Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Jon_459

tayto lover wrote: »

1. If you don't pay the Property Tax you will be fined in court.
2. If you don't pay the fine you will face prison.
3. There is no space in prison so they will send you home.
End of story. Don't pay. We need to be as thick-skinned as the politicians who got us here with their Banker cronies.

No one will go to jail - the Govt are ammending the law to allow the courts issue directives to have the charge and any fines deducted from you wages or social welfare payment.

Am Chile

Jon_459 wrote: »

No one will go to jail - the Govt are ammending the law to allow the courts issue directives to have the charge and any fines deducted from you wages or social welfare payment.

And when there,s mass boycott of it, the courts are gonna be very clogged up,

To address the rumours of taking from welfare/wages, At the moment its only talk,some points Il make on that, one under present law they can,t do it,two ifs doubtful they can change the law to do it both legally and constitionly, thirdly for arguments sake lets say they could do under present law it would still require a court order,and with signifigant amount of people refusing to pay the courts would be very clogged up,fourth the can,t pay/won,t pay campaign has a legal team ready to challenge such stuff in court and to defend all non payers.


The realisation that some people were willing to go to jail in opposition to this household tax led the government to attempt to change tactics.

CAHWT members discussed the possibility of this strategy being used by the establishment as long as eighteen months ago and how it could be counteracted. For every tactic the government adopts, the CAHWT has a range of ways of dealing with them.

The implementation of this tactic will still lead to a major problem for the government trying to impose it through the courts and that does not take into account other measures of opposition that the CAHWT will launch.

Chips Lovell

I doubt we'll see a mass boycott. Given the numbers who've paid in the first week alone (13,000 by the last count) it seems like most are going to pay.

Jay D

I don't know. Obviously i don't want to pay it. Like it's ok enough already paying tax to rent it then more of this. Just go f*ck off you bastards. Hopefully the opposition group gain enough credibility. Funny how one of the ministers at the time said they can't go breaking the law bla bla bla. What a w*nker. The vote of that minority definitely does not represent what most people are feeling.

The RTE stories now showing how such large uptakes in payment is a clear sign people agree etc etc... I'm not sure, as fluctuating as the reports seem to be on that site everyday now, why don't they just post a headline like, we will do whatever the government tell us, or something?

Am Chile

There,s being a u turn already, originally people living in unfinished houseing estate were excempt, people in unfinished estates now have to pay the household tax,one u turn already,if they succeed in bringing in a full property tax, watch other excemptions like those on mortgage interest supplement going too.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/majority-living-in-ghost-estates-wont-escape-household-charge-2981515.html

Am Chile

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I doubt we'll see a mass boycott. Given the numbers who've paid in the first week alone (13,000 by the last count) it seems like most are going to pay.

The RTE stories now showing how such large uptakes in payment is a clear sign people agree

I think people should do the maths on this one - the government want to get 1.6million households to register for this between now and the end of March i.e over a 12 week period. That works out at nearly 135,000 people per week - puts the 13,000 figure paying into perspective.

I checked the RTE website 9am wednesday and it said 700 people had paid the charge a few hours later at one o clock news they said 2000 registered to pay,. I doubt they’ve had 1300 people pay in that space of a few short hours. fox news spin at its finest.

I have to question What “average couple” etc. with kids has money after the XMAS holidays to pay this straight away in the first few days of January. A very slick PR campaign has been launched to scare people into payment. It is a very cynical move,It seems like an awful lot of people are showing an interest in paying a new tax very very quickly. Are those with a vested interest trying to create a surge in early payments? Who the hell goes out and pays a newly created tax in the first week in January after the Christmas holidays when the apparent deadline imposed is the 31 March. Also to the best of my knowledge they hadn,t even advertised the website and payment details all that much so I don,t know how over 2000 people already knew about it. . As a matter of interest when registering I beleive details on your water supply connection are also taken....so they are all set up for the next charge.

Quick question to those who might beleive the 13,000 figures , most of us are also aware about the public anger at septic tank charges, some of us have seen the protests in galway and donegal just before christmas, if rte ran a story tomorrow claiming over 4,000 registered to pay the septic tank charges in a few short hours,would you beleive it or would you take it with a grain of salt?

I don't know. Obviously i don't want to pay it

Well if you don,t want to pay it, contact the can,t pay campaign in your local area.

Chips Lovell

Am Chile wrote: »

I checked the RTE website 9am wednesday and it said 700 people had paid the charge a few hours later at one o clock news they said 2000 registered to pay,. I doubt they’ve had 1300 people pay in that space of a few short hours. fox news spin at its finest.

I have to question What “average couple” etc. with kids has money after the XMAS holidays to pay this straight away in the first few days of January. A very slick PR campaign has been launched to scare people into payment.

The conspiracy theory forum is that way ==>

donalg1

Jay D wrote: »

I don't know. Obviously i don't want to pay it. Like it's ok enough already paying tax to rent it then more of this. Just go f*ck off you bastards. Hopefully the opposition group gain enough credibility. Funny how one of the ministers at the time said they can't go breaking the law bla bla bla. What a w*nker. The vote of that minority definitely does not represent what most people are feeling.

The RTE stories now showing how such large uptakes in payment is a clear sign people agree etc etc... I'm not sure, as fluctuating as the reports seem to be on that site everyday now, why don't they just post a headline like, we will do whatever the government tell us, or something?

Hard to imagine the opposition group gaining enough credibility when Mick Wallace is one of the leaders of it.

Am Chile

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The conspiracy theory forum is that way ==>

And do you actually believe they got a few thousand to register and pay in a few short hours wednesday?

Chips Lovell

Am Chile wrote: »

And do you actually believe they got a few thousand to register and pay in a few short hours wednesday?

Yes. And you've furnished no evidence that a.) the government is falsifying returns and b.) RTE is complicit in it.

Jay D

Am Chile wrote: »

I think people should do the maths on this one - the government want to get 1.6million households to register for this between now and the end of March i.e over a 12 week period. That works out at nearly 135,000 people per week - puts the 13,000 figure paying into perspective.

I checked the RTE website 9am wednesday and it said 700 people had paid the charge a few hours later at one o clock news they said 2000 registered to pay,. I doubt they’ve had 1300 people pay in that space of a few short hours. fox news spin at its finest.

I have to question What “average couple” etc. with kids has money after the XMAS holidays to pay this straight away in the first few days of January. A very slick PR campaign has been launched to scare people into payment. It is a very cynical move,It seems like an awful lot of people are showing an interest in paying a new tax very very quickly. Are those with a vested interest trying to create a surge in early payments? Who the hell goes out and pays a newly created tax in the first week in January after the Christmas holidays when the apparent deadline imposed is the 31 March. Also to the best of my knowledge they hadn,t even advertised the website and payment details all that much so I don,t know how over 2000 people already knew about it. . As a matter of interest when registering I beleive details on your water supply connection are also taken....so they are all set up for the next charge.

Quick question to those who might beleive the 13,000 figures , most of us are also aware about the public anger at septic tank charges, some of us have seen the protests in galway and donegal just before christmas, if rte ran a story tomorrow claiming over 4,000 registered to pay the septic tank charges in a few short hours,would you beleive it or would you take it with a grain of salt?



Well if you don,t want to pay it, contact the can,t pay campaign in your local area.

My thoughts pretty much, fabricated load of balls. Genuinely knew about it but def wasn't aware of any website it could be done on.

Jay D

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Yes. And you've furnished no evidence that a.) the government is falsifying returns and b.) RTE is complicit in it.

Where is your evidence? Do you believe everything you read or do you have access to figures?

Chips Lovell

Jay D wrote: »

Where is your evidence? Do you believe everything you read or do you have access to figures?

Are you seriously asking me to prove a negative?

A: X exists
B: Can you prove it?
A: Can you prove it doesn't?

Excellent logic there.;)

Jay D

Yeah you're talking crap. Kinda knew you were anyway. My point was that RTE are pro government, your point seems to be that of a sheep. Lead to believe whatever you are given. Or maybe even a member of those who passed this law. Not sure but your reasoning is nothing.

donalg1

Am Chile wrote: »

I think people should do the maths on this one - the government want to get 1.6million households to register for this between now and the end of March i.e over a 12 week period. That works out at nearly 135,000 people per week - puts the 13,000 figure paying into perspective.

I checked the RTE website 9am wednesday and it said 700 people had paid the charge a few hours later at one o clock news they said 2000 registered to pay,. I doubt they’ve had 1300 people pay in that space of a few short hours. fox news spin at its finest.

I have to question What “average couple” etc. with kids has money after the XMAS holidays to pay this straight away in the first few days of January. A very slick PR campaign has been launched to scare people into payment. It is a very cynical move,It seems like an awful lot of people are showing an interest in paying a new tax very very quickly. Are those with a vested interest trying to create a surge in early payments? Who the hell goes out and pays a newly created tax in the first week in January after the Christmas holidays when the apparent deadline imposed is the 31 March. Also to the best of my knowledge they hadn,t even advertised the website and payment details all that much so I don,t know how over 2000 people already knew about it. . As a matter of interest when registering I beleive details on your water supply connection are also taken....so they are all set up for the next charge.

Quick question to those who might beleive the 13,000 figures , most of us are also aware about the public anger at septic tank charges, some of us have seen the protests in galway and donegal just before christmas, if rte ran a story tomorrow claiming over 4,000 registered to pay the septic tank charges in a few short hours,would you beleive it or would you take it with a grain of salt?



Well if you don,t want to pay it, contact the can,t pay campaign in your local area.

Given that this has been widely discussed before the budget and everyone knew they would have to pay it from January they could easily have been putting a few euro aside each week for it in preparation.

Am Chile

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Yes. And you've furnished no evidence that a.) the government is falsifying returns and b.) RTE is complicit in it.

Did you also beleive the yes to jobs line we all heard before lisbon referendum two?

We all know everything in the media isn,t always true, some of you may also remember this spin story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

Chips Lovell

Jay D wrote: »

Yeah you're talking crap. Kinda knew you were anyway. My point was that RTE are pro government, your point seems to be that of a sheep. Lead to believe whatever you are given. Or maybe even a member of those who passed this law. Not sure but your reasoning is nothing.

Good man.

Frank Black

Jay D wrote: »

Where is your evidence? Do you believe everything you read or do you have access to figures?

You're right, the paranoid ramblings of the internet warriors are a far more trustworthy news source.

Chips Lovell

Am Chile wrote: »

Did you also beleive the yes to jobs line we all heard before lisbon referendum two?

I do. Did you look at the front page of the Irish Times today?

mickydoomsux

What average couple can pay it?

The vast majority. €100 is only a significant amount to an absolutely tiny minority of people.

Also, I fully believe that a few thousand will already have paid it because there are a lot of people who see that it is a necessary evil and just want to get it over and done with to be compliant with the law.

The TDs coming out against it and refusing to pay it are completely irresponsible for not only advocating breaking the law but they are also hypocrites because the money they get paid comes out of the big pot-o-cash from the tax take, including this new tax.

DoesNotCompute

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I doubt we'll see a mass boycott. Given the numbers who've paid in the first week alone (13,000 by the last count) it seems like most are going to pay.

Here, here, all the internet keyboard warriors on this thread will be paying soon enough.

Ogham

A few points

a) 13000 paying it is a tiny amount compared to the 1.7 million who they hope will pay it . It's just something to try and get the press and RTE to run a story and publicise the tax.

b) If you don't pay it - they have to find you and prove you own a liable residential property before they can prosecute you or charge you penalties. The other main reason for this Household Charge legislation (as it clearly states) is " TO REQUIRE THE FURNISHING OF INFORMATION RELATING TO EACH SUCH PROPERTY TO ENABLE THE PREPARATION OF A DATABASE OF RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES IN THE STATE"
They don't know exactly who owns what or even where all the houses are.
They are relying on everyone to tell them. They are probably not going to have the people or the money to go out tracking down non payers for the sake of 100 euro.

c) The total they expect to get (160 Million) is a drop in the ocean when compared to the massive tax reliefs given to developers and the banks profits in the good times...

see http://www.moneyguideireland.com/e160-million-what-could-you-get-for-that.html


Good Luck!

Am Chile

The TDs coming out against it and refusing to pay it are completely irresponsible for not only advocating breaking the law

The law isn,t always right and just,slavery and apartheid were acceptable at one time,I will always commend anyone who breaks unjust laws like Rosa Parks when she broke an unjust law by refusing to give up her seat,and those who defied Putin recently and took to the streets fair play to them,and fair play to the 18 tds and numermous councilers who will boycott the household tax.

mickydoomsux

Am Chile wrote: »

The TDs coming out against it and refusing to pay it are completely irresponsible for not only advocating breaking the law

The law isn,t always right and just,slavery and apartheid were acceptable at one time,I will always commend anyone who breaks unjust laws like Rosa Parks when she broke an unjust law by refusing to give up her seat,and those who defied Putin recently and took to the streets fair play to them,and fair play to the 18 tds and numermous councilers who will boycott the household tax.

Who are you to decide what laws are "right"?

This also has zero in common with equal rights struggles so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring those points up.

Am Chile

They are relying on everyone to tell them. They are probably not going to have the people or the money to go out tracking down non payers for the sake of 100 euro.

My thoughts exactly, at the moment hundreds have not paid the second home tax and they weren,t tracked down.

HUNDREDS of people are likely to escape the tax on second homes after the authorities admitted it is too expensive and time consuming to pursue those who have refused to pay it.

But so far councils have been relying on property owners to declare the second homes themselves

The Department of the Environment admitted resources were not available to pinpoint the identities of those dodging the €200-a-year non-principal private residence (NPPR) charge.

A spokesman said it would be a costly and time-consuming task to correlate information from land registry records -- a task beyond the capabilities of most cash-strapped county councils.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-escape-secondhome-tax-2913935.html

Am Chile

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Who are you to decide what laws are "right"?

This also has zero in common with equal rights struggles so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring those points up.

Its not just me thinking this way about the household tax,there,s a lot of other people who feel exactly the same way, from your other post when you or someone else says its the law,you re coming across as someone who,s arguing the law is always right no matter what, Im saying its not always right no matter what and so are a lot of other people.

Ogham

One more point

That figure of 13000 registered could be suspect..

It is very easy to register a fake property under a fake name . If many people do that it would totally mess up the database. I wouln't be surprised if "anti household charge " did it as a protest.
You can set up a property without paying.

It is possible to register as a person living outside Ireland - No PPS number required. It takes any made up address - it might try and check it against "known" addresses - but it gives you the option of telling it to take the one you have entered.
No email address validation is carried out (unless you want to pay by D.Debit)
Mobile number optional if you tick "no text messages"

I am of course not suggesting anyone should do this.

Because there are no signatures - it will also be easy for people to register other people's houses "for them". It could be a right mess!

donalg1

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Who are you to decide what laws are "right"?

This also has zero in common with equal rights struggles so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring those points up.

+1

I can't really see the comparison between Rosa Parks and the people not paying this tax either.

Galtee

mickydoomsux wrote: »

What average couple can pay it?

The vast majority. €100 is only a significant amount to an absolutely tiny minority of people.

Also, I fully believe that a few thousand will already have paid it because there are a lot of people who see that it is a necessary evil and just want to get it over and done with to be compliant with the law.

The TDs coming out against it and refusing to pay it are completely irresponsible for not only advocating breaking the law but they are also hypocrites because the money they get paid comes out of the big pot-o-cash from the tax take, including this new tax.

If it is genuinely the case that the country is as bad as they (the government) say it is and the country is in such a terrible financial state that it needs this property tax and it has indeed been imposed by the IMF (which I seriously doubt) then those opposing politicians would know the exact ins and outs of it as they are in the dail every day discussing this with the advocates of the charge, yet they choose to come out and fight it? Seems strange to me.

Galtee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I'm guessing the 'Debt' you are referring to is the Bank bailout?

Not one red cent of that debt, or the interest thereon has been repaid by the Irish taxpayer yet. It is a Red Herring.

Increased taxes are required to balance our own internal income v's spending gap. If that could be brought somewhat into equilibrium, we could then address how much of the total national debt should actually sit on the shoulders of the Irish taxpayer. But you don't need to worry about that until then, cos the interest component of the problem is still minimal in relative terms.

The problem is that there is an entitlement culture in this country. Certain people just seem to think that someone else should keep funding the excess spending here & it just doesn't work like that.

There are millions of people in Africa who feel they are entitled to food, but that doesn't mean they get it. The sooner the Irish get to grips with the theory that you are entitled to what you earn, the better for everyone.

That means big cuts in Social Welfare, big cuts in Public Expenditure & tax to the point where any further increase results in a decreased take.

You are dead right, you are entitled to what you earn, this is the whole point, people are earning the money but it's being taken straight out of their pocket again just as quick, it's a disgrace. And as for the red herring you mention, It doesn't matter whether the money is paid from todays wages or not, it's being taken off the people now so that the government can plug holes in sh1tty fcuking banks so whether the money is paid back today or in ten years it's the irish tax payer who will be paying it back ffs.