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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #8612
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    I have decided that I will be paying this charge, but not by the deadline as I do not wish to fully appease Deputy Hogan, who has made a mess of the operation.

    I am at this stage disillusioned by the likes of Ming Flanagan, Joe Higgins et al who have suddenly began squirming and giving roundabout answers when asked if they are directly urging people not to pay the charge.

    And I am also fed up listening to them saying its going to pay the bondholders. This country is screwed even if there was no bank bailout, and the only reason I will pay it is that the country may be a better place in 20 years time for my kids.

    It sounds corny, but I want to be able to say that I tried to play my part.
    And it helps that at the moment I can afford the 100e, in comparison to others who are in genuine hardship.

    It is, at this moment, neither a wealth tax nor a property tax, albeit that it is a precursor to the latter, and it is irrelevant whether the end service beneficiary is wealthy or not. Rich or poor, they are all service users.

    I have also heard today that there are some who are advocating non payment, who have already actually paid it, whether this is true or not, in certain company, one may be reluctant to even discuss this charge such is the level of emotion.

    One of the loosest and most insulting phrases of the Taoiseach, "Its only 2euros a week", was met by many including myself as a bit rich coming from someone paid the same as Barack O' Bama.

    This is not the way to get the people "on side", and for the relatively paltry sum of 160m which this is expected to raise, it is causing major divisions in this country.

    Had this charge been correctly termed and heralded as a permanent recurring services charge, and not as some sort of ill conceived quasi amenity charge (which will somehow seamlessly segue into a property tax), it would have given the no-campaigners less ammunition to play with, and a permanently wider tax base for the exchequer going forward.

    When a full blown property tax is brought in, if the rate determined for my property is a figure I will not be able to afford, which I suspect it will be, I will have to deal with that at that time.

    My decision may also be influenced by whether the promises given regarding the ring fencing of the money raised by the household charge come to fruition or not.


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    #8613
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    black francis wrote: »
    No, I hate the politicians and bankers for the part they played in this mess, however, I take a more pragmatic view than yourself. After careful consideration of the various options and scenarios open to us at the present, I've concluded that introducing property taxes as part of a strategy to balance the budget is the least worst option available.

    Best to take the emotion and justifiable anger out of the equation and simply weigh up the alternatives.
    If every single person paid this, and if next year the tax went to say €500 then it would still only be a very small % of the current deficit.....the only possible way we can cut this deficit is by massively cutting the social welfare budget and by cutting the public sector pay and massive pensions budget.....it is far better to cut your outgoings rather than increasing your income...this tax, should be a very low priority, it should be at the bottom of the possible revenue generating options years down the line, there is plenty of fat left to be cut from government spending....the IMF do not care how or what the government raise / cut to reduce the deficit, the governments claims that they / we have no choice is yet another example of the bullsh!t that we are constantly drip fed....in my opinion this tax has been judged by the gov. to be the easier option to raise money as opposed to cutting welfare or taking on the unions.....spineless!!!....and it will never change but at least we can say "NO" now and tell our useless politicians that we have had enough.....and about time too!!!!


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    #8614
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    A tax formulated to help bridge the deficit until we're not longer in the red. Not an ongoing, indefinite tax to punish people who have bought homes.

    That's all very aspirational, but specifically what?

    And just to be clear, there are additional measures we must make in addition to a property tax, but the point is, they're in 'addition to'as opposed to 'instead of'.


  • Options
    #8615
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    Going Forward wrote: »
    When a full blown property tax is brought in, if the rate determined for my property is a figure I will not be able to afford, which I suspect it will be, I will have to deal with that at that time.

    Stand up for yourself now then. FFS.


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    #8616
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Going Forward wrote: »
    I have decided that I will be paying this charge, but not by the deadline as I do not wish to fully appease Deputy Hogan, who has made a mess of the operation.

    I am at this stage disillusioned by the likes of Ming Flanagan, Joe Higgins et al who have suddenly began squirming and giving roundabout answers when asked if they are directly urging people not to pay the charge.

    And I am also fed up listening to them saying its going to pay the bondholders. This country is screwed even if there was no bank bailout, and the only reason I will pay it is that the country may be a better place in 20 years time for my kids.

    It sounds corny, but I want to be able to say that I tried to play my part.
    And it helps that at the moment I can afford the 100e, in comparison to others who are in genuine hardship.

    It is, at this moment, neither a wealth tax nor a property tax, albeit that it is a precursor to the latter, and it is irrelevant whether the end service beneficiary is wealthy or not. Rich or poor, they are all service users.

    I have also heard today that there are some who are advocating non payment, who have already actually paid it, whether this is true or not, in certain company, one may be reluctant to even discuss this charge such is the level of emotion.

    One of the loosest and most insulting phrases of the Taoiseach, "Its only 2euros a week", was met by many including myself as a bit rich coming from someone paid the same as Barack O' Bama.

    This is not the way to get the people "on side", and for the relatively paltry sum of 160m which this is expected to raise, it is causing major divisions in this country.

    Had this charge been correctly termed and heralded as a permanent recurring services charge, and not as some sort of ill conceived quasi amenity charge (which will somehow seamlessly segue into a property tax), it would have given the no-campaigners less ammunition to play with, and a permanently wider tax base for the exchequer going forward.

    When a full blown property tax is brought in, if the rate determined for my property is a figure I will not be able to afford, which I suspect it will be, I will have to deal with that at that time.

    My decision may also be influenced by whether the promises given regarding the ring fencing of the money raised by the household charge come to fruition or not.

    Great post


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    #8617
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Great post

    Id say you thought that by the 8th word in it.


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    #8618
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Had this charge been correctly termed and heralded as a permanent recurring services charge, and not as some sort of ill conceived quasi amenity charge (which will somehow seamlessly segue into a property tax), it would have given the no-campaigners less ammunition to play with, and a permanently wider tax base for the exchequer going forward.
    .

    100% agree, clumsy attemp to try to make the charge more palatable, which backfired spectacularly.

    Noticed, the 'message' has changed recently to a 'look we really need the money because we're fecked' vibe.

    Be honest with the electorate about the direness of our present situation. If people fully understood the chances of us imploding to levels of poverty presently (ironically) unimagined, they'd be far more willing to pull together and not waste time bickering.


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    #8619
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Id say you thought that by the 8th word in it.

    Very cynical.

    It was a great post.


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    #8620
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    black francis wrote: »
    That's all very aspirational, but specifically what?

    I've already said it. A temporary tax applied implicitly to reduce the deficit. I don't mind paying it as I'm aware of the situation we're in. Call it what you will. An permanent punitive tax on homeowners is not the answer.
    black francis wrote: »
    And just to be clear, there are additional measures we must make in addition to a property tax, but the point is, they're in 'addition to'as opposed to 'instead of'.

    Wrong. There are massive cuts in the public sector that need to be implemented. And cuts and tax increases to deal with the current situation. Not ongoing, permanent taxes which give our government an incentive to be as unaccountable as they have been to date. Make us pay now because we have no choice. Don't make us pay forever because we have a basket case system of governance.


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    #8621
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    smash wrote: »
    Personal abuse. Nice... Welcome to my ignore list.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    Fair enough I was done talking to him anyway complete waste of time


    Mod.

    Don't post in this thread again.


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    #8622
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    black francis wrote: »
    Very cynical.

    It was a great post.

    Its funny that, i actually thought it was a good one myself, but i still think the first 8 words would of been the major winner for the other fella. Nothing cynical about that.


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    #8623
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    I've already said it. A temporary tax applied implicitly to reduce the deficit. I don't mind paying it as I'm aware of the situation we're in. Call it what you will. An permanent punitive tax on homeowners is not the answer.

    Either you've a fundamental mis-understanding of the word 'specifically', or you're avoiding the question.


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    #8624
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Its funny that, i actually thought it was a good one myself, but i still think the first 8 words would of been the major winner for the other fella. Nothing cynical about that.

    yes, that was the cynical part I was referring to.


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    #8625
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    black francis wrote: »
    Either you've a fundamental mis-understanding of the word 'specifically', or you're avoiding the question.

    A tax 'specifically' implemented to adjust the deficit... and not masquerading as something else. You think a household charge and subsequent fluctuating property tax is an honest way of getting our country out of this debt crisis? Obviously you do.


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    #8626
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Has anyone here changed their minds and paid or will pay before Saturday?


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    #8627
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Politicians have begin quoting that Northern Ireland has Housing rates so why not us. They never mention that our road tax is much higher than theirs and they don't have to pay for bin collection or Medical care.

    The road tax on a 1.9 diesel standard family car is €600 or so. Thats more like a property tax.


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    #8628
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    A tax 'specifically' implemented to adjust the deficit... and not masquerading as something else. You think a household charge and subsequent fluctuating property tax is an honest way of getting our country out of this debt crisis? Obviously you do.

    strange word to use in this context.... What is as 'honest' tax?


    Specifically, if you could.


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    #8629
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    hondasam wrote: »
    Has anyone here changed their minds and paid or will pay before Saturday?

    Not yet anyway, have you yourself?


  • Options
    #8630
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    black francis wrote: »
    strange word to use in this context.... What is as 'honest' tax?

    Specifically, if you could.

    You're not really paying much attention to what I'm posting so I won't go into some retarded dance with you. The majority of people won't pay this charge and subsequent tax because it's being used to bail out unsecured bondholders/gamblers. Not fix pavements. Probably not 'specific' enough for you but hey, majority rules sweetheart.


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    #8631
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    smash wrote: »
    Personal abuse. Nice... Welcome to my ignore list.


    I think Phil Hogan is on..oh I dont know,say 1.2-1.3 million peoples ignore list at present.:D


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    #8632
    Pat40433
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Pat40433


    Not going to pay now - will see how this plays out over the next 48 months. My housing estate has still not been taken over by the local authority (even though its approx 10-12 years old), we as residents pay seperately to have the common areas grass cut, small repairs etc carried out. This is just one of a number of reasons why I have decided against paying. Its a major pity the local authority werent as efficent at enforcing building regs during the construction process as they are at requesting now impossible technical reports/tests prior to estate take-overs. Looking to discussions with council debt collectors. I'm sure there are hundreds of estates throughout the country that still havent been taken over by local authorities.


  • Options
    #8633
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Oh O spaghetti O's.
    New property tax is Ireland's poll tax



    A property tax in Ireland as a flat rate tax will be socially divisive, face boycotts, and echoes the riot-inducing UK poll tax

    The new household tax in Ireland is a recipe for disaster, reminiscent of the poll tax in Britain that prompted riots 21 years ago.



    This should be a sombre message for Hogan - the riots happened just as the tax was being introduced across England (it was introduced in Scotland earlier). And even though €100 is less than €2 a week, Ireland's flat tax could be a similar lightning rod for protests among those already squeezed by higher tax and lower pay.

    "It's a poll tax, for two reasons. One, Ireland has one of the highest home ownership rates in Europe at something like 80% and secondly it's a flat tax. Flat taxes were denounced as stupid 300 years ago. It's the most regressive form of tax you can have and in terms of taxation possible it's a very bad idea," says Limerick University economist Stephen Kinsella


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/jul/27/property-tax-ireland-poll-tax








  • Options
    #8634
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Fair enough I was done talking to him anyway complete waste of time


    Talking back to a mod,isnt the wizest thing to do sometimes.

    Sometimes,you just need to know when to stop and comply.


    Trust me,I know.:D


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    #8635
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Not yet anyway, have you yourself?

    No and I'm not going too.


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    #8636
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    hondasam wrote: »
    No and I'm not going too.

    Its an interesting question though, both sides will have had changes of mind nationwide.


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    #8637
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Its an interesting question though, both sides will have had changes of mind nationwide.

    Some people have changed their minds and I think a good few will pay before Saturday but still not enough.
    It will be interesting to see if they change the deadline. I'm still thinking they might rethink it completely.


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    #8638
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    hondasam wrote: »
    Some people have changed their minds and I think a good few will pay before Saturday but still not enough.
    It will be interesting to see if they change the deadline. I'm still thinking they might rethink it completely.

    Id be surprised of they change the deadline, but you`d never know what they might come up with next.


  • Options
    #8639
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,858 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    After tonights shambolic attempts on Primetime by Phil Hogan.......

    Does anyone actually believe a word that he is saying???







    Personally,I think he is talking more and more rubbish and also looking to hang someone else out to dry,in order to save his own bacon.

    His whole attitude has changed,even on tonights Primetime,he looked like and sounded like a man who knew/knows he was and is staring defeat in the face.

    Fair play to Richard Crowley for absolutely grilling him,making him squirm so much and forcing him to admit he doesnt know his figures.





    Oh and Phil,well done on blaming An Post,even though its been proved that An Post put a payment plan to you back in August 2011.

    I mean your own FG TDs and councilers have lost faith in you and dont believe anything you say or threaten people with now.



    So keep on telling yourself that its everyone elses fault bar yours,and you might just believe it.


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    #8640
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    black francis wrote: »
    The problem with the boom, was that the normal rules of the market collapsed under the sheer madness of house buying that went on.

    The normal rules of the market collapsed under the weight of reckless credit availability!
    black francis wrote: »
    A 40% compliance rate by the deadline would be looked on as a success - certainly enough of a critical mass to render any calls to abolish the tax moot.

    It's still a long way from 40% yet. With this "surge" they'll be lucky to reach the mid 30's%. And I think the numbers registering will probably wane again by saturday.

    The recriminations, and in fighting, have started already. It doesn't seem like it is being seen as a success by many.

    If they manage to f*ck up the fiscal stability referendum, with their contempt and condescension for the electorate, and get a 40% yes, would that be looked on as a success?


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    #8641
    BarackPyjama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭BarackPyjama


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X_Ot0k4XJc


This discussion has been closed.
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