Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

daltonmd

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

There are other ways, and many have been listed previously. There's an increase in vat (which I wouldn't agree with) or an increase in income tax (which I would: and one specifically targeting the more wealthy).

Other than cutting SW and PS pay?

There's no other way - we have to stop the cost of living rising, put a stop on rising ESB and GAS prices, help small business and REDUCE VAT for them. Lower Doctors fees, legal fees, reduce what we pay for medicines in our hospitals, lower salaries, pensions, rent allowance.

Strengthen the power of the Euro left in our pockets instead of paying these crazy boom time fees and salaries.

Oh and force banks to scale down the mortgage debt of those who cannot pay instead of squeezing these people dry - the money they don't have after they pay these mortgages is money not going into local economies - it's not about debt forgiveness - it's about stopping our money going into these banks, they have had enough.

We are broke.

iguana

daltonmd wrote: »

Other than cutting SW and PS pay?

There's no other way - we have to stop the cost of living rising, put a stop on rising ESB and GAS prices, help small business and REDUCE VAT for them. Lower Doctors fees, legal fees, reduce what we pay for medicines in our hospitals, lower salaries, pensions, rent allowance.

Strengthen the power of the Euro left in our pockets instead of paying these crazy boom time fees and salaries.

Oh and force banks to scale down the mortgage debt of those who cannot pay instead of squeezing these people dry - the money they don't have after they pay these mortgages is money not going into local economies - it's not about debt forgiveness - it's about stopping our money going into these banks, they have had enough.

We are broke.

One more. End upward only rent reviews. There are some pretty strong rumours that much of the Arcadia group will be pulling out of Ireland next year and the biggest problem their businesses are facing are the ridiculous rents. Already numerous homegrown business have failed because of the commercial rental system. If anyone remembers the restaurant Gruel in Templebar, it shut down because of rent increases and within a year the landlord was offering the space for half of the rent that was being demanded of Gruel.

It's a ridiculous system which puts so more pressure on businesses than they can bear.

daltonmd

iguana wrote: »

One more. End upward only rent reviews. There are some pretty strong rumours that much of the Arcadia group will be pulling out of Ireland next year and the biggest problem their businesses are facing are the ridiculous rents. Already numerous homegrown business have failed because of the commercial rental system. If anyone remembers the restaurant Gruel in Templebar, it shut down because of rent increases and within a year the landlord was offering the space for half of the rent that was being demanded of Gruel.

It's a ridiculous system which puts so more pressure on businesses than they can bear.

Agree, but I must admit that I had no idea who Arcadia were and was going to post that I had heard that many of the British high street stores are said to be thinking of pulling out of here next year - then I googled Arcadia. Jesus H.

I spoke to a friend of mine in retail and this is what was said, I remarked that we would be back to Guineys and Dunnes at this rate. Depressing thought.

iguana

The state of business in Ireland makes me think of the old Simpsons episode where a Hollywood crew come to Springfield (to make Radioactive Man) and get gouged by everybody until they eventually leave bankrupted and the movie is never made.

radiat

Just found this thread/poll.

The exact same poll was set up in the taxation forum. The moderator deleted it because he/she felt it was illegal to evade tax and banned the poster for a week!!!!

I thought it was crazy and gave a smart arse reply and got banned too. But i suppose i can't complain too much about that.

Bishop_Donal

iguana wrote: »

One more. End upward only rent reviews. There are some pretty strong rumours that much of the Arcadia group will be pulling out of Ireland next year and the biggest problem their businesses are facing are the ridiculous rents. Already numerous homegrown business have failed because of the commercial rental system. If anyone remembers the restaurant Gruel in Templebar, it shut down because of rent increases and within a year the landlord was offering the space for half of the rent that was being demanded of Gruel.

It's a ridiculous system which puts so more pressure on businesses than they can bear.

Lots of money is invested by pension funds etc in Irish commercial property on the basis of the upward only rent review clause. The reason FG and Labour chickened out of the decision to abolish upward only reviews was to try to create some stability / confidence in that market.

Now, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with your logic, but if you want to make this type of clause 'illegal', there will be further re-capitalisation of Banks required and/or write down in NAMA asset values.

I don't see a particularly palatable solution to this one, but I would point out that there is currently nothing to stop a landlord volunteering a rent discount irrespective of the current rental contract / agreement (and some rent is better than no rent?).

iguana

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Lots of money is invested by pension funds etc in Irish commercial property on the basis of the upward only rent review clause. The reason FG and Labour chickened out of the decision to abolish upward only reviews was to try to create some stability / confidence in that market.

Now, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with your logic, but if you want to make this type of clause 'illegal', there will be further re-capitalisation of Banks required and/or write down in NAMA asset values.

The rents are falling anyway because businesses are shutting down and the owners need to advertise them at much lower rates to get new businesses back in. The Gruel premises for example was advertised for 55% less than it had been so the rent was drastically reduced plus there had been a void period.

What do you think will happen if Arcadia close the number of units they are talking about getting rid of? That's not only hundreds of empty units but without draws like TopShop, TopMan, Wallis, Dorothy Perkins, etc, plenty of retail spaces will suffer as customer numbers drop off.

Attempting to sustain the unsustainable is fuçking the country up far more than anything else right now.

Frank Black

iguana wrote: »

What do you think will happen if Arcadia close the number of units they are talking about getting rid of? That's not only hundreds of empty units but without draws like TopShop, TopMan, Wallis, Dorothy Perkins, etc, plenty of retail spaces will suffer as customer numbers drop off.

What would Liffey Valley or Dundrum be like if they pull out. Full of phone and €2 shops.

The Quadratic Equation

I pay all my taxes, and I've no objection to a genuine property tax, but this is just a collection slush fund for some secret, billionaire, private, golden circle, bondholders. I want to know their names at least before I pay for their beach cocktails.

I'm going to avoid paying it for as long as I can. They can only fine you in court and take it out of your wages for REPEAT non payment.

I'm not paying for at least a year, then I'll pay the €140 which includes penalty and intrest.

If all the sheeple in Ireland grew a set of balls and delayed payment for as long as possible, we finally might have some real democracy.

Thatcher never thought her poll tax could fail either.

thomur

black francis wrote: »

What would Liffey Valley or Dundrum be like if they pull out. Full of phone and €2 shops.

Cant argue with the €2 shops. Just bought my kris kindle in the local €1 shop. Pizza cutter/wooden kitchen tools/grater/air freshners and 3 tea towels, all for €5.

Frank Black

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

If all the sheeple in Ireland grew a set of balls and delayed payment for as long as possible, we finally might have some real democracy.

.

Don't see how this constitutes the definition of 'real democracy'

Freddie59

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

I can see a fair few alternatives being offered. I can also see a fair few people on the other side who could be described as 'self-thanking bunch of muppets'.

What is this 'other side' you speak of? I'm talking about Ireland, Inc. A country which is insolvent. And is attempting to remain in the out of touch bubble that is the CS and PS.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

I don't know. Any ideas? My point is that they exist, so you can't generalise about the PS (or: you shouldn't generalise about people in the PS).

You see, I'm not generalising about the CS and PS. Merely the exorbitant cost of both. Which needs to be reduced dramatically - and quickly.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Interesting how you're concerned with exact figures above, but resort to vague notions of 'many' here. How many, precisely, can afford this law?

Good point. But an unknown as of yet I suppose.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

There are other ways, and many have been listed previously. There's an increase in vat (which I wouldn't agree with) or an increase in income tax (which I would: and one specifically targeting the more wealthy).

We cannot continually expect the wealthy (and I am not one of them) to keep footing the bill for the crap which permeates the wage structures in the Public Sector and Civil Service. These archaic institutions - and their "contracts" need to be dismantled ASAP. The sooner the Germans come in and do it the better. because no-one in Ireland in a position of power has the balls to do it.

The Quadratic Equation

black francis wrote: »

Don't see how this constitutes the definition of 'real democracy'

Its called direct democracy, in direct contrast to getting a so called vote once every five years to elect a few me fein egotistic cronies who then go on to totally ingore the peoples wishes again for another 5 years, while they line their own fat pockets and the pockets of their lackies.

Frank Black

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Its called direct democracy, in direct contrast to getting a so called vote once every five years to elect a few me fein egotistic cronies who then go on to totally ingore the peoples wishes again for another 5 years, while they line their own fat pockets and the pockets of their lackies.

So have a referendum on every legislative decision that needs to be taken? - sounds like a fantastic idea :rolleyes:

force eleven

35% of people here are liars. You sat back and let the government plough 100 billion euros of your money to paay speculators and gambling debts i.e banks, and you get all shirty about 100 euros?

Priorities folks, priorities.:mad:

daltonmd

iguana wrote: »

The rents are falling anyway because businesses are shutting down and the owners need to advertise them at much lower rates to get new businesses back in. The Gruel premises for example was advertised for 55% less than it had been so the rent was drastically reduced plus there had been a void period.

What do you think will happen if Arcadia close the number of units they are talking about getting rid of? That's not only hundreds of empty units but without draws like TopShop, TopMan, Wallis, Dorothy Perkins, etc, plenty of retail spaces will suffer as customer numbers drop off.

Attempting to sustain the unsustainable is why this county is fuçking the country up far more than anything else right now.

But the reality is that it is still all about the banks, the banks, the banks - because that is who will suffer if the do away with the UORRs. Landlords borrowed multiples based on long term rent rises. Crazy.

tayto lover

force eleven wrote: »

35% of people here are liars. You sat back and let the government plough 100 billion euros of your money to paay speculators and gambling debts i.e banks, and you get all shirty about 100 euros?

Priorities folks, priorities.:mad:

Stupid post.
We could do nothing about the Government paying the speculators and banks BUT we can do something about this.
It's about what you can control.

Sleepy

Nope, renting so it'll be the landlord's problem and since we've been in the house nearly 2 years and maintaining it, he'll be told to feck off if he tries to pass it on. Can't see him risking upsetting a mutually beneficial relationship for the sake of a ton tbh.

Morrisseeee

The bank 'owns' my house, so I'll pass on the 'charge' to them

Toby Take a Bow

Freddie59 wrote: »

What is this 'other side' you speak of? I'm talking about Ireland, Inc. A country which is insolvent. And is attempting to remain in the out of touch bubble that is the CS and PS.

The quote you were quoting wasn't referring to you, was clearly a reference to a quote by another poster.

Freddie59 wrote: »

You see, I'm not generalising about the CS and PS. Merely the exorbitant cost of both. Which needs to be reduced dramatically - and quickly.

I believe I was referring to when you said:

Freddie59 wrote: »

I think people are (slowly) beginning to wake up top how the PS are actually cocooned and are beginning to ask questions about it.

Not everyone in the PS is cocooned. Stating this either allows for generalisations to pass or for generalisations to be realised.

Freddie59 wrote: »

We cannot continually expect the wealthy (and I am not one of them) to keep footing the bill for the crap which permeates the wage structures in the Public Sector and Civil Service. These archaic institutions - and their "contracts" need to be dismantled ASAP. The sooner the Germans come in and do it the better. because no-one in Ireland in a position of power has the balls to do it.

I guess this would be the basic point where we differ: I think the wealthy (I too amn't one of them) should pay more as they can afford to pay more. Similar to if I got a higher paying job I would naturally expect to pay more taxes and a higher percentage of my wages.

Freddie59

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

I guess this would be the basic point where we differ: I think the wealthy (I too amn't one of them) should pay more as they can afford to pay more. Similar to if I got a higher paying job I would naturally expect to pay more taxes and a higher percentage of my wages.

Yeah we'll have to differ. But it isn't the solution. All that is wrong with this country is typified by today's strike in the EBS, Seriously, - WTF??
2,000 jobs need shedding in AIB/EBS and they go on strike?? FFS.:mad:

The simple solution - if the DoF and Government had a ball between them, is to have the bonus paid to management returned. Problem solved. But sure we couldn't have that. management treated the same as workers......FFS there really is no hope for this country.

Freddie59

daltonmd wrote: »

We are broke.

And only a select few recognise this.

tayto lover

Freddie59 wrote: »

And only a select few recognise this.

You would want to tell the Government that as they don't seem to know and are giving their advisors huge rises. You seem to have missed that.

Freddie59

tayto lover wrote: »

You would want to tell the Government that as they don't seem to know and are giving their advisors huge rises. You seem to have missed that.

Far from it. That is my point. The select few don't include Happy Gilmore and Co.

skintiam

If I thought it would stay at €100 and if the government did something about reducing the cost of living in this country, eg. cost of gas and esb, I would pay it.

Toby Take a Bow

Freddie59 wrote: »

Yeah we'll have to differ. But it isn't the solution. All that is wrong with this country is typified by today's strike in the EBS, Seriously, - WTF??
2,000 jobs need shedding in AIB/EBS and they go on strike?? FFS.:mad:

The simple solution - if the DoF and Government had a ball between them, is to have the bonus paid to management returned. Problem solved. But sure we couldn't have that. management treated the same as workers......FFS there really is no hope for this country.

As you probably figured, I'd have a different take on the EBS thingy. I do agree with you on refusing to pay the bonus to the management though!

The Quadratic Equation

black francis wrote: »

So have a referendum on every legislative decision that needs to be taken? - sounds like a fantastic idea :rolleyes:

There would be no need if our politicians were not so self serving dishonest and corrupt, but Irish polticians cannot be trusted in any shape or form. Let's not keep pretending they can. Honest people do not go into Irish politics.

Freddie59

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

As you probably figured, I'd have a different take on the EBS thingy. I do agree with you on refusing to pay the bonus to the management though!

But surely you must agree a strike is complete and utter madness?

Toby Take a Bow

Freddie59 wrote: »

But surely you must agree a strike is complete and utter madness?

It Depends. From what I can see the there seems to be disagreement over whether the payment is a bonus or contractual pay. Maybe that's been resolved in the meantime, but not from what I've seen.

If it's a bonus, then yeah, I think a strike would be madness. Bonus is a surplus payment, usually if the company is doing well or a recognition of extraordinary labour. Clearly, in the case of EBS a bonus can't be argued for.

If it's part of contractual pay (and, to be honest, a fairly bizarre way of paying your employees) then it should be paid, no questions asked. If management/the government are refusing to pay contractual wages then I don't see the problem with the workers striking.

Many of the references to it being a 'bonus' are being taken from an Irish Times article which was directly quoting a spokesperson for the EBS. I have yet to see an independent reference to it being a bonus. But, again, maybe I've missed that article or reference.

tayto lover

Freddie59 wrote: »

But surely you must agree a strike is complete and utter madness?

I heard an interview on the radio today. It said that the E.B.S. workers are on 26k per year and that has been worked out as being 2k per month with the last month being 4k. This was done at their request so that they would have a double month for Christmas.
If this is true then they have been very unfairly treated as it would not be a bonus but their actual wage. It would also be a huge pay cut and taken without any prior discussion.
If that happened to me i'd be out protesting too.