Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

Equity = market value - mortgage outstanding.

You assume it is a positive number.

If the owner is 50 euro in positive equity, they will pay the tax on the property.

If the owner is 10k in negative, they will pay the charge.

How is that a valid taxation item?

I think most people would assume that wealth is derived from positive equity, and not the absense of said equity? But yes. Yes I do.

What's the equity in your car (once you bother to tax it again)? You feel it shouldn't be a taxable asset because it's worth less than you paid for it?

Again - we don't know what waivers will apply when the actual, tiered rates come into play. It may well be the case that those in negative equity will be exempt. Again - most people in negative equity will not remain in negative equity for ever, and the vast majority of home owners are currently not in negative equity.

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

And you could become the face of the arrogant, uncaring F.G. party. The one we all know well, "we are in power and you will do as we tell you and be happy with what we allow you to have".
Afraid not though.

You'd be doing yourself a big favour if you got over this sort of ****e.

I, for one, have never voted for FG. I didn't vote for the last lot either. Some of us just don't share your position - learn to accept the fact.

mikom

gurramok wrote: »

Lower wages in the UK for a lot of jobs.

Including their government.

Potential-Monke

alastair wrote: »

Again - we don't know what waivers will apply when the actual, tiered rates come into play. It may well be the case that those in negative equity will be exempt. Again - most people in negative equity will not remain in negative equity for ever, and the vast majority of home owners are currently not in negative equity.

This is my reason for not paying so far. Why can't they do that now? I said it already, i have no problem paying relative to my property (of which i am also in negative equity, but not as much as others), i have no problem paying for water (as long as it's drinkable and not full of lime, destroying my taps/showers/kettles), etc, etc. But, as it stands, the government want me to willingly sign up to a charge which they are free to increase year on year without any actual plan. They say it will eventually lead to a tiered rate, but when?

If they said to me that i pay €100 this year, €100 next year, and then it will be based on property value every eyar after that, i would pay it. But what's stopping them from increasing it to €2000 next year? They probably won't, but they could, and i'm not willingly signing up to something that doesn't give me a definitive amount of what i'm going to end up paying.

gurramok

mikom wrote: »

Including their government.

True and for many workers alike. From the table, alot of our workforce who pay less tax than their UK equivalents can well afford to pay 100quid plus water charges when they come. http://www.kearon.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IRL-UK-tax-comparison-2012-rates.pdf

mikom

Potential-Monke wrote: »

If they said to me that i pay €100 this year, €100 next year, and then it will be based on property value every eyar after that, i would pay it. But what's stopping them from increasing it to €2000 next year?

Nothing.
They will treat this like a tap they can turn on every time they wish to fund some bloated government body rather than cut the excesses.

alastair

Potential-Monke wrote: »

This is my reason for not paying so far. Why can't they do that now? I said it already, i have no problem paying relative to my property (of which i am also in negative equity, but not as much as others), i have no problem paying for water (as long as it's drinkable and not full of lime, destroying my taps/showers/kettles), etc, etc. But, as it stands, the government want me to willingly sign up to a charge which they are free to increase year on year without any actual plan. They say it will eventually lead to a tiered rate, but when?

If they said to me that i pay €100 this year, €100 next year, and then it will be based on property value every eyar after that, i would pay it. But what's stopping them from increasing it to €2000 next year? They probably won't, but they could, and i'm not willingly signing up to something that doesn't give me a definitive amount of what i'm going to end up paying.

You don't know what any tax rates will be down the line. This one is no different in that regard. And tbh - you don't get to pick and choose which other taxes you like, so why believe you can with this one? You say you're in favour of the water tax - but we don't know what that's going to cost us either.

If you don't like it - vote for the crowd that promise to get rid of it when they get into power.

darkmaster2

Did anyone else hear the FG/government shill with Tom Dunne on Newstalk ringing up from 'Lismore' ? telling us we all have to pay this charge. hahahahaha They are really getting desperate now..


Oh, and answer to the OP's question. NO NO NO


Thanks

alastair

darkmaster2 wrote: »

Did anyone else hear the FG/government shill with Tom Dunne on Newstalk ringing up from 'Lismore' ? telling us we all have to pay this charge. hahahahaha They are really getting desperate now..

Thing is - we do.

Don't register - pay later.

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

Have fun driving the car around the garden

I thought you were saying there is a tax for owning a car, my mistake.

Unlike you, I'm happy to pay my way in this society

Your assumption. If you dont pay this tax, you didnt pay your way.

and I'm well able to apply critical analysis as to what's just or not.

Its still an opinion.

A property tax is a sensible module in a sustainable revenue scenario. That's why its a model commonly applied worldwide.

So its not a positive equity tax, its a tax based on other countries also having it.

darkmaster2

alastair wrote: »

Thing is - we do.

Don't register - pay later.

Not a Hope boy. And nobody else I know is going to either.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Don't register - pay later.

Sounds good - another battle.

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

I thought you were saying there is a tax for owning a car, my mistake.

There's an obvious exemption for garden ornaments.
Convert your home to a rollercoaster and you'll get the same deal.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Convert your home to a rollercoaster and you'll get the same deal.

You need a licence and safety clearance cert for that.
Too much blue red tape.

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

So its not a positive equity tax, its a tax based on other countries also having it.

Its a property tax - and a model of taxation that has proved successful for pretty much every other country. But they may well have all got it wrong. Just like those who take their cars out on the roads.

Potential-Monke

alastair wrote: »

You don't know what any tax rates will be down the line. This one is no different in that regard. And tbh - you don't get to pick and choose which other taxes you like, so why believe you can with this one? You say you're in favour of the water tax - but we don't know what that's going to cost us either.

If you don't like it - vote for the crowd that promise to get rid of it when they get into power.

But if i knew it was going to be on a % rather than a flat rate, decided by someone with more money than knowledge of average wage income, it would be easier to accept.

And i could choose certain taxes i don't want to pay by not having the item/service which can be taxed, ie: motorbike motor tax, life insurance, pension, etc.

mikom

Potential-Monke wrote: »

And i could choose certain taxes i don't want to pay by not having the item/service which can be taxed, ie: motorbike motor tax, life insurance, pension, etc.

Countdown to a shill telling you you have the option to rent in .....5.......4.....3....

Frank Black

I reckon if you -

Disregarded all posts that describe pro-property tax posters as 'Goverenment Shills'.
Disregard any post which brags about the current numbers who haven't registered.
Disregard any post which says we should tell the Bankers/IMF/Germans/Bondholders to **** off without proposing an alternative;

You'd be left with about a hundred anti-household tax posts in a 5,000 post thread.

alastair

Potential-Monke wrote: »

But if i knew it was going to be on a % rather than a flat rate, decided by someone with more money than knowledge of average wage income, it would be easier to accept.

And i could choose certain taxes i don't want to pay by not having the item/service which can be taxed, ie: motorbike motor tax, life insurance, pension, etc.

You can rent - perfectly viable alternative to owning.
It's already been made clear that it won't be a flat rate - we just don't know the mechanism that will be used for devising the tiers. I'd have preferred the tiered system from the get-go, but I've no reason to believe that they would opt for a higher flat rate in preference for a tiered system - which should bring higher revenues.

mikom

black francis wrote: »

I reckon if you -

Disregarded all posts that describe pro-property tax posters as 'Goverenment Shills'.
Disregard any post which brags about the current numbers who haven't registered.
Disregard any post which says we should tell the Bankers/IMF/Germans/Bondholders to **** off without proposing an alternative;

You'd be left with about a hundred anti-household tax posts in a 5,000 post thread.

About the same percentage as the amount who have signed up for the household charge so far.......

Odats

Was talking to the mother this morning and both parents are OAP's. Mam doesn't want to pay it but my Dad being a worrier and the threat of court action just wants to pay it. So they are just going to pay it now. It is terrible scaremongering people into this position.

alastair

mikom wrote: »

About the same percentage as the amount who have signed up for the household charge so far.......

Don't register - pay later.

Potential-Monke

mikom wrote: »

Countdown to a shill telling you you have the option to rent in .....5.......4.....3....

I was renting, and i decided to buy as the repayments were only €100 a month more than what i was paying in rent. Then, a few years later i find out that i'm going to end up paying a helluva lot more all of a sudden. If i could rewind time, i would not have bought knowing this.

darkmaster2

alastair wrote: »

Don't register - pay later.

Don't Register - Abolish the whole fiasco

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Don't register - pay later.

No roots - just rent.

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

I think most people would assume that wealth is derived from positive equity, and not the absense of said equity? But yes. Yes I do.

But the tax is not based on equity what so ever. Its you that claims it is. The tier system will be almost certainly based on market value. Not equity.

What's the equity in your car (once you bother to tax it again)? You feel it shouldn't be a taxable asset because it's worth less than you paid for it?

Bother to tax it again? Are you trying to suggest something there?

Point out where i said a car should not be taxable?. Its not taxed based on equity. Neither are houses. A car is not taxed based on ownership either. Homes are.

Again - we don't know what waivers will apply when the actual, tiered rates come into play. It may well be the case that those in negative equity will be exempt. Again - most people in negative equity will not remain in negative equity for ever, and the vast majority of home owners are currently not in negative equity.

Vast majority is not a valid statement really. There are likely a substantial amount that are negative. If a house comes out of negative equity, it will be from the owners paying their way out. And then pay a 500 euro tax on an equity of a few hundred euros.

A fair point, if negative equity homes are exempt. But i would seriously doubt that will happen.

OldNotWIse

Odats wrote: »

Was talking to the mother this morning and both parents are OAP's. Mam doesn't want to pay it but my Dad being a worrier and the threat of court action just wants to pay it. So they are just going to pay it now. It is terrible scaremongering people into this position.

Mine are the same but Mam is the worrier I think a lot of our parents generation have the same mentality about paying everything upfront and in full. My mother couldnt believe when I moved out and paid my ESB bill in installments, or paid half when I got the bill and the other half on the due date. It's up there with having 6 months supply of coffee and washing powder

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

There's an obvious exemption for garden ornaments.
Convert your home to a rollercoaster and you'll get the same deal.

Well we know your just trying to look cool to the other yes posters with the drive around the garden, and now the above. The car is off the road for a reason.

And while it is, i am getting no threats and bills to pay tax on it. Thats because it has no ownership tax on it, unlike the home owner tax you compare it to.

alastair

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I was renting, and i decided to buy as the repayments were only €100 a month more than what i was paying in rent. Then, a few years later i find out that i'm going to end up paying a helluva lot more all of a sudden. If i could rewind time, i would not have bought knowing this.

All you know so far is it's going to cost you 8 euro a month or thereabouts. Even with the tiered system, you'll likely suffer more from interest rate changes. I think the burden of the tax is the least of your worries if you were buying on the basis of a comparison with rent at one moment in time.

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well we know your just trying to look cool to the other yes posters with the drive around the garden, and now the above. The car is off the road for a reason.

And while it is, i am getting no threats and bills to pay tax on it.

Because as long as it remains a garden ornament, it's not liable for tax - see rollercoaster strategy to avoid household charge bills. Happy to help!

Ghandee

A few of the Trade Unions have upped their game now in urging the public to not pay.
Des Derwin from The Dublin Council of trade Unions describing it as a 'Stealth tax'

More here from the Irish Examiner....

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/trade-unions-join-campaign-against-household-charge-544204.html

A national protest organised by opponents to the charge will take place at the National Stadium on Saturday.

Des Derwin from the Dublin Council of Trade Unions admits his organisation is asking its members to defy the law.

"It's always been a tradition… that (the breaking of) certain laws and civil disobedience have had their place so it's in that tradition," he said.

"And part of this is that we are against the household and water charge," he added.

"We regard it as a stealth tax, another charge on workers."

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/trade-unions-join-campaign-against-household-charge-544204.html#ixzz1p607ps7a

Its a sinking ship guys.....

Women and Children first!:D

Potential-Monke

alastair wrote: »

All you know so far is it's going to cost you 8 euro a month or thereabouts. Even with the tiered system, you'll likely suffer more from interest rate changes. I think the burden of the tax is the least of your worries if you were buying on the basis of a comparison with rent at one moment in time.

But if they were going to start with making it a percentage, we could fight for that percentage to be tied to the value of the house. As it stands, they can decide what it is and change it whenever they want.

leedslad

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Paddy147 banned.




Complains about standards.

Doesn't report the post.

Apologies for not following proper protocol.

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

Because as long as it remains a garden ornament, it's not liable for tax

Which makes it different from a property tax. Empty ones are still lible. Therefore motor tax =/= property tax.

see rollercoaster strategy to avoid household charge bills. Happy to help!

Thanks

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

Which makes it different from a property tax. Empty ones are still lible. Therefore motor tax =/= property tax.


Thanks

Garden ornament =/= functional car.

Thanks for the insight that motor tax isn't the same as property tax. You're liable for both though - unless you favour owning useless assets (immobile cars, uninhabitable houses).

alastair

Potential-Monke wrote: »

But if they were going to start with making it a percentage, we could fight for that percentage to be tied to the value of the house. As it stands, they can decide what it is and change it whenever they want.

They could change the percentage down the line too. Or you could quibble with their property valuation mechanism. I'm not seeing a scenario that would suit you better in any meaningful sense.

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

A few of the Trade Unions have upped their game now in urging the public to not pay.
Des Derwin from The Dublin Council of trade Unions describing it as a 'Stealth tax'

More here from the Irish Examiner....

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/trade-unions-join-campaign-against-household-charge-544204.html



Its a sinking ship guys.....

Women and Children first!:D

I look forward to this national protest show of strength by the campaign. It should highlight the numbers actively opposed to payment. I'll be interested for sure. Capacity of the National Stadium is all of 2,000! There's clear ambition.

And then we'll return to the reality that the thing will still need to be paid.

Don't register, pay later.

darkmaster2

alastair wrote: »

Don't register, pay later.

Don't register, never pay

Keep your mantra going, it won't work.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

I look forward to this show of strength by the campaign. It should highlight the numbers actively opposed to payment. I'll be interested for sure.

And then we'll return to the reality that the thing will still need to be paid.

Don't register, pay later.

Although exempt from the charge for this year, (didnt stop a certain FG councillor from calling to our exempt estate, urging us to register though)I'll attend the protest.

The true protest though has been taking place since Jan, and with 11 days left to go, over 1.5million have 'protested' by doing the simplest thing they can do, which is not paid (nor registered)

1.5 million, 11 days to go.... 136,000 people a day to go online and register.....

C'mon now Alastair, seriously, whats the chances sir:rolleyes:?

dvpower

Odats wrote: »

Was talking to the mother this morning and both parents are OAP's. Mam doesn't want to pay it but my Dad being a worrier and the threat of court action just wants to pay it. So they are just going to pay it now. It is terrible scaremongering people into this position.

Is it really scaremongering to tell people what consequences may flow from refusal to pay?

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

Although exempt from the charge for this year, I'll attend the protest.

The true protest though has been taking place since Jan, and with 11 days left to go, over 1.5million have 'protested' by doing the simplest thing they can do, which is not paid.

1.5 million, 11 days to go.... 136,000 people a day to go online and register.....

C'mon now Alastair, seriously, whats the chances sir:rolleyes:?

For stopping the introduction of a property tax? Nil.

Pretending that the registration deadline is of any consequence is a mistake. Compliance over time is all that matters - this thing is happening regardless of when people actually have to pay up.

Don't register, pay later.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

I look forward to this national protest show of strength by the campaign. It should highlight the numbers actively opposed to payment. I'll be interested for sure. Capacity of the National Stadium is all of 2,000! There's clear ambition.

I can't make the National Stadium, but will be at Fine Gael conference.

So see you at the Ard Fheis.
Don't forget to wear a blueshirt so that I can recognise you.

alastair wrote: »

Pretending that the registration deadline is of any consequence is a mistake. Compliance over time is all that matters - this thing is happening regardless of when people actually have to pay up.

*listens to the sweet swish of backpedalling*

alastair

mikom wrote: »

I can't make the National Stadium, but will be at Fine Gael conference.

So see you at the Ard Fheis.
Don't forget to wear a blueshirt so that I can recognise you.

Heh. Best of luck with that.

alastair

mikom wrote: »

*listens to the sweet swish of backpedalling*

Not quite - I've consistently stated it doesn't matter what the figures are by registration deadline. Check if you like.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Not quite - I've consistently stated it doesn't matter what the figures are by registration deadline. Check if you like.

I've got a boil that needs lancing......... maybe later.

alastair

mikom wrote: »

I've got a boil that needs lancing......... maybe later.

Nice to see you've the courage of your convictions.

mikom

alastair wrote: »

Nice to see you've the courage of your convictions.

You'll have to speak up......... I can't hear you over the pedalling.

darkmaster2

alastair wrote: »

Not quite - I've consistently stated it doesn't matter what the figures are by registration deadline. Check if you like.

If the diabolical registration numbers continue here will be a clear message to the government that we aint buying this shambles of a tax. Then it will be binned. Bye bye property tax household charge.

Don't register , never pay

squod

alastair wrote: »

For stopping the introduction of a property tax? Nil.

Unions are now backing the no campaign. (God forbid I'd side with them.) Momentum is building, a back down is logical. If the system is seen to cost more than it takes in it'll probably mean penalties from the ''troika''.

Simpler if we just sacked Hogan and got on without the thing.

alastair

darkmaster2 wrote: »

If the diabolical registration numbers continue here will be a clear message to the government that we aint buying this shambles of a tax. Then it will be binned. Bye bye property tax household charge.

Don't register , never pay

It's not actually up for sale - so not sure if they care about it's appeal one way or another.

Don't register, pay later.