Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Am Chile

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I'm neither trying to annoy anyone or turn anyone against paying the tax.

I am simply saying that I elected to impose a modest rent increase this year that I had not previously been planning to do. The fact that my tenant is accepting it suggests that the rent is still reasonable.

I believe that everyone has to pay their fair share of tax. I would just prefer if it was levied properly so that the tenant would be Eur140 better off (as it seems unfair that to balance the books I had to double it).

Trust me IM fair from annoyed,your other post will be a nice boost to turn more people, people who are renting against this household tax,

Pete M.

oldyouth wrote: »

So you would be in favour of scrapping the household tax, property tax, water charges and septic tank charge and put up the TV licence, motor tax and PAYE by the same amount? I'd have no problem with that either. Once you accept that someone elses bills have to be paid somehow, in some format. I personally think the new ones are fairer.

I have bno problem paying tax, just to be clear. But having those taxes spent on something other than the welfare of all of the other citizens of this country is something I can never agree with.

oldyouth wrote: »

You're just confirming my point. The bill for the past is sitting on the sideboard, it has to be paid by X date and people are still saying 'it wasn't me'. It has to be paid and all the shouting at the bankers and developers won't get it done. Strip all their assets, yes, but it won't cover the bill.

Excuse me, confirming your point me hole :P

The bill you refer to is not my bill. And no it doesn't have to be paid either.

Pete M.

greenpilot wrote: »

I wont be paying for it. It is apparently for services. What services? I already pay for my water through the group water scheme. I dispose of my own rubbish through the local recycling centre, so I dont use a wheelie bin. And our road has completely broken up over the winter, and Mayo Co. Council wont come along and repair it....so, When I get a legit answer as to where exactly my 100 is going to be spent, then I will think about it.

As for the fools who have already paid for it...well done, you have missed out on the ONLY opportunity we had to show the Greedy Bastards in Dail Eireann that THEY WORK FOR US!....we are an Island of bloody sheep.

For those of you, especially in Rural Ireland, who still havent paid....stand your ground......, after all, even if you wait untill 2013, it will still be only €130, ....Lets wait this one out and ignore the scaremongering.....:mad:

Hear Hear

And don't forget septic tank & water charges coming too, as well as other tax increases, levies, reduced wages.ee tec etc. blah blah

And they are going to wait a whole year before pursuing people for not paying!!

Lot of water to pass under the auld bridge in the meantime like....

TheZohanS

Pete M. wrote: »

Hear Hear

And don't forget septic tank & water charges coming too, as well as other tax increases, levies, reduced wages.ee tec etc. blah blah

And they are going to wait a whole year before pursuing people for not paying!!

Lot of water to pass under the auld bridge in the meantime like....

Exactly, the OAP's didn't let the government walk all over them, why the hell should we?!

Am Chile

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael announced before the election that they would be introducing the household charge if they got elected, people were told what they were voting for. So it will take a massive swing to the Socialist Party to arrive at the situation in the Dail that you envisage. Sinn Fein the government party in the North did nothing to remove council taxes there and I see no reason to think they would behave differently here if they came to power.

It takes neither of those parties in power to get a property tax scrapped,when the medical cards were take from pensioners a few years ago, all it took was a march to get that reversed,people power, same with this a mass boycott will make it unenforceable,I stand by what I said by 2014 if they try and bring in a full property tax with water charges, both fg and labour will face wipeout in the local elections, there other canditates independents,along with sinn fein and the ula whose vote will go up, like the last general election votes for both parties already went up.

Fine Gael announced before the election that they would be introducing the household charge

Before the election leo vararkar came out against a property tax,and a few years prior to it also.

we are being threatened with an annual property tax in 2012.

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?s=property+tax

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=130

Bishop_Donal

Am Chile wrote: »

Trust me IM fair from annoyed,your other post will be a nice boost to turn more people, people who are renting against this household tax,

I genuinely don't think they'll pay it anyway. My point is they'll just end up paying twice it via increased rent (unless their landlord is charging too much already) as it becomes a base cost of providing rental accom.

In terms of the resentment of tenants to pay their share, I really don't see why they feel they deserve special treatment anyway? If someone is to the pin of their collar because they are getting hammered by mortgage payments v rent payments what difference does it make? Why should tenants feel exempt from paying their share of sorting this mess out?

Anyway, bottom line is it has to be paid. Take the medicine (or twice it if you're a delusional tenant who thinks your landlord will volunteer to shoulder it for you). There's plenty more to come, so enjoy this 'taxlite' while you can!!

psychward

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I genuinely don't think they'll pay it anyway. My point is they'll just end up paying twice it via increased rent (unless their landlord is charging too much already) as it becomes a base cost of providing rental accom.

In terms of the resentment of tenants to pay their share, I really don't see why they feel they deserve special treatment anyway? If someone is to the pin of their collar because they are getting hammered by mortgage payments v rent payments what difference does it make? Why should tenants feel exempt from paying their share of sorting this mess out?

Anyway, bottom line is it has to be paid. Take the medicine (or twice it if you're a delusional tenant who thinks your landlord will volunteer to shoulder it for you). There's plenty more to come, so enjoy this 'taxlite' while you can!!

However with the number of empty units and a lot of uncertainty out there a landlord could be reluctant to raise rents for an established good tenant who can easily move elsewhere and risk ending up with no rent and a mortgage to pay which won't go away or a bad tenant who doesn't pay on time or worse. I know a Spanish lady who just left her rented room after almost 5 years when the landlord tried to raise the rent towards the end of the boom. He was begging her to stay and even turned around and reduced it. However she said he was taking the piss and she left to teach him a lesson. She got a nicer place elsewhere for lower rent.
I got to see the new tenants before she moved out. Some had moved into empty rooms already (as a few tenants decided to leave together) smoking pot and drinking all day while their toddler was walking around in bare feet like an urchin. There was a broken glass on the floor and I did my best to clean it up for the sake of the toddler. Not a nice memory. A landlord should consider the pros and the cons unless they are sure they can find a good replacement tenant who will take care of the accommodation and not destroy it.

K-9

Am Chile wrote: »

Before the election leo vararkar came out against a property tax,and a few years prior to it also.



http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?s=property+tax

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=130

He's just one. If people had listened they'd have heard FG say councils would bring it in, but people don't listen. Leo also said we'd burn the bondholders, again not FG policy. Unbelievable people take politicians at their word especially Leo, but there you are.

Bishop_Donal

psychward wrote: »

However with the number of empty units and a lot of uncertainty out there a landlord could be reluctant to raise rents for an established good tenant who can easily move elsewhere and risk ending up with no rent and a mortgage to pay which won't go away or a bad tenant who doesn't pay on time or worse. I know a Spanish lady who just left her rented room after almost 5 years when the landlord tried to raise the rent towards the end of the boom. He was begging her to stay and even turned around and reduced it. However she said he was taking the piss and she left to teach him a lesson. She got a nicer place elsewhere for lower rent.
I got to see the new tenants before she moved out. Some had moved into empty rooms already (as a few tenants decided to leave together) smoking pot and drinking all day while their toddler was walking around in bare feet like an urchin. There was a broken glass on the floor and I did my best to clean it up for the sake of the toddler. Not a nice memory. A landlord should consider the pros and the cons unless they are sure they can find a good replacement tenant who will take care of the accommodation and not destroy it.

I couldn't disagree with one word of what you say.

Basically, it's a calculated risk. If a tenant feels their landlord is unreasonable, they should leave. No question about it, tenants shouldn't be suckers.

However, as I said in an earlier post, the fact that marginal rent (i.e. that portion that is not sheltered by Interest relief) is so high, I was willing to take my chances (and as a consequence my tenant takes a double hit). Even if my tenant had decided to go, I can take at least three months to find another suitable tenant & it only costs me 1.5 months net rent (the revenue take up the balance)!! Thanks Mr Taxman.

Once again, it's the law of diminishing returns from the Revenue perspective.

Untense

The attitudes on this site just baffle me.

THIS DEBT IS. NOT. OURS.

What makes those who don't pay different to the bankers? THEY DIDN'T CREATE THE DEBT.

Stop saying "what other option is there", without actually bothering to find out. There are options if you look and discuss with people.

Stop getting snide with those who are making a stand to push this P.O.S country on a different course. You're incapable of seeing alternatives.

Stop getting annoyed that someone is going against the grain.

You probably take it as a compliment when the likes of Germany praise Ireland's "bailout success". We will default sooner or later. Don't pay these taxes.

You're making choices about our future based on what the neighbouring countries might think. **** the neighbours. It's these attitudes that let Ireland get in to this state in the first place.

There is nothing commendable about leaning over and taking it up the hole. Stop acting like it's something to be proud of.

The Quadratic Equation

I'm delaying payment as long as possible.
From my reading of the terms of this charge, the gaol/wages fine threat only applies in law to REPEAT offenders.
I'm waiting untill March 2013, and then I'll have to pay €130 for 2012 and €100 for 2013, a total of €230.
If everyone did the same, the corrupt politicians would have no option but to review their policy of robbing ordinary people.
I've always paid all my taxes and bills all my life, but I'm not paying for this SCAM where ordinary taxpayers pay off the private debts of billionaire speculators. Ordinary people in England beat Thatchers poll tax, we can do the same. It is the principle I'm standing up for. I will not yield to rich corrupt bullies.

Bishop_Donal

Untense wrote: »

The attitudes on this site just baffle me.

THIS DEBT IS. NOT. OURS.

What makes those who don't pay different to the bankers? THEY DIDN'T CREATE THE DEBT.

Stop saying "what other option is there", without actually bothering to find out. There are options if you look and discuss with people.

Stop getting snide with those who are making a stand to push this P.O.S country on a different course. You're incapable of seeing alternatives.

Stop getting annoyed that someone is going against the grain.

You probably take it as a compliment when the likes of Germany praise Ireland's "bailout success". We will default sooner or later. Don't pay these taxes.

You're making choices about our future based on what the neighbouring countries might think. **** the neighbours. It's these attitudes that let Ireland get in to this state in the first place.

There is nothing commendable about leaning over and taking it up the hole. Stop acting like it's something to be proud of.

I'm guessing the 'Debt' you are referring to is the Bank bailout?

Not one red cent of that debt, or the interest thereon has been repaid by the Irish taxpayer yet. It is a Red Herring.

Increased taxes are required to balance our own internal income v's spending gap. If that could be brought somewhat into equilibrium, we could then address how much of the total national debt should actually sit on the shoulders of the Irish taxpayer. But you don't need to worry about that until then, cos the interest component of the problem is still minimal in relative terms.

The problem is that there is an entitlement culture in this country. Certain people just seem to think that someone else should keep funding the excess spending here & it just doesn't work like that.

There are millions of people in Africa who feel they are entitled to food, but that doesn't mean they get it. The sooner the Irish get to grips with the theory that you are entitled to what you earn, the better for everyone.

That means big cuts in Social Welfare, big cuts in Public Expenditure & tax to the point where any further increase results in a decreased take.

tayto lover

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

I'm delaying payment as long as possible.
From my reading of the terms of this charge, the gaol/wages fine threat only applies in law to REPEAT offenders.
I'm waiting untill March 2013, and then I'll have to pay €130 for 2012 and €100 for 2013, a total of €230.
If everyone did the same, the corrupt politicians would have no option but to review their policy of robbing ordinary people.
I've always paid all my taxes and bills all my life, but I'm not paying for this SCAM where ordinary taxpayers pay off the private debts of billionaire speculators. Ordinary people in England beat Thatchers poll tax, we can do the same. It is the principle I'm standing up for. I will not yield to rich corrupt bullies.

1. If you don't pay the Property Tax you will be fined in court.
2. If you don't pay the fine you will face prison.
3. There is no space in prison so they will send you home.
End of story. Don't pay. We need to be as thick-skinned as the politicians who got us here with their Banker cronies.

onedaysoon

I'm going to commit suicide..**** this ****

psychward

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Not one red cent of that debt, or the interest thereon has been repaid by the Irish taxpayer yet. It is a Red Herring.

I wouldn't exactly say that. Unguaranteed bondholders are getting paid back. And the reason we are excluded from the bondmarkets and are being charged a punitive interest rate there is due to the bankster debt added on top of regular debt.
While we tax ourselves into serfdom to pay this bankster debt back , the interest on our regular debt is being compounded . It's all being compounded while we should be growing the economy and servicing regular debt. And the regular normal sovereign debt is a debt we can't use any moral argument to get out of paying.

Ghandee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I genuinely don't think they'll pay it anyway. My point is they'll just end up paying twice it via increased rent (unless their landlord is charging too much already) as it becomes a base cost of providing rental accom.

In terms of the resentment of tenants to pay their share, I really don't see why they feel they deserve special treatment anyway? If someone is to the pin of their collar because they are getting hammered by mortgage payments v rent payments what difference does it make? Why should tenants feel exempt from paying their share of sorting this mess out?

Anyway, bottom line is it has to be paid. Take the medicine (or twice it if you're a delusional tenant who thinks your landlord will volunteer to shoulder it for you). There's plenty more to come, so enjoy this 'taxlite' while you can!!

I thought the tax was on property/properties an individual owns

What gives you our any other landlord the right to make someone else pay a tax that you are liable for?

Would you ask them to tax your car/TV etc?

Btw, I'll not be paying it either. If we all stood together rather than a bunch of cowardly sheep we could collectively tell fg a firm no.

Am in absolute shock that some clowns on here actually support this, wonder how they'll feel when it jumps up to a thousand or so in a few years time?

dxhound2005

Am Chile wrote: »

It takes neither of those parties in power to get a property tax scrapped,when the medical cards were take from pensioners a few years ago, all it took was a march to get that reversed,people power, same with this a mass boycott will make it unenforceable,I stand by what I said by 2014 if they try and bring in a full property tax with water charges, both fg and labour will face wipeout in the local elections, there other canditates independents,along with sinn fein and the ula whose vote will go up, like the last general election votes for both parties already went up.

Before the election leo vararkar came out against a property tax,and a few years prior to it also.

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?s=property+tax

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=130

That is just an example of an ex opposition politician being forced to deal with the realities of being in power. Joe Higgins, Joan Collins and the rest of them will lead people up the garden path from their comfortable positions in the Dail but they will not be around to pick up the pieces years down the line when houses are being sold. And what is even more disgraceful is that Joe Higgins handed over his European Parliament seat to Paul Murphy who gets his massive salary eventhough nobody ever heard of him never mind elected him.

K-9

Untense wrote: »

The attitudes on this site just baffle me.

THIS DEBT IS. NOT. OURS.

What makes those who don't pay different to the bankers? THEY DIDN'T CREATE THE DEBT.

The €18 Billion deficit isn't bank debt, it's debt to pay Welfare, PS pay and other service. Even if the bank debt magiced away €18 Billion needed to be found last year, €12/13 Billion at best next year.

Stop saying "what other option is there", without actually bothering to find out. There are options if you look and discuss with people.

Stop getting snide with those who are making a stand to push this P.O.S country on a different course. You're incapable of seeing alternatives.

I've seen a few alternatives, all pretty small and not relieving the need to increase taxes. Maybe you have some?

Stop getting annoyed that someone is going against the grain.

You probably take it as a compliment when the likes of Germany praise Ireland's "bailout success". We will default sooner or later. Don't pay these taxes.

You're making choices about our future based on what the neighbouring countries might think. **** the neighbours. It's these attitudes that let Ireland get in to this state in the first place.

Doesn't matter what others think.

There is nothing commendable about leaning over and taking it up the hole. Stop acting like it's something to be proud of.

You convinced me there. Homophobic as well!

The Quadratic Equation

tayto lover wrote: »

1. If you don't pay the Property Tax you will be fined in court.
2. If you don't pay the fine you will face prison.
3. There is no space in prison so they will send you home.

and 2., the new debtors legislation allows to courts the option between goal, or directing it is removed from directly from your wages at source untill paid off, instead of gaoling you. This is the option they will use.

The key point everyone is missing is they can only take you to court to pay for a REPEAT offence, i.e. no payment by March 2013 at the earliest. So if everyone did not pay anything until March 2013, the tax can be broken.

The Quadratic Equation

onedaysoon wrote: »

I'm going to commit suicide..**** this ****

Thats exactly what Bertie and his golden circle FF/FG pals want you to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjGSfuSQpA

The people who laughed hard at his remarks that day haven't gone away you know.

I wouldn't give Bertie and his golden circle cronies the satisfaction, they'll be able to extract the household charge from your estate instead. So the best option is for everyone to refuse to pay a cent untill March 2013, which is the earliest date they can take anyone to court. If everyone did that it would collapse.

Pete M.

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I'm guessing the 'Debt' you are referring to is the Bank bailout?

Not one red cent of that debt, or the interest thereon has been repaid by the Irish taxpayer yet. It is a Red Herring.

Increased taxes are required to balance our own internal income v's spending gap. If that could be brought somewhat into equilibrium, we could then address how much of the total national debt should actually sit on the shoulders of the Irish taxpayer. But you don't need to worry about that until then, cos the interest component of the problem is still minimal in relative terms.

The problem is that there is an entitlement culture in this country. Certain people just seem to think that someone else should keep funding the excess spending here & it just doesn't work like that.

There are millions of people in Africa who feel they are entitled to food, but that doesn't mean they get it. The sooner the Irish get to grips with the theory that you are entitled to what you earn, the better for everyone.

That means big cuts in Social Welfare, big cuts in Public Expenditure & tax to the point where any further increase results in a decreased take.

Whoa! That is some fcuked up logic you got going on there your disgrace if I may.
People in Africa are entitled to food and indeed they are entitled to a lot fcuking more.
What we generally get for the work we do is way below what it should be, that is why some greedy b@stards get rich, from taking advantage of the vulnerable.
And I don't know where you have been for the past couple of years, but to describe the bank bailout as a red herring and to suggest that our main problem is merely the discrepancy between income and expenditure shows just how warped some peoples logic has become.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That is just an example of an ex opposition politician being forced to deal with the realities of being in power. Joe Higgins, Joan Collins and the rest of them will lead people up the garden path from their comfortable positions in the Dail but they will not be around to pick up the pieces years down the line when houses are being sold. And what is even more disgraceful is that Joe Higgins handed over his European Parliament seat to Paul Murphy who gets his massive salary eventhough nobody ever heard of him never mind elected him.

You obviously don't really understand what is going on do you?
I have chosen not to pay this unfair, unjust and fcuked up levy through my own volition and wouldn't be expecting JH or JC or any other representative to 'be there' for me down the line.
And you think it disgraceful that a Socialist Party member would legitimately hand over his seat in the mickey mouse EP to another party member and get the massive salary, which as far as I know goes into party coffers and Murphy takes the average industrial wage (as do all SP and SF TDs btw), but you wouldn't pass remark on the political dynasties we have in this country where sons & daughters get co-opted in to Local Authorities and get through elections on their family reputations?

Warped I tells ya :cool:

Am Chile

Joe Higgins, Joan Collins and the rest of them will lead people up the garden path from their comfortable positions in the Dail

There,s no one leading me or Influencing not to pay the household tax, its my own Individual choice,last july when the household tax was first announced, before any campaign called for non payment,people I know friends,relatives said they wouldn,t pay, people wrote into newspapers saying they wouldn,t pay people were already ringing into radio talk shows stating they wouldn,t pay.

mickydoomsux

Dude, learn difference between a comma and an apostrophe.

ThePower11

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Dude, learn difference between a comma and an apostrophe.

Dude, learn how and where to insert the word "the".

mickydoomsux

ThePower11 wrote: »

Dude, learn how and where to insert the word "the".

That always happens to me when i'm trying to be Internet Pedant Man

Jose1

Am Chile wrote: »

I won,t be paying now, I won,t be paying in march, and I won,t be paying any fines.

'Braveheart!'

I can almost picture you standing on the steps of the G.P.O.I'll come back later in the year to see how this panned out for you. Should I order you a hacksaw in the meantime:D

Gareth2011

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

and 2., the new debtors legislation allows to courts the option between goal, or directing it is removed from directly from your wages at source untill paid off, instead of gaoling you. This is the option they will use.

The key point everyone is missing is they can only take you to court to pay for a REPEAT offence, i.e. no payment by March 2013 at the earliest. So if everyone did not pay anything until March 2013, the tax can be broken.

I thought if you don't pay by end of march then the penalties start racking up? Besides weren't they saying they might look at taking it from peoples wages, social welfare if they refuse to pay? How could you not pay if they do it that way?

what a day

Sure just tax my tax that you taxed the last time before you increased it.

No im not paying it, sick of paying tax. Im one of the ones lucky enough to still have a job but some times i think my life would be better on the dole. Whats this tax for? How many houses in ireland? How many more billion to we have to fork out?

Na no thanks, sick to death for paying so much tax and i get nothing in return. Terrible hospital service, terrible roads to get to a low paying job that give pay cuts higher tax rates.

Do amish people have to pay? I want to live off the land, gonna grow some veg out the back garden.:mad:

Am Chile

Gareth2011 wrote: »

I thought if you don't pay by end of march then the penalties start racking up? Besides weren't they saying they might look at taking it from peoples wages, social welfare if they refuse to pay? How could you not pay if they do it that way?

To address the rumours of taking from welfare/wages, At the moment its only talk,some points Il make on that, one under present law they can,t do it,two ifs doubtful they can change the law to do it both legally and constitionly, thirdly for arguments sake lets say they could do under present law it would still require a court order,and with signifigant amount of people refusing to pay the courts would be very clogged up,fourth the can,t pay/won,t pay campaign has a legal team ready to challenge such stuff in court and to defend all non payers.


The realisation that some people were willing to go to jail in opposition to this household tax led the government to attempt to change tactics.

CAHWT members discussed the possibility of this strategy being used by the establishment as long as eighteen months ago and how it could be counteracted. For every tactic the government adopts, the CAHWT has a range of ways of dealing with them.

The implementation of this tactic will still lead to a major problem for the government trying to impose it through the courts and that does not take into account other measures of opposition that the CAHWT will launch.

HovaBaby

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Dude, learn difference between a comma and an apostrophe.

Dude, learn how to spell "Dude.

It's Duuuuuuuude.