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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #512
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I heard an interview on the radio today. It said that the E.B.S. workers are on 26k per year and that has been worked out as being 2k per month with the last month being 4k. This was done at their request so that they would have a double month for Christmas.
    If this is true then they have been very unfairly treated as it would not be a bonus but their actual wage. It would also be a huge pay cut and taken without any prior discussion.
    If that happened to me i'd be out protesting too.

    Do you mind if I ask if you work in the PS? This is utter folly. 2,000 jobs are to be shed in AIB/EBS. Talk about offering yourself up on a platter. This company should not even be in existence and the staff are in complete denial. If it were the private sector it would have been wound up three years ago - as it and its like should have been.


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    #513
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    It Depends. From what I can see the there seems to be disagreement over whether the payment is a bonus or contractual pay. Maybe that's been resolved in the meantime, but not from what I've seen.

    If it's a bonus, then yeah, I think a strike would be madness. Bonus is a surplus payment, usually if the company is doing well or a recognition of extraordinary labour. Clearly, in the case of EBS a bonus can't be argued for.

    If it's part of contractual pay (and, to be honest, a fairly bizarre way of paying your employees) then it should be paid, no questions asked. If management/the government are refusing to pay contractual wages then I don't see the problem with the workers striking.

    Many of the references to it being a 'bonus' are being taken from an Irish Times article which was directly quoting a spokesperson for the EBS. I have yet to see an independent reference to it being a bonus. But, again, maybe I've missed that article or reference.

    At the risk of repeating myself - this company should not even exist. GUBU doesn't even begin to describe it.


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    #514
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,926 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Do you mind if I ask if you work in the PS? This is utter folly. 2,000 jobs are to be shed in AIB/EBS. Talk about offering yourself up on a platter. This company should not even be in existence and the staff are in complete denial. If it were the private sector it would have been wound up three years ago - as it and its like should have been.

    No I do not work in the P.S. I did for about 6/7 years in the 1970's but left. Ran my own small business eventually before retiring 4 years ago.
    Regardless of that let me ask you how you would feel if your wages were short the 2k you were expecting to pay for your kids Christmas toys and run your house, not as a bonus but as wages?


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    #515
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Do you mind if I ask if you work in the PS? This is utter folly. 2,000 jobs are to be shed in AIB/EBS. Talk about offering yourself up on a platter. This company should not even be in existence and the staff are in complete denial. If it were the private sector it would have been wound up three years ago - as it and its like should have been.
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    At the risk of repeating myself - this company should not even exist. GUBU doesn't even begin to describe it.

    You're not really commenting on the points which we were responding to (despite repeating yourself). You made a point about striking being madness while we were both saying that the 'bonus' seems to actually be their entitled wage. Not paying this wage is a perfectly reasonable reason to strike. Striking because they're not getting a bonus would, in my opinion, be questionable.

    Whether the company should be wound up is one thing, but the workers should be paid the correct wage and not be told a month before that the management are witholding this payment.


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    #516
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,021 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    So which is it. If the EBS workers get their money we have to / don't have to pay the household charge?


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    #517
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    So which is it. If the EBS workers get their money we have to / don't have to pay the household charge?

    Apparently the EBS strike is similar to complaining about the household charge in how messed up this country is. That or completely off-topic.
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    All that is wrong with this country is typified by today's strike in the EBS, Seriously, - WTF??:confused:
    2,000 jobs need shedding in AIB/EBS and they go on strike?? FFS.:mad:


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    #518
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    can you withdraw the from an EBS savings account at an AIB branch now that AIB owns them ?


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    #519
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    There would be no need if our politicians were not so self serving dishonest and corrupt, but Irish polticians cannot be trusted in any shape or form. Let's not keep pretending they can. Honest people do not go into Irish politics.


    And who votes in these self-serving, dishonest and corrupt politicians?
    As they say, ultimately you end up with the politicians you deserve.
    An electorate that return such people as Mattie McGrath, Michael Lowry, Gerry Adams and Michael Healy Rae to be our public representatives cannot then go complain because we have a bunch of clowns running the country.

    Do you think if a politician ran for election telling people the truth about what lay in store in the next few years he's have even a remote chance of getting elected?


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    #520
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    black francis wrote: »
    Do you think if a politician ran for election telling people the truth about what lay in store in the next few years he's have even a remote chance of getting elected?

    S/he does if s/he's a member of FF, FG or Labour.


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    #521
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No I do not work in the P.S. I did for about 6/7 years in the 1970's but left. Ran my own small business eventually before retiring 4 years ago.
    Regardless of that let me ask you how you would feel if your wages were short the 2k you were expecting to pay for your kids Christmas toys and run your house, not as a bonus but as wages?

    As I pointed out earlier the company that I work for was in dire straits ten years ago (quite healthy now thankfully). Mass redundancies; pay cuts, pay freezes - the usual. I was looking down the barrel of redundancy. Luckily I escaped and things recovered. I was so thankful to still have my job.

    What happens here? A company which should not even exist whose employees cannot appreciate the situation they are in - yelled on from the sidelines by people like Joe Higgins? FFS:mad:

    What a truly surreal bunch of people, completely oblivious to the financial implosion going on around them . I have absolutely NO sympathy. Whatsoever. The solution is to take the money back from management and NOBODY gets a bonus. Image - a bonus for fcuking UP your company. Sweet Jesus. There really is no hope.


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    #522
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    Whether the company should be wound up is one thing, but the workers should be paid the correct wage and not be told a month before that the management are witholding this payment.

    It is the ONLY thing. Period.


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    #523
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,072 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    The household charge is minimal (at this stage) compared to the big bucks that those with ancient septic-tanks will have to pay when they're forced to upgrade after a visit from some local council jobsworth.


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    #524
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    What a truly surreal bunch of people, completely oblivious to the financial implosion going on around them . I have absolutely NO sympathy. Whatsoever. The solution is to take the money back from management and NOBODY gets a bonus. Image - a bonus for fcuking UP your company. Sweet Jesus. There really is no hope.
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    It is the ONLY thing. Period.

    It's not the only thing. You're ignoring (willfully, I would say, at this point) whether the payment is a bonus or their pay. If it's part of their pay, they are legally entitled to it.


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    #525
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    It's not the only thing. You're ignoring (willfully, I would say, at this point) whether the payment is a bonus or their pay. If it's part of their pay, they are legally entitled to it.

    If they're legally entitled to it, the workers should take a case through the courts - I suspect that the way in which their contract were written meant that the DoF (or the barristers advising them) felt that they weren't legally entitled to it.


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    #526
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    black francis wrote: »
    If they're legally entitled to it, the workers should take a case through the courts - I suspect that the way in which their contract were written meant that the DoF (or the barristers advising them) felt that they weren't legally entitled to it.

    Very possible. As I've said, I don't know whether it is a bonus or a weird deferred payment scheme. The other side to your suggestion is that the lawyers or unions representing the workers are confident that this payment is legal, but the workers don't want to be waiting until well into the new year before they receive their wage. I'm sure a legal strategy is being devised by those representing the workers if this is the situation. If not, then it's clear the workers/unions are fudging the matter.


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    #527
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
    Very possible. As I've said, I don't know whether it is a bonus or a weird deferred payment scheme. The other side to your suggestion is that the lawyers or unions representing the workers are confident that this payment is legal, but the workers don't want to be waiting until well into the new year before they receive their wage. I'm sure a legal strategy is being devised by those representing the workers if this is the situation. If not, then it's clear the workers/unions are fudging the matter.

    Never heard anyone on the Union side mention the possibility of a legal challenge - in fact the three main grounds of complaint seem to be that it was paid every year for the last 40 odd years, that the notice given was too short and that senior managers were still to get thier 'bonus'.

    Suggests to me that nothing illegal has gone on.


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    #528
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,926 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    As I pointed out earlier the company that I work for was in dire straits ten years ago (quite healthy now thankfully). Mass redundancies; pay cuts, pay freezes - the usual. I was looking down the barrel of redundancy. Luckily I escaped and things recovered. I was so thankful to still have my job.

    What happens here? A company which should not even exist whose employees cannot appreciate the situation they are in - yelled on from the sidelines by people like Joe Higgins? FFS:mad:

    What a truly surreal bunch of people, completely oblivious to the financial implosion going on around them . I have absolutely NO sympathy. Whatsoever. The solution is to take the money back from management and NOBODY gets a bonus. Image - a bonus for fcuking UP your company. Sweet Jesus. There really is no hope.

    You didn't answer my question. If it's not a bonus and just wages then is it still fair to take it from them? You have to answer questions when you expect others to so the same.


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    #529
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    tayto lover wrote: »
    You didn't answer my question. If it's not a bonus and just wages then is it still fair to take it from them? You have to answer questions when you expect others to so the same.

    It is a bonus. And therefore shouldn't be paid. Either to management or staff. End of story.


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    #530
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    It is a bonus. And therefore shouldn't be paid. Either to management or staff. End of story.

    You know putting things in bold doesn't make what you say any more true, right?


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    #531
    Robdude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Robdude


    The word bonus doesn't have a lot of legal meaning. Some people's employment contracts guarantee a bonus - which I think is crazy; but it's true.

    So your salary might be 50k and your bonus is anywhere from 2k-10k.

    I don't know why they don't just pay you 52k and give you a 0-8k bonus....but I have seen contracts like this. I also know that, at least some of the time, when you hear about CEOs getting million dollar bonuses for ruining a company - it is actually the minimum 'bonus' their contract calls for.

    It would be no different than announcing that everyone is taking a 20% paycut because profits are down. In many cases, that would be illegal/violate employment contracts; just like not giving a bonus can be.


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    #532
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,926 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    It is a bonus. And therefore shouldn't be paid. Either to management or staff. End of story.

    Wrong. Apparently it is part of their wages and as such cannot be unjustly taken from them. Strike justified.


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    #533
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Wrong. Apparently it is part of their wages and as such cannot be unjustly taken from them. Strike justified.

    Take a legal challenge if it's unjust - striking implies that know they won't win by taking the legal route.


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    #534
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,926 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    black francis wrote: »
    Take a legal challenge if it's unjust - striking implies that know they won't win by taking the legal route.

    You are probably right with that. As the old saying goes "authority backs authority". Right does not come into the argument apparently. The bottom rung is for stepping on.


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    #535
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    black francis wrote: »
    Take a legal challenge if it's unjust - striking implies that know they won't win by taking the legal route.

    Judges in Ireland are Political Cronie Appointments, so how can they be independent ?


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    #536
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    Judges in Ireland are Political Cronie Appointments, so how can they be independent ?


    The separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary is one of the cornerstones of democracy - if you really believe that that separation doesn't exist, then you don't believe Ireland is a real democracy.

    Personally, I've seen no evidence when it comes to judicial interpretation of statute law, that judges will do the bidding of their appointees - but then maybe I'm just not being cynical enough.


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    #537
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    Joshua Jones wrote: »
    You ever been there when you're completely broke and you have to go count up and bag your change from your copper jar and your hands stink from the smell of all the brock.

    That's Ireland that is.

    Yes, I have.
    Yesterday I cashed up my change from my money tin (not for the first time either).
    I use a Coinstar machine to count it though.


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    #538
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    D1stant wrote: »
    Simple Question

    I will pay it even though it's unfair because I agree with taxing wealth and the tax base should be wide . BUT it should be means tested and relative to the size and location of the property

    I am waiting for Ray D'Arcy to make a statement linking this with emmigration

    Simple answer: No.
    My Landlord might though.


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    #539
    Captain McDuck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 87 ✭✭Captain McDuck


    Ask my swiss


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    #540
    books4sale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭books4sale


    Enjoy the hols, Good luck now ^^^^^


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    #541
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,926 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    black francis wrote: »
    The separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary is one of the cornerstones of democracy - if you really believe that that separation doesn't exist, then you don't believe Ireland is a real democracy.

    Personally, I've seen no evidence when it comes to judicial interpretation of statute law, that judges will do the bidding of their appointees - but then maybe I'm just not being cynical enough.

    Have you seen any of the corrupt bank bosses, property speculators or politicians who caused this mess sent to jail yet? The answer is No and that won't change.


This discussion has been closed.
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