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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #8462
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    Property was pushed by financial advisors, pension advisors, banks, government ministers etc. Everyone was told to buy. Then there were first time buyers who bought apartments to get on the ladder. Now the want to have families and move on and can't. There's also thousands who want to sell and go back to renting and can't, thousands that want to sell and move abroad and can't. It's a major issue and just because you don't plan on moving it doesn't mean there's no issue there.

    Here before you try deny you said it I have highlighted it for you.


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    #8463
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Exactly now you are getting it.



    Most of the population is in Dublin really, enough said from you now I have heard it all. That statement means I can never again take anything you have to say seriously, I would stick it up there with the most bizarre posts ever on boards. And I thought it couldnt get worse than your affordable housing / clawback misunderstandings.



    You said they were told to buy them a few posts back. So they took a risk and it backfired well boo hoo for them, I still dont see how negative equity affects anyone that is not intending to sell their house.

    Can you explain it to me? I buy a house for 200k today and next year the price falls to 180k? How does this affect me if I have no intention of selling it?

    Because you have an asset that is worth less therefore your balance sheet is negatively affected.


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    #8464
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    mconigol wrote: »
    Because you have an asset that is worth less therefore your balance sheet is negatively affected.

    But again what difference does it make to me if I do not intend to sell.


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    #8465
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    mconigol wrote: »


    If you say so...



    I got it from your post stating that you consider 40% to be a success. You obviously consider this to be an acceptable level of achievement. Personally I feel that 40% is never a success at anything, generally 40% is just about considered a pass rate.

    Yes, I do say so - saying you disagree with my assertion of 40% being a success is different than accusing me of backtracking.
    Unless the definition of backtracking has been altered.

    And in terms of something being a 'success' - would the goverenment prefer if the compliance rate was 100% - absolutely.
    Will they consider scrapping the charge iof only 40% register by the deadline - absolutely not.

    Therefore by the main criteria which the anti-tax protesters are using to judge thier campaign, the goverenment will have been seccessfull.


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    #8466
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    donalg1 wrote: »
    But again what difference does it make to me if I do not intend to sell.

    Your assets are worth less!

    It's a very basic financial principle.


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    #8467
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    black francis wrote: »
    Yes, I do say so - saying you disagree with my assertion of 40% being a success is different than accusing me of backtracking.
    Unless the definition of backtracking has been altered.

    And in terms of something being a 'success' - would the goverenment prefer if the compliance rate was 100% - absolutely.
    Will they consider scrapping the charge iof only 40% register by the deadline - absolutely not.

    Therefore by the main criteria which the anti-tax protesters are using to judge thier campaign, the goverenment will have been seccessfull.

    Careful not to fall down with all that spinning your doing.


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    #8468
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Most of the population is in Dublin really, enough said from you now I have heard it all. That statement means I can never again take anything you have to say seriously, I would stick it up there with the most bizarre posts ever on boards.
    You know what I meant. 25% of the population live in Dublin. Must you have everything spelled out to the last letter?
    donalg1 wrote: »
    And I thought it couldnt get worse than your affordable housing / clawback misunderstandings.
    Like I stated yesterday, the only misunderstanding was because of your sense of humour failure.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    You said they were told to buy them a few posts back.
    Yes, not an an individual bases, the whole country was told to buy ffs.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    So they took a risk and it backfired well boo hoo for them, I still dont see how negative equity affects anyone that is not intending to sell their house.
    Like already explained, people who want or to extend and can't wait 10 years to do so.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    Can you explain it to me? I buy a house for 200k today and next year the price falls to 180k? How does this affect me if I have no intention of selling it?
    you could read above, or you know just use your brain.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    Here before you try deny you said it I have highlighted it for you.
    Anything for an argument Donal. Even when you know what people mean.


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    #8469
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    mconigol wrote: »
    Your assets are worth less!

    It's a very basic financial principle.

    But what difference does it make to me if I dont intend to sell it? Why cant you answer that? Obviously they are worth less 180 is less than 200 but if it is worth 1 then what difference does it make if I dont intend to sell it.

    I asked how negative equity affects someone in the case I used as an example and am still waiting for the answer


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    #8470
    IHateMondays
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭IHateMondays


    goz83 wrote: »
    +1 on that.

    Why should the home owner have to pay for something the tenant is using. Lets say the home owner lives and works abroad. They don't benefit from the amenities. And I can already predict the likes of alistair coming in to say that the property is more attractive with all the amenities. And I will say, "yes, it also benefits from having electricity and central heating, but the tenant pays those."

    UI just want to say that I am not a landlord, or a tenant, but a home owner.

    What's an LA tenant? I'm a tenant, why should I pay the Household tax for the landlord? I move house every 6 months to a year (due to my job) around the country. Am I going to pay Household tax for places I rent off Landlords? Hell no. Landlords get rent off me. Enough. I'd love to try and see if my landlord will try and make me pay it. If you own a house, pay the taxes, be them Household or whatever that come with them.


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    #8471
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    phil1nj wrote: »
    Honestly and I'm not being smart here but could you give some examples?

    The reason I ask is because I heard property tax being referred to as a great example of a wealth tax. Now if I picture wealth as being a huge pile of money under my mattress (simplest form) how can the government tax that? Surely they can't until I

    a) spend it (VAT etc)
    b) save it (DIRT) or
    c) invest it.

    And only the last option allows them to tax me on the profit made but not the actual investment sum, same with savings where teh principle is unaffected by taxes.

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but youwondered "how the government can justify taxing property when the inherent wealth or value of it can not be accessed until the property is sold".

    Motor taxes are applied year on year regardless of the value of the motor.


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    #8472
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    mconigol wrote: »
    Because you have an asset that is worth less therefore your balance sheet is negatively affected.

    Errr no...negative equity only occurs if you have a debt above the value of the house.


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    #8473
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    But what difference does it make to me if I dont intend to sell it? Why cant you answer that? Obviously they are worth less 180 is less than 200 but if it is worth 1 then what difference does it make if I dont intend to sell it.

    I asked how negative equity affects someone in the case I used as an example and am still waiting for the answer
    Well here's a basic one for you:

    - What's your current mortgage?
    - 200k.
    - Ok, you'll be taxed based on a value of 200k.
    - But my house is worth 180.
    - But the bank valued it at 200 when you got the mortgage, we'll accept their valuation.
    Anyone wrote: »
    Errr no...negative equity only occurs if you have a debt above the value of the house.

    And that's what we're discussing.... :confused:


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    #8474
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    You know what I meant. 25% of the population live in Dublin. Must you have everything spelled out to the last letter?


    Like I stated yesterday, the only misunderstanding was because of your sense of humour failure.


    Yes, not an an individual bases, the whole country was told to buy ffs.

    Like already explained, people who want or to extend and can't wait 10 years to do so.


    you could read above, or you know just use your brain.

    Absolute nonsens all of the above, good lord you said most of the population is in Dublin I dont think anything else you say after that statement matters, then you say its 25% of the population last time I checked 25% isnt a majority. Wow this just gets funnier by the post.

    People who want to extend but cant wait 10 years to do so, seriously. Are you actually trying to say if someone wants to extend but cant wait to save up enough to do it the banks should give them the money so they dont have to wait and they can get what they want. Is this really what you are saying.

    Fortunately I do use my brain, however saying most of the population lives in Dublin is a perfect example of someone not using their brain.


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    #8475
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    IHateMondays wrote: »
    What's an LA tenant? I'm a tenant, why should I pay the Household tax for the landlord? I move house every 6 months to a year (due to my job) around the country. Am I going to pay Household tax for places I rent off Landlords? Hell no. Landlords get rent off me. Enough. I'd love to try and see if my landlord will try and make me pay it. If you own a house, pay the taxes, be them Household or whatever that come with them.

    Local Authority Tenant


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    #8476
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Absolute nonsens all of the above, good lord you said most of the population is in Dublin I dont think anything else you say after that statement matters, then you say its 25% of the population last time I checked 25% isnt a majority. Wow this just gets funnier by the post.
    compared to the population of other counties.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    People who want to extend but cant wait 10 years to do so, seriously. Are you actually trying to say if someone wants to extend but cant wait to save up enough to do it the banks should give them the money so they dont have to wait and they can get what they want. Is this really what you are saying.
    I'm saying that people bought properties with the plan to extend to raise families etc. This was entirely possible to do a few years ago and a lot of people could afford another 100-200 on their mortgage to get it, but they can't.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    Fortunately I do use my brain, however saying most of the population lives in Dublin is a perfect example of someone not using their brain.
    Unfortunately, I don't believe this. It appears you need everything spelled out. You still ignore everyone's examples unless they're letter perfect, and even at that, you disregard them. :rolleyes:


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    #8477
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    Well here's a basic one for you:

    - What's your current mortgage?
    - 200k.
    - Ok, you'll be taxed based on a value of 200k.
    - But my house is worth 180.
    - But the bank valued it at 200 when you got the mortgage, we'll accept their valuation.



    And that's what we're discussing.... :confused:

    You do know the household charge isnt based on the value of your house dont you?

    Its €100 for everyone, you dont think that everyone here has a house valued the same do you?


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    #8478
    phil1nj
    Registered Users Posts: 716 ✭✭✭phil1nj


    black francis wrote: »
    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but youwondered "how the government can justify taxing property when the inherent wealth or value of it can not be accessed until the property is sold".

    Motor taxes are applied year on year regardless of the value of the motor.

    Motor tax is not a wealth tax, that is the point I was getting at. It is a tax that all motorists pay to legally use their own cars on the national roads. A property tax has long been argued as being a tax based on the wealth or value of the property (and it looks like this will be the basis for the tiered system that will be introduced). The current household charge (sorry tax, don't want to upset other posters here) is just a flat rate property tax for all homeowners.

    This then leads to the argument that the property tax will go toward local services in the area (fair enough, I'll believe it when I see it) but why then are tenants or those in council hosuses excluded from paying this tax? When they too use the same local amenities. So is the property tax a tax on the value of your home or is a tax for living in the area?

    If it is a tax on the value of your home then my original question still stands about the whys and wherefores of doing this. If it is a tax for local services, why are certain groups excluded (this would apply to more so to those in council houses becasue as you said landlords will most likley pass this on to their tenants in the form of increased rents).


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    #8479
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    compared to the population of other counties.


    I'm saying that people bought properties with the plan to extend to raise families etc. This was entirely possible to do a few years ago and a lot of people could afford another 100-200 on their mortgage to get it, but they can't.


    Unfortunately, I don't believe this. It appears you need everything spelled out. You still ignore everyone's examples unless they're letter perfect, and even at that, you disregard them. :rolleyes:

    You said that most of the population is in Dublin. Thats what you said thats all you said. How am I supposed to know what you actually meant when that is all you said.

    You just have to admit you made a mistake and were wrong.

    What examples are they then?

    They dont need to be letter perfect but you shouldnt rely on the psychic abilities of other users on here to interpret the actual meaning of your posts


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    #8480
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    mconigol wrote: »
    Careful not to fall down with all that spinning your doing.


    I see you've stopped arguing the point anyway, which I'll take as an admission that you've conceeded the argument - think before you post next time.


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    #8481
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    You do know the household charge isnt based on the value of your house dont you?

    Its €100 for everyone, you dont think that everyone here has a house valued the same do you?

    You do know that next year it will be and that's why a lot of people are not paying now don't you? :rolleyes:


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    #8482
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    You do know that next year it will be and that's why a lot of people are not paying now don't you? :rolleyes:

    The household charge will be replaced by the property tax in 2014 not next year, as for the amount next year this has not been reported yet so who knows what it will be, most likely still be a flat rate.

    As for the property tax when it is introduced they havent said how it will be calculated. I doubt it will be based on market value be it past or present more likely to be based on square footage or something like that maybe the location will play a part in it. If you know that next year the household charge will be based on the amount you paid for the property please provide a link and save the roll eyes for the right time like now. :rolleyes:


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    #8483
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,933 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Phill Ewinn wrote: »
    Scam artists posing as council workers??? What's the difference. You're being scamed either way!!!

    Exactly. I always laugh when I see the Securicor van with the Garda and Army outside banks on money delivery day. Especially when the same banks were being robbed from the inside by Seanie, Fingers and friends while the Govt appointed Regulator watched and kept quiet.


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    #8484
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    The household charge will be replaced by the property tax in 2014 not next year, as for the amount next year this has not been reported yet so who knows what it will be, most likely still be a flat rate.

    As for the property tax when it is introduced they havent said how it will be calculated. I doubt it will be based on market value be it past or present more likely to be based on square footage or something like that maybe the location will play a part in it. If you know that next year the household charge will be based on the amount you paid for the property please provide a link and save the roll eyes for the right time like now. :rolleyes:
    You asked for an example and I gave one. As you say, nothing is in stone so you never know how they'll calculate a valuation. And since others gave you factual examples which you dismissed I though maybe you'd like one which was way out there.


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    #8485
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    donalg1 wrote: »
    The household charge will be replaced by the property tax in 2014 not next year, as for the amount next year this has not been reported yet so who knows what it will be, most likely still be a flat rate.

    As for the property tax when it is introduced they havent said how it will be calculated. I doubt it will be based on market value be it past or present more likely to be based on square footage or something like that maybe the location will play a part in it. If you know that next year the household charge will be based on the amount you paid for the property please provide a link and save the roll eyes for the right time like now. :rolleyes:


    The Property Tax is very likely to be self assessed and therefore based on the value of the house. (The expert group that are looking into it have been given that in the terms of reference). (Going to be messy!)

    Amounts will very likely be higher for houses with higher value (not a flat rate). Link http://www.moneyguideireland.com/property-tax-how-much-will-it-be.html


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    #8486
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    You asked for an example and I gave one. As you say, nothing is in stone so you never know how they'll calculate a valuation. And since others gave you factual examples which you dismissed I though maybe you'd like one which was way out there.

    What example did you give again? Do you have a link for this or did you just make it up on the spot.

    I like the way you completely ignored everything in my post there was that because you have no answer for it


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    #8487
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ogham wrote: »
    The Property Tax is very likely to be self assessed and therefore based on the value of the house. (The expert group that are looking into it have been given that in the terms of reference). (Going to be messy!)

    Amounts will very likely be higher for houses with higher value (not a flat rate). Link http://www.moneyguideireland.com/property-tax-how-much-will-it-be.html

    Exactly but my post was asking him how he knows that the household charge will be based on the value of the property at the time of taking out a mortgage. I asked for a link to this but dont expect to get one from him.


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    #8488
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    What example did you give again? Do you have a link for this or did you just make it up on the spot.

    I like the way you completely ignored everything in my post there was that because you have no answer for it
    If you watch TV or listen to the radio or read the papers you will have seen/heard/read numerous accounts or TD's talking about a value based tax.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    Exactly but my post was asking him how he knows that the household charge will be based on the value of the property at the time of taking out a mortgage. I asked for a link to this but dont expect to get one from him.

    Seriously? You can fúcking read can't you? "And since others gave you factual examples which you dismissed I though maybe you'd like one which was way out there."

    I'm done with you, it's like talking to a wall or a child!


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    #8489
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    IHateMondays wrote: »
    What's an LA tenant? I'm a tenant, why should I pay the Household tax for the landlord? I move house every 6 months to a year (due to my job) around the country. Am I going to pay Household tax for places I rent off Landlords? Hell no. Landlords get rent off me. Enough. I'd love to try and see if my landlord will try and make me pay it. If you own a house, pay the taxes, be them Household or whatever that come with them.

    I assume your giving that advice to your landlord so. After all, your availing of the services this is supposed to pay for, so dont be telling others to pay, thinking you dont have to. Your the one living in it, not your landlord.

    What will you do if your landlord then does accept your kind advice to pay it, and passes it on? Move to another landlord? Problem solved you think.


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    #8490
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    If you watch TV or listen to the radio or read the papers you will have seen/heard/read numerous accounts or TD's talking about a value based tax.


    Seriously? You can fúcking read can't you? "And since others gave you factual examples which you dismissed I though maybe you'd like one which was way out there."

    I'm done with you, it's like talking to a wall or a child!

    I think the highlighted part refers to you more so than me.

    I have asked you directly to tell me what examples you have provided and you respond with the above, hardly answering my question is it? And you say I am the childish one. I have asked you countless direct questions and you are yet to answer them

    There is no need to get so wound up and angry over a few questions, you could just answer them.

    Most of what you say is untrue or based on absolutely nothing other than what you make up in your own head and when I say you are wrong and ask for you to provide me with a link backing up your claims you respond with the above nonsense.

    To me a child is someone not capable of having an adult conversation or someone not capable of backing up what they say or what they claim to be true


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    #8491
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I have asked you directly to tell me what examples you have provided and you respond with the above, hardly answering my question is it? And you say I am the childish one. I have asked you countless direct questions and you are yet to answer them

    I have answered every one of them Donal.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    To me a child is someone not capable of having an adult conversation or someone not capable of backing up what they say or what they claim to be true
    Or someone who will disregard everything that is said to them, twist stories, or need everything spelled out!


This discussion has been closed.
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