Formula 1 2012: General Discussion Thread

Jordan 199

counterlock wrote: »

Not really true, he really bent over backwards for Honda, getting Sato in and as far as I remember, his two points in Japan lifted them ahead of BAR. I think the decline was when they lost the mugen. When they were given the works engines along with BAR, there was only ever going to be one winner.

I think myself that Honda forced EJ to take on Sato in order for Honda to keep supplying engines to Jordan.

Reminds me of Williams & Honda in 1987. Honda said to Williams that if Williams wanted to keep the Honda engines for 1988, they would have to take on Satoru Nakajima who would partner Nigel Mansell for the 1988 season.

Frank Wiliams told Honda in no uncertain terms to get lost and Williams lost the Honda engines and had to make do with normally aspirated Judd V8's for the '88 season.

Nakajima ended up in Lotus in '88 alongside Piquet.

Nurburgring bankrupt, wonder what that'll do for next season.

Jordan 199

Deleted User wrote: »

Nurburgring bankrupt, wonder what that'll do for next season.

I guess they'll keep the German GP at Hockenheim.

**** that, have a race at Imola :pac:

counterlock

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I think myself that Honda forced EJ to take on Sato in order for Honda to keep supplying engines to Jordan.

Reminds me of Williams & Honda in 1987. Honda said to Williams that if Williams wanted to keep the Honda engines for 1988, they would have to take on Satoru Nakajima who would partner Nigel Mansell for the 1988 season.

Frank Wiliams told Honda in no uncertain terms to get lost and Williams lost the Honda engines and had to make do with normally aspirated Judd V8's for the '88 season.

Nakajima ended up in Lotus in '88 alongside Piquet.

That didn't end too well for Williams either! I was delighted to see them win again this year.

AFAIK Jordan sold the team to MF1 for about half of what they sold it on for, due to there being a dispute over a new concorde agreement at the time when he sold. Looking back at the 2004 grid only sauber (gone and back), mclaren, williams and ferrari are still on the grid today

Jordan 199

counterlock wrote: »

That didn't end too well for Williams either! I was delighted to see them win again this year.

AFAIK Jordan sold the team to MF1 for about half of what they sold it on for, due to there being a dispute over a new concorde agreement at the time when he sold. Looking back at the 2004 grid only sauber (gone and back), mclaren, williams and ferrari are still on the grid today

Yeah, '88 was a bad year for Williams, but they managed to get the Renault motors for '89 and started to win again.

The owner of the Midland F1 team made a nice profit when he sold the team to Spyker.

As for the grid today, Force India. Don't forget they have Jordan DNA as EJ would tell you

PJTierney

I guess it depends on what's going on with endurance racing.

Audi are there right now.
Porsche will be soon.

Maybe VW would be what the F1 engines are badged as?

As Toyota (and to an extent Mercedes) have shown, it's probably a better idea to enter F1 as an engine supplier first before jumping in as a works team. Mercedes were with McLaren and others for over a decade before Merc became a works team and they're doing okay. Toyota went in at the deep end and failed.

counterlock

Jordan 191 wrote: »

As for the grid today, Force India. Don't forget they have Jordan DNA as EJ would tell you

They are as much Jordan as Torro Rosso is minardi imho and Mallya is a jerk. As soon as kingfisher folds, he'll be looking to sell the team on, wouldn't it be great for EJ to buy it back off him

Jordan 199

OSI wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised to see them bring the Porsche name in to F1, it's been rumored fairly recently.

VW don't own Porsche, but Porsche are the biggest shareholders in VW and have the majority voting rights on the VW board.

They'll be back in LeMans in 2014. Also on top of that, if Porsche were to build F1 engines, they may get an outside source to fund the project like TAG funded Porsche to build the turbo engines that McLaren used in the 80's.

PJTierney wrote: »

I guess it depends on what's going on with endurance racing.

Audi are there right now.
Porsche will be soon.

Maybe VW would be what the F1 engines are badged as?

I'm not so sure. VW are entering the WRC this year with the VW name, Audi name is in endurance racing, so I think if VW remain in those racing categories, they may choose a different brand for F1.

As Toyota (and to an extent Mercedes) have shown, it's probably a better idea to enter F1 as an engine supplier first before jumping in as a works team. Mercedes were with McLaren and others for over a decade before Merc became a works team and they're doing okay. Toyota went in at the deep end and failed.

Toyota were linked with Arrows in the late 90's.

vectra

Jordan 191 wrote: »

VW don't own Porsche, but Porsche are the biggest shareholders in VW and have the majority voting rights on the VW board.

Are you sure about that?

Then again, This could be all just talk :P

Volkswagen stepped up its efforts to become the world's number-one carmaker on Thursday by buying up the remaining part of Porsche that it did not already own, and in the process ended an epic takeover struggle between the two German brands.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/05/volkswagen-buys-porsche

Jordan 199

vectra wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

Then again, This could be all just talk :P

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/05/volkswagen-buys-porsche

I was wrong so

Infoanon

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I was wrong so

Not completely - won't bore you all but basically Porsche became the most financially successful car maker of all time and 'could' have bought out VW - But 85% of its profit was from financial instruments.

F1 has being trying to lure VW since the '80s if not earlier but does F1 need VW ?? look at recent history - BMW / Toyota / Honda - all billion dollar failures and arguably F1 is better without them

The Porsche '84 engine was funded and was designed within specific John Barnard parameters.

The Porsche V12 used by Arrows on the other hand was an over weight disaster.

On the Lamborghini V12 - Ayrton Senna tested it and wanted to use it in place of the Ford V8s but it never came to pass

Infoanon

PJTierney wrote: »

As Toyota (and to an extent Mercedes) have shown, it's probably a better idea to enter F1 as an engine supplier first before jumping in as a works team. Mercedes were with McLaren and others for over a decade before Merc became a works team and they're doing okay. Toyota went in at the deep end and failed.

The 'Mercedes' engine was in fact an ilmor badged as a Mercedes.

Infoanon

Infoanon wrote: »

The 'Mercedes' engine was in fact an ilmor badged as a Mercedes.

Would love to know how much Bernie had to do with Ilmor.

Jordan 199

Infoanon wrote: »

The Porsche V12 used by Arrows on the other hand was an over weight disaster.

I read it weighed 180kg :eek: They were so bad that Arrows dumped them during the '91 season.

On the Lamborghini V12 - Ayrton Senna tested it and wanted to use it in place of the Ford V8s but it never came to pass

Indeed. McLaren opted for the Peugeot's and that deal was terminated after one season.

With McLaren rejecting the Lambo's, Larousse were to get them back for '94, but Chrysler sold Lamborghini to an Indonesian consortium who had no interest in F1. Larousse had to make do with Ford HB2 V8 motors for the '94 season.

Here's Senna testing the McLaren with the Lamborghini powerplant at Estoril in 1993:



Those Lambo engines had Chrysler badges on them for the test.

Jordan 199

^ What is that pic doing in this thread then, Buttonftw?

It's Kimi from last weekend :P

vectra

Deleted User wrote: »

It's Kimi from last weekend :P

LOL

recyclebin

Can someone explain the kimi pictures for me? I'm not in on the joke. Did kimi do something in Germany?

Ghost Train

http://wtf1.co.uk/i-swear-to-drunk-im-not-god-kimis-fall-gets-photoshopped/

Kxiii

Ghost Train wrote: »

http://wtf1.co.uk/i-swear-to-drunk-im-not-god-kimis-fall-gets-photoshopped/

I saw this on the same site, made me laugh

Jordan 199

Does anyone know what the air and track temperatures were for the race in Hockenheim last Sunday?

Need them so I can see how the McLaren performs in different temperatures.

mb1725

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the air and track temperatures were for the race in Hockenheim last Sunday?

Need them so I can see how the McLaren performs in different temperatures.

Track - 33 degrees, air 21 degrees. According to GP Update http://www.gpupdate.net/en/livefeed/5975/1670/

Goldstein

So sick of hearing about the bloody tyres. "look after your tyres" = hold back. I want to see them driving full tilt on every lap like they always did - This slow and steady wins the race mentality we've had the last few years just feels all wrong. They're supposed to be the best drivers in the world - let them show it and let us watch it.

As for the "it makes it more exciting" argument, putting missiles on the cars would make it more exciting too but it doesn't mean they should do it.

Step 1: Get rid of the crap circuits where overtaking is almost impossible - Valencia, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi & Singapore - the night time novelty gets old fast when there's nothing interesting happening. Everyone likes Monaco but beyond the celebs and bling it's consistently the worst races of the year unless it's raining and there are loads of incidents - not a single on track overtake this year. I know it has to stay but they have to tweak/widen the circuit to at least have a remote possibility of overtaking.

Cookie_Monster

Goldstein wrote: »

So sick of hearing about the bloody tyres. "look after your tyres" = hold back. I want to see them driving full tilt on every lap like they always did - This slow and steady wins the race mentality we've had the last few years just feels all wrong. They're supposed to be the best drivers in the world - let them show it and let us watch it.

As for the "it makes it more exciting" argument, putting missiles on the cars would make it more exciting too but it doesn't mean they should do it.

+1, crappy tyres have a lot to answer for this year.
it doesn't make it more exciting either, it ruins races.

To a certain extent it's the same with the rules making engines etc last. Get rid of them, we want full tilt racing, engines dramatically blowing up etc.

muckwarrior

Yes, lets go back to the days when 99% of overtaking was done in the pit lane. That was real racing!

Ghost Train

Goldstein wrote: »

So sick of hearing about the bloody tyres. "look after your tyres" = hold back. I want to see them driving full tilt on every lap like they always did - This slow and steady wins the race mentality we've had the last few years just feels all wrong. They're supposed to be the best drivers in the world - let them show it and let us watch it.

As for the "it makes it more exciting" argument, putting missiles on the cars would make it more exciting too but it doesn't mean they should do it.

Step 1: Get rid of the crap circuits where overtaking is almost impossible - Valencia, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi & Singapore - the night time novelty gets old fast when there's nothing interesting happening. Everyone likes Monaco but beyond the celebs and bling it's consistently the worst races of the year unless it's raining and there are loads of incidents - not a single on track overtake this year. I know it has to stay but they have to tweak/widen the circuit to at least have a remote possibility of overtaking.

did you watch the Valencia race this year?

I think it's great that tyres are a factor again, way it should be. Although extra set of tyres might be a help

Plenty of entertaining monaco races wet and dry over the years

vectra

Ghost Train wrote: »

did you watch the Valencia race this year?

I think it's great that tyres are a factor again, way it should be. Although extra set of tyres might be a help

Plenty of entertaining monaco races wet and dry over the years

Not sure about the extra set of tyres.. That way it would be a case of driving flat out all the time regardless.. Then it would a simple case of "The Fastest cars win"
Not much to do with driving skills and tactics.

PJTierney

Isn't that what happened in 2010? The Bridgestones were rock hard and Vettel did a full race distance on the Options at Monza on them. The Championship battle may have been interesting but the races themselves were significantly less so.

The issue I see with F1 at the moment is that it's extremely difficult to follow another car. Once you're a second behind any closer and you're riding in turbulent air, which disrupts the aerodynamic performance of your car, which in turn chews up the Pirellis faster and forces the chaser to drop back. At several points in Hungary for example you'd see a Lotus catch up to Hamilton, drop back, then catch up again. Raikkonen in particular was much faster at certain points, but because of how the cars are at the moment he couldn't possibly get near enough for a pass without destroying his race.

This fundamental flaw in car design is what's preventing the cars from truly getting close and battling with each other, and as such we're resorting to "livening up the show" with deliberately bad tyres and DRS.

frostie500

Just to let you all know that I have started selling prints of photos taken at the various races I've been to this season. The photos range from F1 to MotoGP to NASCAR and sportscars and I have shots of pretty much every driver/rider in those series from a variety of races so just ask for whatever driver you want and I can send you on any applicable picture and then just pick your favourite!

The photos are 16x12 inches and come in a variety of frames and are priced at €90 including P&P within Ireland but for anyone on the forum looking to buy the prints there's a discount! Below are a couple of examples of how they look once their printed off with the start of the Spanish GP and Jorge Lorenzo's "Black Mamba" helmet design.

Let me know if anyone has any interest!

recyclebin

€90.....ouch

frostie500

recyclebin wrote: »

€90.....ouch

Like I said in the MotoGP thread it's cheaper that what most of the photographers charge for their work from race, most are well in excess of 100, with some over 300. Like I said there's a boardsie rate as well and Id be pretty flexible with everyone on the forums.

It costs me about 5 or 600 quid to get to most races in Euroe-and a lot more to get to Daytone, Sebring and Qatar- so I need to try and raise the funds somehow! If anyone is interested though PM me what you think is a fair price and I'll see what I can do.

freestyla

frostie500 wrote: »

Like I said in the MotoGP thread it's cheaper that what most of the photographers charge for their work from race, most are well in excess of 100, with some over 300. Like I said there's a boardsie rate as well and Id be pretty flexible with everyone on the forums.

It costs me about 5 or 600 quid to get to most races in Euroe-and a lot more to get to Daytone, Sebring and Qatar- so I need to try and raise the funds somehow! If anyone is interested though PM me what you think is a fair price and I'll see what I can do.

Did you look at possibility to print them out in different sizes? not only 16x12 inches.
Poster size without frames?

frostie500

freestyla wrote: »

Did you look at possibility to print them out in different sizes? not only 16x12 inches.
Poster size without frames?

Yeah the examples I used were 16*12 mainly because that's what I have hanging on my wall! I think for a framed photo they're probably the best size but I can get them printed as any other size with or without the frame

cadaliac

Anyone think KIMI will go to Ferarri? Seems like Ferarri aren't playing down the sugestions according to some press reports....
What way would Alonso treat him?

Jordan 199

cadaliac wrote: »

Anyone think KIMI will go to Ferarri? Seems like Ferarri aren't playing down the sugestions according to some press reports....
What way would Alonso treat him?

Nope, I don't think Kimi will go to Ferrari. Should he partner Alonso at Ferrari, I can see Alonso beating him. Also, Kimi wants to be the number one driver in a team, not number two.

I'd say Kimi is happy where he is, the Lotus is a quick and if they get their double DRS sorted, he should win a race or two this season. He's their leading driver at the moment and he's happy to be that.

vectra

cadaliac wrote: »

Anyone think KIMI will go to Ferarri? Seems like Ferarri aren't playing down the sugestions according to some press reports....
What way would Alonso treat him?

Why would Kimi play second fiddle to Alonso?

They want a re-run of the Schuie era.

iDave

Kimi and De Montezemello dont get on so i doubt it will happen

vectra

As we are on the Kimi subject,
Anyone think he will win at Spa?
Also
Anyone have serious notions that he could win the wdc this year?

Looking at throwing €10 on him for a win 6/1 for spa

12/1 for wdc.

If my maths are right ( Not used to gambling )

€10 @ 6/1 = €70

€70 @ 12/1 = €910

counterlock

vectra wrote: »

As we are on the Kimi subject,
Anyone think he will win at Spa?
Also
Anyone have serious notions that he could win the wdc this year?

Looking at throwing €10 on him for a win 6/1 for spa

12/1 for wdc.

If my maths are right ( Not used to gambling )

€10 @ 6/1 = €70

€70 @ 12/1 = €910

Gp3 driver rob cregan said they will be very quick at spa. Personally, I wouldn't bet him to win the wdc but might have a punt on him and grosjeon ew in spa

High temperatures and sunshine in Spa and Monza and Kimi will be near the top heading to Asia. Lotus' tyre advantage should help in Spa as well. As long as they get into the top 10 in Qualifying they should have almost a spare stint in hand at the start based on how the tyres were last year.

frostie500

vectra wrote: »

As we are on the Kimi subject,
Anyone think he will win at Spa?
Also
Anyone have serious notions that he could win the wdc this year?

Looking at throwing €10 on him for a win 6/1 for spa

12/1 for wdc.

He's always been mega at Spa and the Lotus is a very quick car in race trim, I would say the fastest last time out in Hungary, also in the wet it has been impressive. At Monaco I was very impressed by the traction that Grosjean had out of the chicane in the wet sessions so if there's changeable conditions it could be a very good chance for Lotus.

Anyone else heading over to Spa this year?

Cashel Mc

Anyone else heading over to Spa this year?[/QUOTE]


I'm going , can't wait:)

frostie500

frostie500 wrote: »

He's always been mega at Spa and the Lotus is a very quick car in race trim, I would say the fastest last time out in Hungary, also in the wet it has been impressive. At Monaco I was very impressed by the traction that Grosjean had out of the chicane in the wet sessions so if there's changeable conditions it could be a very good chance for Lotus.

I find it slightly odd how Lotus need high temperatures to get a tyre advantage over the rest yet are also so good in the wet. Maybe it's just that they have a really wide window of performance in general while everyone else has a much narrower one. At Hungary, fair enough Button's strategy was poor and he was slower anyway but it was obvious the McLaren was nowhere near as good in race trim compared to qualifying but Hamilton having track position on that track of all meant it didn't need to be that quick.

As for the championship, Alonso at evens is ridiculous IMO and Kimi can still be found at 16s which is incredible.

the culture of deference

Cashel Mc wrote: »

Anyone else heading over to Spa this year?

I'm going , can't wait:)[/QUOTE]


You lucky B******

the culture of deference

vectra wrote: »

As we are on the Kimi subject,
Anyone think he will win at Spa?
Also
Anyone have serious notions that he could win the wdc this year?

Looking at throwing €10 on him for a win 6/1 for spa

12/1 for wdc.

If my maths are right ( Not used to gambling )

€10 @ 6/1 = €70

€70 @ 12/1 = €910

I may join you on that bet.kimi not too far off, 2 or 3 wins and Grosjean up their with him and Mclaren getting 3rd and 4th's could make the 2nd half of season interesting.

Jordan 199

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it slightly odd how Lotus need high temperatures to get a tyre advantage over the rest yet are also so good in the wet. Maybe it's just that they have a really wide window of performance in general while everyone else has a much narrower one. At Hungary, fair enough Button's strategy was poor and he was slower anyway but it was obvious the McLaren was nowhere near as good in race trim compared to qualifying but Hamilton having track position on that track of all meant it didn't need to be that quick.

The Lotus sure is a quick car in the heat. I think if they run their double DRS at Spa, it should give them a bit more speed, imparticular down the Kemmel straight where the cars hit top speed.

The second part of the season is going to be interesting. Ferrari are going to bring upgrades to Spa and Monza, and McLaren are contemplating double DRS.

counterlock

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

+1, crappy tyres have a lot to answer for this year.
it doesn't make it more exciting either, it ruins races.

To a certain extent it's the same with the rules making engines etc last. Get rid of them, we want full tilt racing, engines dramatically blowing up etc.

Just on this point, it is the easiest job in the world to fix. You change back to the old point system and reduce the pit crew to a maximum of 8.

The system at the moment rewards reliability and it means that if you get any bit of a significant lead in the championship, you can stroll home in third and fourth and win the championship if the other guy gets one DNF.

The pit crew thing is a no brainer. If you watch the nascar pit stops, you'll see how exciting it is and you'll really get to see who is the best crew.

counterlock

counterlock wrote: »

Just on this point, it is the easiest job in the world to fix. You change back to the old point system and reduce the pit crew to a maximum of 8.

The system at the moment rewards reliability and it means that if you get any bit of a significant lead in the championship, you can stroll home in third and fourth and win the championship if the other guy gets one DNF.

The pit crew thing is a no brainer. If you watch the nascar pit stops, you'll see how exciting it is and you'll really get to see who is the best crew.

Which points system? 10-8-6...? Changing to that and the standings would be roughly

Alonso 65
Vettel 50
Webber 49
Kimi 48
Hamilton 45

...which would be as tight overall and actually slightly tighter at the top, Alonso would have a lead of 1.5 wins whereas now he has a lead of 40 points of 1.6 wins. It's not a huge difference.

Under 10-6-4... it'd be

Alonso 52
webber 35
Vettel 34
Hamilton 34
Kimi 30

So under this Alonso would be 1.7 wins ahead, slightly bigger advantage over the nearest competitors but again mad tight with Kimi the only one who'd be much worse off.