Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

Northern Bank robbery

Sinn Fein Committed the Northern bank robbery

You have a link to back this up i presume?

danmanw8

donalg1 wrote: »

So you think the only people that will be made pay the property tax when it comes in are those that registered for the household charge. And any of the super genius' that didnt register will escape under the radar and will never have to pay a scent in property taxes.;)

That would appear to be the "logic" alright.

Irony is they'll all pay more than the €100 for 2012 as the penalties and interest kick in +Fines on top if they end up in court
Also, can't sell a property with outstanding charges without discharging the liability.

Ghandee

Ghandee wrote: »

Sinn Fein Committed the Northern bank robbery

You have a link to back this up i presume?

Hey wait a minute. You've set the rules here - isn't it up to you to prove that they didn't commit the robbery?

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

Sinn Fein Committed the Northern bank robbery

You have a link to back this up i presume?

Don't be trying to drag the thread off topic now - you made a stupid point about SF being whiter than white and got called out on your bs.

You should leave it at that before you embarrass yourself further.

seamus

robbie7730 wrote: »

Your confused there. I said the governments plan was to introduce a "paltry" level tax, and get everyone registered, in preparation for the real hit.

So what's the difference between people registering now and people registering for the "real" tax?

What difference would it make if they had just gone ahead and levied the full tax, requiring people to register and pay?

Musiconomist

Property tax or not, I cant wait to see Fine Gael and Labour take an almighty hit next election. Hopefully we'll have decent candidates by then.

I'd run myself, but I'm not in the golden circle, the stonemasons or a former officer of the SS.

Wild Bill

I think this insight into the former Stickies and current Labour Party's in-house propaganda machine (aka RTE) is worth a wider airing: (Copy, past and link any and everywhere )

demanufactured wrote: »

The chairman of the RTÉ board is Tom Savage. Tom who is married to Terry Prone and is Anton Savage of Today FM's Dad is also a director of "The Communications Clinic."

"So what" you might say.

Well, here's what:

James Reilly, the health minister, paid a public relations company €15,000 for advice on health reform as well as for speech writing advice, his office confirmed.

He paid the money last year to the Communications Clinic, whose directors are PR consultant Terry Prone and Tom Savage, the chairman of the RTÉ board.


**

I wonder if the Chairman of the board of RTÉ worries about whether or not a customer of his is criticised on RTÉ programmes?

I wonder if Terry Prone is nervous of criticising a valued customer of hers in her columns in the Examiner or when she is giving her expert opinion on various RTÉ programmes?

I see this debate has cooled down a lot since whassisname fled the field!

Wild Bill

black francis wrote: »

Don't be trying to drag the thread off topic now - you made a stupid point about SF being whiter than white and got called out on your bs.

You should leave it at that before you embarrass yourself further.

Whoever did the job obviously had a far healthier relationship with the banks than the treacherous Political Establishment.

While someone was robbing a few bob off the Northern Bank the Southern Banks were destroying the entire country.

No moral equivalence; in fact, with the benefit of hindsight I think folk who robbed Irish banks should be given a medal

Bruthal

seamus wrote: »

So what's the difference between people registering now and people registering for the "real" tax?

What difference would it make if they had just gone ahead and levied the full tax, requiring people to register and pay?

You think the registration levels would be the same if it was €500?

Whether it makes any difference if people register or not has much bearing on whether they pay eventually or not is not the point i was making.

My point is, the government did opt for self regestering.

The government did opt for a €100 level.

As we have had a fair few claims that €100 is paltry, this level does seem to help encourage registration.

Frank Black

Wild Bill wrote: »

Whoever did the job obviously had a far healthier relationship with the banks than the treacherous Political Establishment.

While someone was robbing a few bob off the Northern Bank the Southern Banks were destroying the entire country.

No moral equivalence; in fact, with the benefit of hindsight I think folk who robbed Irish banks should be given a medal

Course you do.

Hope you keep posting, you're proving far more useful to the 'yes' side than you could possibly guess.

Bruthal

danmanw8 wrote: »

That would appear to be the "logic" alright.

Irony is they'll all pay more than the €100 for 2012 as the penalties and interest kick in +Fines on top if they end up in court
Also, can't sell a property with outstanding charges without discharging the liability.

There would not seem to be much "logic" in protesters complying with something they are protesting against.

seamus

robbie7730 wrote: »

You think the registration levels would be the same if it was €500?

Whether it makes any difference if people register or not has much bearing on whether they pay eventually or not is not the point i was making.

My point is, the government did opt for self regestering.

The government did opt for a €100 level.

As we have had a fair few claims that €100 is paltry, this level does seem to help encourage registration.

Practically all direct taxation is done by self-registration.

When an employer hires you, they voluntarily register your employment and pay PAYE.
When you start a new business, you voluntarily register for income tax.

It would in fact be massively out of the ordinary (and a big waste) to introduce a direct tax which does not require the payer to declare and pay.

Would less people register at €500? Probably. Would it make a difference? Nope. The property is still there, they can still find out who owns it.

Ironically if you oppose this charge on the basis of government waste and spending, then you are contributing to that waste and spending because it will require more effort to get money out of you. They will get the money out of you. Not registering doesn't make you invisible.

Bruthal

black francis wrote: »

Course you do.

Hope you keep posting, you're proving far more useful to the 'yes' side than you could possibly guess.

So you will be associating with bill now then....

Mousewar

I'm confused by the whole thing. From reading the Government's own page on the matter, should I not pay I stand to be fined 'only' 10euro if paid within six months of the due date plus another 1% interest per month. So if I hold off for six months I will have to pay 116 euro rather than 100 euro. 16 euro extra doesn't seem like a lot and worth the effort to trying to scupper it (if you're that way inclined).

I'm inclined not to pay it for two reasons.
1 - I don't the idea of filling out this massive internet form giving over all my details on my own initiative.
2 - The Government have tried to introduce similar charges in the past and then backtracked, and then refusing to repay those who paid up. This happened to my parents and many others by the sound of it

Thus, all in all, holding off until around September seems like the way to go for me.
No?

Phill Ewinn

squod wrote: »

The UK are getting something for their money in fairness. I'd pay an affordable council tax too. Trouble is the people running the show over here are not as trust worthy with peoples money.


Yesterdays headlines in the 'Mail said the government is still paying for GP services for 500 dead people.

And check out these numbers.....

Big payouts for backroom HSE staff

If the government tried even a little tiny bit to save €160m they could do it in a heartbeat. Clearly what we have are bullies who hate poor people. They do not have my support.

+1. Not even trying. What will Europe do when they discover this kind of stuff? Fine us? Makes us pay even more tax to pay the fines?

donalg1

robbie7730 wrote: »

Your confused there. I said the governments plan was to introduce a "paltry" level tax, and get everyone registered, in preparation for the real hit.

I never said those not registered will never have to pay. But if people are going to protest, not registering is the way to do that. If enough dont register, it sends out a message.

You suggested self registering was never going to work. Why did you not advise your leaders then, and save us all yet more wastage with leaflets etc?

My leaders ok, whatever that means.

What message does it send out exactly. The only message I can see it sending out is that people cant be relied upon to pay through self declaration.

mikom

Mousewar wrote: »

I'm inclined not to pay it for two reasons.
1 - I don't the idea of filling out this massive internet form giving over all my details on my own initiative.

Nor would I........

The Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) has access to information on payments by the State. This statutory right of access is designed to allow the C&AG to audit and report on the accounts of public bodies. Much of the audit processing of data by the Office is carried out on laptop computers using proprietary software.


In a press release on 1 August 2008 the Office reported that 16 laptops had been stolen over the past ten years. Following an examination of its audit files, and interviews with staff, three of these laptops have been identified as containing data that could, if improperly disclosed, be misused. This examination was finalised in the past week.
The personal information contained on the three computers falls into two categories – data where a PPSN or banking details or both were held relating to the payrolls of certain public bodies and data relating to social welfare scheme payments.


One of the computers lost was used on the audit of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. It was stolen in April 2007. At that time, the matter was reported to the Gardai and the Department.



In regard to data held on the machine, which covered a maximum of 380,000 records the Office is assisting the Department to identify those clients for whom personal data was recorded and, in particular, those cases where payments were made through personal bank accounts.
The C&AG regrets the loss of the laptop computers and the risk that the information on them could be improperly disclosed or misused.


http://audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1107

Mousewar wrote: »

2 - The Government have tried to introduce similar charges in the past and then backtracked, and then refusing to repay those who paid up. This happened to my parents and many others by the sound of it

Thus, all in all, holding off until around September seems like the way to go for me.
No?

Yep.

Bruthal

seamus wrote: »

Practically all direct taxation is done by self-registration.

When an employer hires you, they voluntarily register your employment and pay PAYE.
When you start a new business, you voluntarily register for income tax.

It would in fact be massively out of the ordinary (and a big waste) to introduce a direct tax which does not require the payer to declare and pay.

Would less people register at €500? Probably. Would it make a difference? Nope. The property is still there, they can still find out who owns it.

Just because i said the goverments low level introductory tax will encourage regestrations, that does not mean i think not registering will mean never paying it. I think i was clear enough about that already.
Time will tell what happens.

Ironically if you oppose this charge on the basis of government waste and spending, then you are contributing to that waste and spending because it will require more effort to get money out of you.

Improvements in efficiency are usually through learning from innefficient mistakes.

They will get the money out of you. Not registering doesn't make you invisible.

They always get money out of us. But a tipping point will be reached. You said they can tax their way out of this, im not convinced on this.

Wild Bill

black francis wrote: »

Course you do.

Hope you keep posting, you're proving far more useful to the 'yes' side than you could possibly guess.

Will do. The "yes" side of what?

Frank Black

Wild Bill wrote: »

Will do. The "yes" side of what?

The clue is in the thread title.

Wild Bill

black francis wrote: »

Course you do.

Hope you keep posting, you're proving far more useful to the 'yes' side than you could possibly guess.

I'm not here to win friends (:rolleyes:) or influence people - just to call out moral and political hypocrisy, stupidity and ignorance as I encounter it (and amuse meself, if no one else) - Unlike some, I don't harbour any illusions that what's written here will affect anything - see the even the unchanging poll here - hasn't moved outside a 0.5% band even as the total vote doubled.

Default is inevitable; the current political Establishment is doomed; there is nothing you or I can say to change that - except I'm not advocating daft denial-based policies while we await the day of reckoning.

It would, though, be a service to the nation if we could hasten the collapse of the euro-scam - so while the drones ignore me I still persist in trying to warn them - I'm just a good kinda guy. :cool:

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

What message does it send out exactly. The only message I can see it sending out is that people cant be relied upon to pay through self declaration.

Its sending out a message that people think its an unjust tax. You dint believe that. Thats fine.

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its sending out a message that people think its an unjust tax. You dint believe that. Thats fine.

And what is your (or anyone else's, for that matter) alternative for plugging the gaping hole in our public finances?

Keeping in mind that this problem exists EXCLUSIVELY of the banking debt.

Phill Ewinn

Wild Bill wrote: »

I still persist in trying to warn them - I'm just a good kinda guy. :cool:

Wouldn't bother. People who voted FG to ruin the country. The ''we will pay our way'' Noonan brigade are banging their hands together every time another job is lost or another young person emigrates.

Financial ruin is what they voted for y'know.

Frank Black

Wild Bill wrote: »

I'm not here to win friends (:rolleyes:) or influence people - just to call out moral and political hypocrisy, stupidity and ignorance as I encounter it (and amuse meself, if no one else) - Unlike some, I don't harbour any illusions that what's written here will affect anything - see the even the unchanging poll here - hasn't moved outside a 0.5% band even as the total vote doubled.

Default is inevitable; the current political Establishment is doomed; there is nothing you or I can say to change that - except I'm not advocating daft denial-based policies while we await the day of reckoning.

It would, though, be a service to the nation if we could hasten the collapse of the euro-scam - so while the drones ignore me I still persist in trying to warn them - I'm just a good kinda guy. :cool:

We're doomed, we're doomed!

Time to start hoarding the guns and gold!

Down with the establishment! - Long live the New Order!

Be honest now - you're a 19 year old philosophy student, with some radical-chic friends who likes to sit in coffee shops discussing the fall of the establishment while quoting Marx knowingly at one another.

You don't even own a house so aren't liable for the €100 charge anyway.

Please tell me I'm right?

Bruthal

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

And what is your (or anyone else's, for that matter) alternative for plugging the gaping hole in our public finances?

Keeping in mind that this problem exists EXCLUSIVELY of the banking debt.

Whats yours, get it from home owners?

donalg1

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Wouldn't bother. People who voted FG to ruin the country. The ''we will pay our way'' Noonan brigade are banging their hands together every time another job is lost or another young person emigrates.

Financial ruin is what they voted for y'know.

The people that voted for FF are the ones that voted to ruin the country, was pretty obvious they were running the country into the ground yet people kept voting for them. Whoever was voted in to power in the last election pretty much had their policies pre determined by the EU IMF anyway so they could have actually got a few lads from on here and voted them in and sure we would still be debating the household charge now.

Wild Bill

black francis wrote: »

We're doomed, we're doomed!

Time to start hoarding the guns and gold!

Down with the establishment! - Long live the New Order!

Be honest now - you're a 19 year old philosophy student, with some radical-chic friends who likes to sit in coffee shops discussing the fall of the establishment while quoting Marx knowingly at one another.

You don't even own a house so aren't liable for the €100 charge anyway.

Please tell me I'm right?

Wrong on all counts

But that's no more than I'd expect from you

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Whats yours, get it from home owners?

It's certainly a viable and equitable solution! Unless you can suggest a fairer alternative?

Bearing in mind that the top 5% of taxpayers are paying a bit under 50% of all income tax receipts, who should pay? Should the top 5% be liable for 75%? Or 100%?

Or perhaps we're all going to have to pay a little more, here and there. What fairer way than to tax what is essentially a massive piece of wealth. I know, the current situation allows for sympathy towards newer homeowners. But such a tax should form a solid part of tax intake going into the future, hopefully seeing the reduction of other, perhaps more important taxes, such as VAT.

Wild Bill

black francis wrote: »

We're doomed, we're doomed!

Who's this "we" :rolleyes:

Persisting with policies based on reality-denial may help you feel good but it won't avert doom.

Remember: the first step to recovery is to remove the cancer.