No BER - Rental property

Munster_Gal

I've read on one or two sites that if you are not shown a BER cert by the landlord or agency before signing a lease, you can break your lease.......

so .. my question is...

I signed a 12 month lease back in April - at the time I was not shown a BER cert (I was actually unaware that landlords and agencies had to do so). Now that the cold weather has set in I've discovered that the house is freezing! Even with the central heating on and a fire lighting, it's still hard to heat the house up. I've done a search on SEAI.ie and it appears that this house doesn't have a BER cert at all! In about a month we have spend well over €100 buying coal etc to get some comfort. Is this grounds to break my lease? I have emailed the agency twice in regards to it. There is a draft coming in pretty much every window and also the front door - I was hoping they might get someone out to sort it but they haven't responded to me.

bertie1

Even if the landlord gets the BER done , they don't have to remedy any of the issues

Munster_Gal

Thanks for that - but my question was can I break the lease on this basis?

I was going to go ahead and sign another 12 months in April but the cost of heating the place is ridiculous. I have no fire on for the last 2 evenings and I can't get warm.

odds_on

Munster_Gal wrote: »

Thanks for that - but my question was can I break the lease on this basis?

I was going to go ahead and sign another 12 months in April but the cost of heating the place is ridiculous. I have no fire on for the last 2 evenings and I can't get warm.

There have been many threads not only on boards.ie about the issue of there not being shown BER cert before signing a lease makes a lease invalid. This was referring to a document by the Irish Law Society which said

It is the view of the committee that failure to provide a BER certificate before a contract/letting agreement is signed cannot be remedied by a subsequent provision of such certificate unless the purchaser is simultaneously given the opportunity to back out of such contract.

Most people seem to have understood this as a lease will be invalid. Please re-read the above paragraph so that you are not mistaken.

To date, there has not been any court judgement in the matter to set a precedence. So if I were you, I would not put a lot of faith in getting out of a lease via this route - unless you want to try and be a hero and make the first claim in thus respect.

Your only legal escape route is to assign your lease to someone else though it is up to you to find someone. If you fail to do so and the landlord has to find someone, you are liable for the landlord's reasonable expenses and the rent until a new tenant is found.

As regards signing another Fixed Term lease, during the first fixed term lease you acquire the rights of a Part 4 tenancy thus at the end of the fixed term you do not have to sign another fixed term lease and the landlord cannot force you to do so. However, you should advise the landlord between 3 months and 1 month prior to the end of the fixed term lease that you want a Part 4 lease.

The differences being that a fixed term lease is very inflexible for both tenant and landlord - extremely difficult to get out of (especially in winter if the dwelling is cold). Thus, a fixed term lease is very secure if you want to stay the full length of the term.

A Part 4 lease is much more flexible as the tenant may leave after serving the landlord with a Notice of Termination with the appropriate notice period. The down side, from the point of view of the tenant, is that the landlord can also issue a Notice of Termination but only under certain circumstances of which the two easiest for him are, firstly, if he is going to sell the property and secondly, if he requires the property for his own use or that of a family member. Thus, a Part 4 lease is not as secure as a fixed term lease.

I have no fire on for the last 2 evenings and I can't get warm.

Obviously if you are not using any form of heating you will get cold at this time of year. However, if you are out all day and there is no heating on, then the internal walls also get cold and this adds to the problem. Heating should be on at most of the day, even if you are not in the dwelling in order to prevent the walls of the place from getting cold.

Munster_Gal

I have no fire on for the last 2 evenings and I can't get warm.

Obviously if you are not using any form of heating you will get cold at this time of year. However, if you are out all day and there is no heating on, then the internal walls also get cold and this adds to the problem. Heating should be on at most of the day, even if you are not in the dwelling in order to prevent the walls of the place from getting cold.

I should have mentioned that I have oil central heating. It's on a few hours a day but makes no difference. The house isn't retaining the heat. We light the fire to take the chill out of the living room however it doesn't make a difference to the rest of the house

dardhal

odds_on wrote: »

Obviously if you are not using any form of heating you will get cold at this time of year. However, if you are out all day and there is no heating on, then the internal walls also get cold and this adds to the problem. Heating should be on at most of the day, even if you are not in the dwelling in order to prevent the walls of the place from getting cold.

I have to disagree, and even more in this case, where it seems clear that insulation is non-existant or clearly insufficient. If insulation is as poor as it seems, heating the walls while nobody is at home is going to make your bill go up with no real gain in comfort: during the day, the heat gained internally by the walls will be slowly (or quickly) transfer to the outer parts of the walls, and being lost in the environment.

The only thing that somewhat works in places with insulation deficiencies is (if possible) put the heating to maximum power while you are at home, so immediate heat radiation and hot air convection make people in the house feel warmer, but lacking adequate insulation, radiation not stopped by the human body is going to be lost through the walls, and hot air in contact with cold inner walls will transfer heat to them, and then to the outer walls, and then to the outside.

There is very little one can do to improve the situation

Ray Palmer

I think it is weird people go on about there being no insulation in the walls of a house. The majority of houses in Ireland are like this. The method of construction used was effectively to keep water out.

I great beleiver in improving the property you rent but it is an expense that many are not willing to pay. The grant system has been cut so I am really glad I did it as are the tenants.

I would say to any LL if you can get it done and still get the grant from this year do it.

Depending on the house construction heating the house can make a difference to retaining it heat. So both arguements are valid about heating.

One house I own had no insulation but very think walls which actually provided good insulation. The problem was I provided gas to heat so the tenants would disconect the gas as they didn't use the gas during the summer and then wouldn't pay for the reconnection. This meant they had no heating and then would try to heat the place with electric heaters. The building got very cold as a result as the walls were effectively always cold.

As pointed out the BER break clause has yet to be proven and it doesn't mean they have to change anything. I would also add unless you know how to read the information it is not very helpful and actually misleading.

BostonB

I'm I correct in assuming, that unless a house is relatively new and insulated and heated, with scoring high on the BER in mind, it won't do well in a BER. Thats especially true of older properties.

daltonmd

Munster_Gal wrote: »

I've read on one or two sites that if you are not shown a BER cert by the landlord or agency before signing a lease, you can break your lease.......

so .. my question is...

I signed a 12 month lease back in April - at the time I was not shown a BER cert (I was actually unaware that landlords and agencies had to do so). Now that the cold weather has set in I've discovered that the house is freezing! Even with the central heating on and a fire lighting, it's still hard to heat the house up. I've done a search on SEAI.ie and it appears that this house doesn't have a BER cert at all! In about a month we have spend well over €100 buying coal etc to get some comfort. Is this grounds to break my lease? I have emailed the agency twice in regards to it. There is a draft coming in pretty much every window and also the front door - I was hoping they might get someone out to sort it but they haven't responded to me.

Check out threshold.ie. There are minimum requirments/standards that landlords have to comply with.

"Your landlord must, by law, ensure that your home complies with certain minimum standards (e.g. free from damp, in good structural repair, hot and cold water, adequate means of heating and ventilation, appliances in good working order, electrical wiring, gas, pipes in good repair). If your home does not comply with these standards, report it to your local authority or the Private Residential Tenancies Board. An inspection will be carried out and the landlord ordered to do any necessary repairs. Contact Threshold, the Private Residential Tenancies Board or your local authority for further advice"

If you have the heating on and a coal fire and the house is still freezing then this is not adequate, produce your bills and follow the instructions.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

...
If you have the heating on and a coal fire and the house is still freezing then this is not adequate, produce your bills and follow the instructions.

Are you sure I think its actually stated somewhere that "adequate" means there a means of heating in every room. I don't think it defines any temperature range etc.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

Are you sure I think its actually stated somewhere that "adequate" means there a means of heating in every room. I don't think it defines any temperature range etc.

No BB, adequate means that is has to suit the purpose it's designed for.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,19428,en.pdf


"The following will prove compliance with the Regulations:
1. The heat producing appliance is capable of being independently managed by
the tenant.
2. The heat producing appliance is capable of providing effective heat."

Ray Palmer

BostonB wrote: »

Are you sure I think its actually stated somewhere that "adequate" means there a means of heating in every room. I don't think it defines any temperature range etc.

True. It isn't some catch all to say they place doesn't meet an individuals idea of what they consider adequate. A single bar electric heater in a 6 M*6M room would not be consider adquate but the room feels cold doesn't cut it.

Effective heat is not a well defined term and you won't be able to use the idea as a catch all. if it is below -5 and the room is 15 with the heating on that would feel cold but would be adequate heating. Very subjective term.

People really should understand that you are talking about a better standard of property than is in the country to be provided as rental property. It is neither resonable nor likely to happen

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

No BB, adequate means that is has to suit the purpose it's designed for.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,19428,en.pdf


"The following will prove compliance with the Regulations:
1. The heat producing appliance is capable of being independently managed by
the tenant.
2. The heat producing appliance is capable of providing effective heat."

I understand that to mean the appliance must produce heat, as in its working, not that house has to retain it. You are assuming this is implied, if thats correct you have to have some metric to judge it. I mean how do you measure it, if you got 20 people in a room you'd get different opinions on whats hot and cold from them all.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

I understand that to mean the appliance must produce heat, as in its working, not that house has to retain it. You are assuming this is implied, if thats correct you have to have some metric to judge it. I mean how do you measure it, if you got 20 people in a room you'd get different opinions on whats hot and cold from them all.

Not only is it implied but when you add it to "Requirement under Article 5 of the Regulations" it is law.
• That the house shall be maintained in a proper state of structural
repair. A proper state of structural repair is defined as sound,
internally and externally, with roof, roofing tiles and slates, windows,
floors, ceilings, walls, stairs, doors, skirting boards, fascia, tiles on any
floor, ceiling and wall, gutters, down pipes, fittings, furnishings,
gardens and common areas maintained in good condition and repair
and not defective due to dampness or otherwise"

The OP says that the windows and doors are not up to standard then this would appear to be why the house is losing heat.

We're not talking about opinions. If a house is in a bad state of repair and because of this the heating is not retained in the house, then it is not adequate, the tenant has a comeback and the landlord has a legal obligation to bring the property up to standard.

Ray Palmer

daltonmd wrote: »

The OP says that the windows and doors are not up to standard then this would appear to be why the house is losing heat.

We're not talking about opinions. If a house is in a bad state of repair and because of this the heating is not retained in the house, then it is not adequate, the tenant has a comeback and the landlord has a legal obligation to bring the property up to standard.

THe OP didn't say that they said they were draughty which doesn't mean they are not up to standard. There is a difference to say something is not up to standard and that of not as good as double glassing modern windows. Sash windows in good condition can be draughty as can most wooden frame windows. The same applies to doors. A LL is not obliged to have the property to the standard of the best. Your interpretation of the regulations is yours not the PRTBs who inspect and as such know the standard. Good repair doesn't mean the best just not faulty. Draughty does not equal bad repair or inadequate

Riskymove

Munster_Gal wrote: »

I've read on one or two sites that if you are not shown a BER cert by the landlord or agency before signing a lease, you can break your lease.......

Just to clarify, I thought you had the right to see it, rather than be shown it

As you didn't ask, there may be one and it just did not come up

daltonmd

Ray Palmer wrote: »

THe OP didn't say that they said they were draughty which doesn't mean they are not up to standard. There is a difference to say something is not up to standard and that of not as good as double glassing modern windows. Sash windows in good condition can be draughty as can most wooden frame windows. The same applies to doors. A LL is not obliged to have the property to the standard of the best. Your interpretation of the regulations is yours not the PRTBs who inspect and as such know the standard. Good repair doesn't mean the best just not faulty. Draughty does not equal bad repair or inadequate

Well there's what the OP said:
"There is a draft coming in pretty much every window and also the front door"


"Windows & doors
4. The windows are in a proper state of repair and are properly maintained.
5. The doors in any part of the house are not defective and are in good repair and
condition.
6. There is no evidence of dampness or water penetration through the windows or
doors.
7. There is no broken glass in either the windows or doors."

So what you are saying is that if there is a biting wind coming through the windows and doors then that is ok? But if there is water?

Ray, with all due respect I am taking these regulations as a tenant, which are MINIMUM standards and guidelines for my interpretation then so are you as a landlord.

A beautiful sash window that is letting in draughts/rain is a functioning window - but only if you are happy to look out of it.
If a window is gappy or doesn't close properly then it's defective, if a closed door has a major draught then this is also defective.

Why do you think we have BER? Simple - if you get an A or B rating then it costs less to heat - if you get a G there are reasons for this, poor insulation, poor windows and doors and it costs more to heat - giving tenants the choice of where they want to rent.

It is crazy in 2011 that we have MINIMUM requirements and crazier that there are still some landlords who will stay razor sharp to them instead of looking after their properties and their tenants in a correct manner.

Ray Palmer

daltonmd wrote: »

A beautiful sash window that is letting in draughts/rain is a functioning window - but only if you are happy to look out of it etc...

Why do you think we have BER? etc...

You are missunderstanding the fundamental issue. You are expecting race car performance from something that is not a race car. It works it is not deffective it simply doesn't perform to the same standard. The BER is to make an informed decision except it is it is extremely inaccurate and misleading.

Just becasue you have decided what you think the regulations mean doesn't make it so.

From the OP

"There is a draft coming in pretty much every window and also the front door"

They are not claiming they are defective you are!
You have upped the draught comment to " biting wind coming through" again you exagerating.
"A beautiful sash window that is letting in draughts/rain is a functioning" Again no mention of rain you exagerating and making up facts.
"If a window is gappy or doesn't close properly then it's defective,"
Again facts not stated you exagerating. A draughty window does not need to be defective. By your definition every window that doesn't match a modern PVC window is defective as opposed to functioning as designed.

You have completely exagerated the claims made and are wildly exagerating what is a pretty clear document. Having met with the PRTB inspectors I can inform you that you are incorrect. You have interpeted the meaning of the regulations to mean something they simply are not.

Also note I have upgraded my property so am not secretly defending my own actions just pointing out what is actual reality versus made up details.

daltonmd

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You are missunderstanding the fundamental issue. You are expecting race car performance from something that is not a race car. It works it is not deffective it simply doesn't perform to the same standard. The BER is to make an informed decision except it is it is extremely inaccurate and misleading.

Just becasue you have decided what you think the regulations mean doesn't make it so.

From the OP

"There is a draft coming in pretty much every window and also the front door"

They are not claiming they are defective you are!
You have upped the draught comment to " biting wind coming through" again you exagerating.
"A beautiful sash window that is letting in draughts/rain is a functioning" Again no mention of rain you exagerating and making up facts.
"If a window is gappy or doesn't close properly then it's defective,"
Again facts not stated you exagerating. A draughty window does not need to be defective. By your definition every window that doesn't match a modern PVC window is defective as opposed to functioning as designed.

You have completely exagerated the claims made and are wildly exagerating what is a pretty clear document. Having met with the PRTB inspectors I can inform you that you are incorrect. You have interpeted the meaning of the regulations to mean something they simply are not.

Also note I have upgraded my property so am not secretly defending my own actions just pointing out what is actual reality versus made up details.

Sorry, this is what you said.
"THe OP didn't say that they said they were draughty" .
And I posted what the OP said.

You have a real bee in your bonnet. I didn't exaggerate anything, I merely put your logic on it's head.
If something does not work then it is defective, if a (front) door is letting in draughts then it can let in rain, the same goes for windows.

The OP has stated that she finds it very difficult to heat the house she is in, she includes the state of the windows and doors, not for the fun of it, but to emphasise the extent of the problem that she has.


"It works it is not deffective it simply doesn't perform to the same standard."

If a window is letting in draughts then it is letting out heat. The function of a window is to provide light. If a window is letting in draughts then it can let in rain leading to damp.

Not sure what is difficult here Ray but I'm going to leave it at that with you.

BostonB

Its going to make it difficult claiming a house has problems when you been in it since April and your only noticing its a problem in Dec. If you break the contract now, and say it goes to the PRTB how are you going to demonstrate to the PRTB that the house is impossible to heat, and that its drafty.

If you can collect evidence of it, and the lack of response to problems, then I'd give notice then. otherwise its going to be hard to break the contract.

Pretty much any house that doesn't have double glazed windows and doors is probably going to have some draughts, if its 10yrs+ old. This is why if you want to avoid this, you pick a newish build with these features and a good ber. Of course thats going to exclude a lot of rental property and will probably be reflected in the rent you pay.

Ray Palmer

daltonmd wrote: »

I didn't exaggerate anything, I merely put your logic on it's head..

You exagerated early on a repeatedly.

Your view doessn't matter it is not the standard used no matter what you think. Letting in a draught does not mean it will let in rain. A door being draughty does not mean it is defective nor poor repair. You just simply don't understand the basics of what the regulations are stating.

Munster_Gal

The agency has decided to send out their repair guy after initially saying that they weren't going to as they feel the cold weather is the problem not the house.

The is a draught coming in the front door, back door and 2 bedroom windows! In fact there is a gap in one bedroom window that i can get my finger into! some of the handles are also defective.

I've taken pictures of all of these and will wait for the repair guy to look at it Monday - although he's not going to be much good, he's their general repair guy, not someone who deals with pvc windows and doors.

Yes I've been in the house since April - but the weather hasn't been all that cold until now and we haven't had the high winds etc!

I've sent an email to threshold with my concerns also.

BostonB

Considering the last two winters. Looking for decent windows and doors would kind be high on my list.

You can get tape to fill in gaps in doors, put a draft snake behind it.

Heavy curtains, close fit to the wall can really cut down on drafts too. But thats something the LL would have to do.

Munster_Gal

BostonB wrote: »

Considering the last two winters. Looking for decent windows and doors would kind be high on my list.

You can get tape to fill in gaps in doors, put a draft snake behind it.

Heavy curtains, close fit to the wall can really cut down on drafts too. But thats something the LL would have to do.

The windows are double glazing. Plus in the middle of April it wasn't possible to check for draughts! We're not asking for miracles, just that the LL takes their responsibility seriously instead of fobbing us off. I've worked for a company that deals in PVC windows and doors and new hinges would make a massive difference.

I was also unaware at the time of taking the lease that the BER cert was a requirement for both properties for sale and rent! The fact that they haven't even got one combined with the fact that they're not too eager to have the windows even looked at concerns me!

Munster_Gal

Riskymove wrote: »

Munster_Gal wrote: »

I've read on one or two sites that if you are not shown a BER cert by the landlord or agency before signing a lease, you can break your lease.......

Just to clarify, I thought you had the right to see it, rather than be shown it

As you didn't ask, there may be one and it just did not come up

There isn't one. I've checked SEAI.ie.
And from reading up in it, it's not the tenants responsibility to ask for the BER. They should be given a copy of it before agreeing to the lease

Marcusm

Munster_Gal wrote: »

There isn't one. I've checked SEAI.ie.
And from reading up in it, it's not the tenants responsibility to ask for the BER. They should be given a copy of it before agreeing to the lease

MunsterGal,

It goes further than that; the landlord or his agent has an obligation to provide a copy of the BER cert to any who "expresses an interest" in letting the property. Many agents refuse to even show a property until the BER cert has been obtained as they don't wish to contravene the law (si 666 of 2006).

I'm not sure what your relationship with the landlord is like but perhaps you could have a quiet word with him/her. They have committed an offence which could result in a fine of €5,000 although undoubtedly no one actually enforces the law. Perhaps they'll let you out of the lease or make some modificationsrather than risk being reported.

odds_on

Marcusm wrote: »

MunsterGal,

It goes further than that; the landlord or his agent has an obligation to provide a copy of the BER cert to any who "expresses an interest" in letting the property. Many agents refuse to even show a property until the BER cert has been obtained as they don't wish to contravene the law (si 666 of 2006).

I'm not sure what your relationship with the landlord is like but perhaps you could have a quiet word with him/her. They have committed an offence which could result in a fine of €5,000 although undoubtedly no one actually enforces the law. Perhaps they'll let you out of the lease or make some modificationsrather than risk being reported.

I am house hunting and I find that very few agents actually even know the BER rating, let alone the possibility of seeing a certificate. An explanation from one estate agent was that the vendor does not want to get the BER done until the house is sold (and a BER cert is valid for up to 10 years!).

To me, a BER rating is very important as the difference between heating costs for a G or F rating is way too expensive compared to a C 1 rating (in the region of 1,500 per year and over 10 years, that's 15k)= - and I'd be looking for a very substantial reduction in the price of the property.

daltonmd

Munster_Gal wrote: »

The windows are double glazing. Plus in the middle of April it wasn't possible to check for draughts! We're not asking for miracles, just that the LL takes their responsibility seriously instead of fobbing us off. I've worked for a company that deals in PVC windows and doors and new hinges would make a massive difference.

I was also unaware at the time of taking the lease that the BER cert was a requirement for both properties for sale and rent! The fact that they haven't even got one combined with the fact that they're not too eager to have the windows even looked at concerns me!

MG, you are entitled to be comfortable in your home. Sticking tape around a gap is NOT an acceptable solution. It's about standards that have to be met and they are there for a reason.
Of course LL's will interpret them as they will as will tenants, but when you are paying for a service and not getting it then you have a right to insist that the property is functioning as your home.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Marcusm

odds_on wrote: »

I am house hunting and I find that very few agents actually even know the BER rating, let alone the possibility of seeing a certificate. An explanation from one estate agent was that the vendor does not want to get the BER done until the house is sold (and a BER cert is valid for up to 10 years!).

To me, a BER rating is very important as the difference between heating costs for a G or F rating is way too expensive compared to a C 1 rating (in the region of 1,500 per year and over 10 years, that's 15k)= - and I'd be looking for a very substantial reduction in the price of the property.

Not sure if you are looking to buy or rent but it should not make a difference. "ExpressEs an interest" is a very low standard. Realistically Tge agent should realise that it (the agent) is almost certainly in breach of the law. Tge vendor/landlord is not a "professional" do may have dome level if excuse. I agree with you that the range of heating costs is in the multiples and thus is one of the few sensible pieces of law. By way of compRison, it would be highly unusual for a UK agent not you have a BER included on its website and printed details. The rules are substantially the same, deriving from an EU regulation.

BostonB

Munster_Gal wrote: »

The windows are double glazing. Plus in the middle of April it wasn't possible to check for draughts! We're not asking for miracles, just that the LL takes their responsibility seriously instead of fobbing us off. I've worked for a company that deals in PVC windows and doors and new hinges would make a massive difference....

It took you months to notice a finger sized gap. I would assume all it would take is a windy day to notice that, regardless of the time of the yet, even if you didn't actually see it. Especially if you have some experience with windows and doors.

But Does it really matter. If you want to break the lease, why not simply tell the agent you'll be moving out as they've not responded to any requests from you to fix the problems. Then go rent a place with the ber rating you want.

odds_on

BostonB wrote: »

It took you months to notice a finger sized gap. I would assume all it would take is a windy day to notice that, regardless of the time of the yet, even if you didn't actually see it. Especially if you have some experience with windows and doors.

But Does it really matter. If you want to break the lease, why not simply tell the agent you'll be moving out as they've not responded to any requests from you to fix the problems. Then go rent a place with the ber rating you want.

I don't really understand why landlords who would have a good BER rating (say C1 and above) don't have a BER cert as it should make it easier to rent their property and possibly at a higher rate - explaining that the tenant will be saving on their monthly/annual heating costs.