Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

DoesNotCompute

Ghandee wrote: »

And did the medical cards get taken away from them during that protest ?


So......

Your point is?

The point is they're well able to afford going without medical cards, just like the anti-shower are well able to afford the property charge. All they want to do is protest for the sake of it.

squod

CricketDude wrote: »

Like the council tax in the uk.

The UK are getting something for their money in fairness. I'd pay an affordable council tax too. Trouble is the people running the show over here are not as trust worthy with peoples money.


Yesterdays headlines in the 'Mail said the government is still paying for GP services for 500 dead people.

And check out these numbers.....

Big payouts for backroom HSE staff

If the government tried even a little tiny bit to save €160m they could do it in a heartbeat. Clearly what we have are bullies who hate poor people. They do not have my support.

Bruthal

dvpower wrote: »

There is no link - no decision has been made on the pricing for the property tax. There is speculation and there are recommendations from various bodies - that's all.
There is an ongoing consultation, that you might want to contribute to (or not).

It will be €500 or more, for the average house, i dont think there is much doubt about that.

And thats very conservative.

Saying that is not scare tactics. Its a likely outcome.

Bruthal

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

The point is they're well able to afford going without medical cards, just like the anti-shower are well able to afford the property charge. All they want to do is protest for the sake of it.

So, your belief is, keep taxing until a level is reached that they cant afford?

gurramok

Its laughable the no side posting links from the Daily Fail to back up their arguments. Why not post from The Sun while you're at it? :rolleyes:

demanufactured

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

The point is they're well able to afford going without medical cards, just like the anti-shower are well able to afford the property charge. All they want to do is protest for the sake of it.

Nothing to do with "The sake of it"
We are protesting against the principle,
This is not Going towards local services.
This is a database creating exercise.
This will eventually turn into a property tax

It will more than likely go upto 1000 euro a year.
They will bring in water rates at a scarily inflated rate.
The taoiseach Wil still be on a huge salary that he does not need/deserve.

There will still be the amount of TD's we have now...far too many...


I could go on

Frank Black

demanufactured wrote: »

I could go on

Only if you promise to be clever and articulate.

danmanw8

tayto lover wrote: »

Wait until they decide that everyone should pay Road Tax as well regardless of whether you have a car or not. Only a matter of time i'd say.
Never trust a crowd who specifically put a tax on Childrens' Shoes in 1974.

It is time people stood up for themselves.

Facts don't matter do they?
For the record, children's shoes were never taxed.
A proposal by the then govt to put VAT on all clothes was beaten in the Dáil in February 1981 & never implemented.
It was voted against by Jim Kemmy, who broke ranks because "all clothes" included children's clothes & shoes. There was never a specific proposal to tax children's shoes.
A proposal was later introduced (in line with all EU countries) to charge VAT on all clothes except this time they excluded Children's clothes & shoes and is still in place to this day.

demanufactured

black francis wrote: »

Only if you promise to be clever and articulate.

Promise????
lol

Bullseye1

danmanw8 wrote: »

Facts don't matter do they?
For the record, children's shoes were never taxed.
A proposal by the then govt to put VAT on all clothes was beaten in the Dáil in February 1981 & never implemented.
It was voted against by Jim Kemmy, who broke ranks because "all clothes" included children's clothes & shoes. There was never a specific proposal to tax children's shoes.

It was still proposed although I do believe blue shirts were exempt

donalg1

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What do you expect the property tax to be on a standard 3 bedroom semi-detached house with a value of €150,000? Do you see it at the current €100?

Do you expect a further levy called a water tax to be introduced along with the property tax? What do you expect that will be?

If this tax does proceed do you still think that if you call out the fire brigade that you will be exempt from paying a call out charge even though we are told that his property tax is covering this service?

Finally do you expect once and for all that this government is going to cut out the enormous waste of tax payers money throughout the public sector? Do you expect them to finally sort out the health service and not be held over a barrell everytime the unions threaten them?

Why would anyone with half a brain think giving government (permanent civil servants) with a past track record of incompetent handling of tax payers money is going to help.

We were promised changes to how we spend tax payers money. All we have seen so far is the same as previous governments.

I have no idea what the property tax will be on a 3 bed semi, as there is no information on how the property tax will be calculated i.e. will it be done on square foot of the dwelling, the size of the overall site, the location of the dwelling, none of this has been confirmed so it is impossible to predict what the property tax might be on a 3 bed semi.

Same goes for the domestic water charges, which I fully expect to be introduced and not a moment too soon. I am sure they will be metered at the tap and people will be charged by usage, but as for how much it may be well I would only be guessing and basing my figures on rumours and would never be able to provide anything to substantiate my claims.

The fire service will always charge a call out fee regardless of anything else.

I have said before if anyone thought this government would be different from the last was living in cloud cuckoo land and were just kidding themselves.

dvpower

robbie7730 wrote: »

It will be €500 or more, for the average house, i dont think there is much doubt about that.

And thats very conservative.

Saying that is not scare tactics. Its a likely outcome.

I don't know how much it will be next year and nor do you. I'm simply saying that you have no 'link' to this information, as you suggested, because it hasn't been decided yet.

So, yes, of course there is doubt. Many people on here, including yourself, have predicted that the charge will be defeated and that the price next year will be zero.

danmanw8

robbie7730 wrote: »

It will be €500 or more, for the average house, i dont think there is much doubt about that.

And thats very conservative.

Saying that is not scare tactics. Its a likely outcome.

Of course it is but what's your alternative? Increase income tax? Cut social welfare?

My alternative is that they should cut the pay of any public servants earning more than the average industrial wage. That would more than pay for the high social welfare levels (relative to other countries) and the local authorities.

I could see SF supporting this as they all claim to be only taking the average industrial wage.

SeaFields

There is a great battle on the pat kenny show at the mo about this. Worth tuning in.

Frank Black

danmanw8 wrote: »

I could see SF supporting this as they all claim to be only taking the average industrial wage.

They take the full whack of salary from the state (channelling some of it back to their party) - along with as many ink cartridges as they can stuff in their pockets

Bullseye1

So your not prepared to take a stand for change and properly run government?

BTW I am in favour of a property tax that everyone pays. I am also in favour of a residential tax that renters pay. If your living in a house and utilising the services provided you pay. There should be no exemptions. The days of subsidising are over, we are broke.

But we were promised changes in how our tax money is spent. They have been in for one year now and nothing has changed. They have failed to live up to their promise of reducing public expenditure to reduce our deficit. Raising VAT has not encouraged people to spend.

The Irish internal economy is on its knees and they are putting all of their eggs in one basket, exports, which creates little or no jobs. Of course it is going to take longer to get this country back off it's knees but I would be very wary of this 100,000 jobs over four years. They may create 100,000 jobs but there could easily be more lost if we do nothing about the Irish internal economy.

Why haven't commercial rates been lowered?
Why haven't they tackled upward only rents like they promised?

SMEs are our future not bigger government. We need a smaller more efficient public sector. Then people will be happy to pay these taxes coming down the road.

danmanw8

black francis wrote: »

They take the full whack of salary from the state (channelling some of it back to their party) - along with as many ink cartridges as they can stuff in their pockets

Point is they "claim" to live on an average industrial wage yet any suggestion that the protected public salaries are cut to that is vigorously opposed by them as are all alternative proposals for financing the running of the country including the household charge.

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

They take the full whack of salary from the state (channelling some of it back to their party) - along with as many ink cartridges as they can stuff in their pockets

But the main point being Sinn Fein ministers are not lining their own pockets.
Ink cartridges?
Any other expense scandals you can pin on them?

iPhone.

I firmly believe this will be a huge issue in future elections, both local and national and its then we will see their true colours and determination.

Already relishing watching the local politicos dancing from foot to foot on my doorstep as they attempt their usual `say one thing, do another` routine.

Just on a side note, and apologies if it has already been asked. But, if this charge is as legitimate and straightforward as suggested, why are we not just getting a bill or demand for payment in the letterbox?

Ghandee

Ghandee wrote: »

But the main point being Sinn Fein ministers are not lining their own pockets.
Ink cartridges?
Any other expense scandals you can pin on them?

Few murders here and there, but sure what are a few murders between friends.

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

But the main point being Sinn Fein ministers are not lining their own pockets.
Ink cartridges?
Any other expense scandals you can pin on them?

Northern Bank robbery

Not to mention they've been robbing the people of the UK for decades now. But sure UK taxpayers don't matter, eh?

They're only really getting opportunities to steal from the Irish taxpayers recently, and things aren't looking good on that front either.

Bruthal

dvpower wrote: »

Many people on here, including yourself, have predicted that the charge will be defeated and that the price next year will be zero.

Did i? Maybe i did during my own 5 pint plan. But I thought i said i would be surprised if there was no last minute surge. Im not here to be on a winning side. Im here to point out my view that its an unjust, discriminating tax.

donalg1

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes, a pro paying point of view.

A common sense neutral point of view would be that the household charge is a property tax, the introductory level being €100, and is the instrument in setting up a database to bring the same tax to the intended levels.

See them as 2 unconnected items if you like. But child level common sense says they are the same, just with a different name and level.

These govenrments know that their simple act of a name change and payment level (upwards), will make many people believe the household charge is not a property tax, and they are different. Your view shows this.

And then one minister, with a computer screen, changes the word household to property, and lots of people follow it like the gods have intervened and changed it.

The introductory charge is simply a hook and bait exercise.

Do you honestly believe when the property tax is introduced that they will allow it to be paid in the same way self declaration has meant many are not paying this charge so why would they make the same mistake again?

It is not a secret that the household charge was brought in as an interim measure before a valuation based property tax is introduced, so obviously the chances of everyone paying €100 for this are pretty minimal, child level of common sense would tell you this.

They certainly wont be allowing people to register themselves for the property tax imo. I think this Household Charge was a tester for the full implementation of a property tax, they most likely will see where and how the household charge has failed and then amend this for the implementation of a property tax. The household charge is similiar to a focus group for a property tax if you will.

danmanw8

Ghandee wrote: »

But the main point being Sinn Fein ministers are not lining their own pockets.

This thread refers to the republic -There are no Sinn Féin ministers.

Ghandee wrote: »

Ink cartridges?
Any other expense scandals you can pin on them?

Expense scandals are like mice, when you see one you know there are many many more. The inkgate scandal proves an attitude that sees the taxpayer as fair game.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe when the property tax is introduced that they will allow it to be paid in the same way self declaration has meant many are not paying this charge so why would they make the same mistake again?

It is not a secret that the household charge was brought in as an interim measure before a valuation based property tax is introduced, so obviously the chances of everyone paying €100 for this are pretty minimal, child level of common sense would tell you this.

They certainly wont be allowing people to register themselves for the property tax imo. I think this Household Charge was a tester for the full implementation of a property tax, they most likely will see where and how the household charge has failed and then amend this for the implementation of a property tax. The household charge is similiar to a focus group for a property tax if you will.

No, they believed the electorate would bend over and comply like they always have, assisted by a low level hook and bait introductory tax.

donalg1

robbie7730 wrote: »

No, they believed the electorate would bend over and comply like they always have, assisted by a low level hook and bait introductory tax.

So you think the only people that will be made pay the property tax when it comes in are those that registered for the household charge. And any of the super genius' that didnt register will escape under the radar and will never have to pay a scent in property taxes.;)

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

No, they believed the electorate would bend over and comply like they always have, assisted by a low level hook and bait introductory tax.

So instead you would like to see 20billion worth of austerity measures next year, yeah?

People on the dole/public servants/sick people who are refusing to pay this tax should seriously question what their ideal 'end-result' is from this fiasco.

I think the phrase: 'Be careful what you wish for' is apt.

Frank Black

donalg1 wrote: »

So you think the only people that will be made pay the property tax when it comes in are those that registered for the household charge. And any of the super genius' that didnt register will escape under the radar and will never have to pay a scent in property taxes.;)

And we would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for those pesky kids!

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

So you think the only people that will be made pay the property tax when it comes in are those that registered for the household charge. And any of the super genius' that didnt register will escape under the radar and will never have to pay a scent in property taxes.;)

Your confused there. I said the governments plan was to introduce a "paltry" level tax, and get everyone registered, in preparation for the real hit.

I never said those not registered will never have to pay. But if people are going to protest, not registering is the way to do that. If enough dont register, it sends out a message.

You suggested self registering was never going to work. Why did you not advise your leaders then, and save us all yet more wastage with leaflets etc?