Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dxhound2005

theTinker wrote: »

I dont pay the TV license at the moment as I disagree since I never ever use any channel input or look at any Tv programs. I youtube most news etc.
I use my TV for a computer monitor for watching movies.

I'd be much more inclined now to NOT pay the household charge if they are proposing that it could be attached to the property tax. It makes it alot harder to fight charges if they are all attached together, since some charges are reasonable. eg like water rates.

Tv license though? Its no different than my oven or my regular monitor so I will be boycotting the household charge for the year and seeing how it plays out. My boycotting is the only support i can give to stop it.

I dont agree with paying taxes on things i've purchased after the point of sale. I wouldnt buy most things if I expected a a forced charge after it without any standards or pre agreed.
I pay taxes for on going service usage or a contribution towards new constructed/provided services which would make things better.

Like I said it is a list of proposals and I just responded to the one highlighted by the other poster .

"Attached" in this context means that if you do not pay the charge all your arrears fines and interest will be still owing whenever the property is sold or bequeathed and will have to be paid before title can be transferred.

tmjb71

If you think it unfair why don't you voice your opinion? Protest, sign a petition, etc

The Irish mentality is a joke, grumble but sit back and do nothing. A bunch of old age pensioners have more fight in them!

Gareth2011

Carter P Fly wrote: »

that pretty weak from a lagal standpoint no?

If I didnt pay and ended up in front of a judge I could clearly say that I would have paid but was never oficially directed on how to pay or by when.
For all I or anyone else knows the property tax website is something some conartist slapped up. Im not really willing to pay on a random site without official say so.

Im sure the judge would know this was a cop out as every single person who lives in a property knows about this charge by now. If your paying by DD you have to have signed up to DD by the 1st of march. If you are paying it in 1 go you have untill the end of march. After that penalities start racking up against you.

The Quadratic Equation

Gareth2011 wrote: »

There is no difference in them at all. I meant FF was in power for so long that people took whatthey were given. Be it good or bad but in saying that FF were in power through the good times and even when they did make cuts during the recession they weren't cutting deep because there was wiggle room. Now that they are gone there is FG & Lab that have to make deep hard hitting cuts because there is feck all wiggle room left and people can't take it.

What you're trying to describe is a perfect example of the golden circle using a sham democracy to run a plutocracy. Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

Gareth2011 wrote: »

Granted people didn't have tio take on large mortgages but sure we all thought the good times would never end and FF saw it coming but kept their mouths shut because they had wiggle room.

Wrong, many of us always called it for what it was a property pyramid scam. I've been pointing out how corrupt the civil war parties are since CJH. All the 'war of so called independence' achieved was to swap corrupt wealthy oppressors with English accents for corrupt wealthy oppressors with Irish ones, using the old scam of mock nationalistic patriotism.

The Quadratic Equation

There seems to be a lot of shills from Upper Mount Street posting here in case the natives work out the scam.

Bishop_Donal

theTinker wrote: »

I dont pay the TV license at the moment as I disagree since I never ever use any channel input or look at any Tv programs. I youtube most news etc.
I use my TV for a computer monitor for watching movies.

I'd be much more inclined now to NOT pay the household charge if they are proposing that it could be attached to the property tax. It makes it alot harder to fight charges if they are all attached together, since some charges are reasonable. eg like water rates.

Tv license though? Its no different than my oven or my regular monitor so I will be boycotting the household charge for the year and seeing how it plays out. My boycotting is the only support i can give to stop it.

I dont agree with paying taxes on things i've purchased after the point of sale. I wouldnt buy most things if I expected a a forced charge after it without any standards or pre agreed.
I pay taxes for on going service usage or a contribution towards new constructed/provided services which would make things better.

May I ask you a simple question?

How do you think the gap between public expenditure v's revenue should be closed. Take it at c. Eur15bn (which is low) and give me a sense of the broad approach you would take (and what new taxes / expenditure cuts you would support).

In fact I throw that question over to all the people who are stating they will refuse to pay this minimal charge.

Let's actually hear something constructive for once instead of the constant whinging and moaning about a Mickey Mouse charge that will address about 1% of the problem.

Or do the freeloaders have any proposals at all?

mickydoomsux

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Wrong, many of us always called it for what it was a property pyramid scam. I've been pointing out how corrupt the civil war parties are since CJH. All the 'war of so called independence' achieved was to swap corrupt wealthy oppressors with English accents for corrupt wealthy oppressors with Irish ones, using the old scam of mock nationalistic patriotism.

You've been complaining that long? So what country do you live in now?

I presume you'd leave a country if you had that much of a problem with it for that long.

ilovesleep

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of shills from Upper Mount Street posting here in case the natives work out the scam.

This is it.

A fool and his money is easily parted. There are far too much fools posting.

A blind man can see that that expeniture is out of control and there is far too much wastage.

There are many people working in the private sector and their wages have dropped while many in the public sector especially the tope earners have over inflated wages and are protected by the croke park agreement.

What's happening is a huge transfer of wealth from the lower working class to the higher.

CPA has to be scrapped and expeniture dug into before they start hitting the nation with extra taxes and charges. It done all arseways. Hit everybody then be forced to cut into expeniture. It's a slow death.

Bishop_Donal

Some basic ballpark figures to help with assessment:

Total Projected Tax Revenue (2011) = Eur34.0bn

Current Expenditure projections for 2011:
- Social Welfare = Eur20.6bn
- Health = Eur14.3bn
- Education = Eur8.5bn
- Other = Eur 9.4bn (includes interest servicing of c. Eur5bn)

Total current expenditure over revenue = Eur18.8bn

Please note that these figures are ballpark (actual outcome for 2011 remains to be seen).

Now let us hear the people who ain't willing to pay a Eur100 charge advise us how to sort the problem. Be specific.

Carter P Fly

Gareth2011 wrote: »

Im sure the judge would know this was a cop out as every single person who lives in a property knows about this charge by now. If your paying by DD you have to have signed up to DD by the 1st of march. If you are paying it in 1 go you have untill the end of march. After that penalities start racking up against you.

I have never heard of this direct debit by the 1st of march thing, this post is the first I ever hear about it. Absolutly no kidding.

A classic interweb 'everybody' which means 'you' and a presumption that because you know the details 'everybody' knows the details.

Pete M.

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

May I ask you a simple question?

:rolleyes:

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

How do you think the gap between public expenditure v's revenue should be closed. Take it at c. Eur15bn (which is low) and give me a sense of the broad approach you would take (and what new taxes / expenditure cuts you would support).

Wealth tax, higher income tax generally, proper audit and fundamental re-organisation of public services, including a striped down political system, coupled with, hey hold on a minute, that's not a simple question :eek:
There are lots of different approaches that could be taken.

This current scrambling to deal with a crisis of immense proportions is not the only way.

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

In fact I throw that question over to all the people who are stating they will refuse to pay this minimal charge.

I throw it back in your general direction, because this tax and all the other austerity measures thus far only seem to have made the situation more volatile anyway.

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Let's actually hear something constructive for once instead of the constant whinging and moaning about a Mickey Mouse charge that will address about 1% of the problem.

So it's a mickey mouse charge now is it? More reason not to pay it then.
(and is it somewhat amusing that you could tease an analogy out of this by saying that yes, the payment and collection of this tax would go towards solving a problem for the 1%? By that reasoning, your way of dealing with the crisis would go around 0.000000001% of the problem)

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Or do the freeloaders have any proposals at all?

And now people who refuse to pay are freeloaders?! I take exception sir! I have paid my way and will always pay my way, so you can fcuk right off with that comment:mad:

I would also gladly pay for those less fortunate than myself, if I had the means, but refuse to pay to save a clique of over fed social parasites from bankruptcy.

It's not the payment of €100 but the idea that this may become a rallying campaign for those of us who think it is appropriate to protest and argue against a system that has the most of us all tied up in knots, breaking our holes to pay the bank at the end of the month.

Cool Mo D

Pete M. wrote: »

:rolleyes:



..Wealth tax...

The household charge IS a wealth tax, obviously.

Ghandee

Bishop Donal is so keen for the rest of us to pay it, because as a landlord, with more than one property, he was part of the problem.

A failed property developer/speculator.

Wants us to pay for his mistakes.


The sooner we stump up, the sooner his properties rise in value again.


Am I close on this one Donal?

Shenshen

Carter P Fly wrote: »

I have never heard of this direct debit by the 1st of march thing, this post is the first I ever hear about it. Absolutly no kidding.

A classic interweb 'everybody' which means 'you' and a presumption that because you know the details 'everybody' knows the details.

RTE has some clear and simple instructions, they broadcast it on radio and TV as well.


I have to say though that that page is a bit of a pain to sign up for, it timed out on me a number of times before I could set up that Direct Debit

Gareth2011

Shenshen wrote: »

RTE has some clear and simple instructions, they broadcast it on radio and TV as well.


I have to say though that that page is a bit of a pain to sign up for, it timed out on me a number of times before I could set up that Direct Debit

It baffles me that some people couldn't know about this. Hell its only been the centre of attention since it was announced weeks ago. Granted its a bit of a pain alright but doesn't take that long and once its done its done. will be interesting to see what the gap is on the above poll in few weeks if it stays going for that long.

K-9

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of shills from Upper Mount Street posting here in case the natives work out the scam.

:rolleyes:

Maybe some think extra taxes are a good thing. We should have had taxes like this all along, the need for cuts and tax hikes wouldn't be as bad.

Bishop_Donal

Ghandee wrote: »

Bishop Donal is so keen for the rest of us to pay it, because as a landlord, with more than one property, he was part of the problem.

A failed property developer/speculator.

Wants us to pay for his mistakes.


The sooner we stump up, the sooner his properties rise in value again.


Am I close on this one Donal?

I have one investment property which is in negative equity. I am paying, and intend to continue to pay the loan associated with it. Perhaps that meets your definition of a failed property developer!!

I have no other debt, so on balance I'm not in as much difficulty as some others in this country.

I don't believe that property prices will rise in this country for another 5 to 10 years (so whether you pay your household charge or not is unlikely to influence my direct position).

What motivates me to see our country in balance, is a firm belief that we will simply not have access to finance to maintain the current excess if 1.) we don't get to grips with things fast &/or 2.) if we walk away from debt.

The consequences of a lack of finance are stark. You saw the figures I posted earlier. It either comes from SW / Health or education. Personally I don't want to see people suffering from real hardship in Ireland, but as long as those who can afford to take an adjustment to living standards refuse to do so, the chances continue to increase.

Remember that if we end up in a situation where people are starving on our streets, and you are stepping over them.

dxhound2005

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of shills from Upper Mount Street posting here in case the natives work out the scam.

A lot of people who thought they could get away with not paying taxes are now turning up on the Revenue Commissioners quarterly defaulters lists. And as often as not the penalties they are paying are more than the original amount due.

As the pensioners are finding out Revenue are in a mood to go after everything now so homeowners not paying should know the consequences.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:33PFHzONPLQJ:www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/defaulters-list2-dec2011.xls+revenue+commissioners+quarterly+defaulters&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

juan.kerr

I wish they'd cancel this just to shut people up. It's all over the place - here, radio, newspapers, news websites etc.

I had the 4FM evening talk show on the other night for 15 mins when they were discussing it, the callers were a joke.

Flex

Ghandee wrote: »

Bishop Donal is so keen for the rest of us to pay it, because as a landlord, with more than one property, he was part of the problem.

A failed property developer/speculator.

Wants us to pay for his mistakes.


The sooner we stump up, the sooner his properties rise in value again.


Am I close on this one Donal?

A property tax will likey cause prices to drop as when people are taking into account how much a mortgage will cost them each month, theyll also take into account how much property tax theyll pay on top of that too.

Pete M.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The household charge IS a wealth tax, obviously.

Obviously?
Bishop, will you explain why this is an incorrect assumption please?
You seem to be well up on the auld economics like :pac:

Pete M.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I took a look at that website. Two of the names contributing appear to be linked with the Socialist Workers Party (and there could be others). By defintion everybody liable for the charge is the owner of a private property. Not the sort of people generally who would lean towards revolutionary socialism.

Baby steps

Bishop_Donal

Pete M. wrote: »

Obviously?
Bishop, will you explain why this is an incorrect assumption please?
You seem to be well up on the auld economics like :pac:

I don't regard it as too much of an incorrect assumption. I think you are being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic.

This steers the conversation away from the real issue, which is how the country achieves a balance in our collective income and expenditure position. This is a particular concern when you have people pretending they have certain principles to try to avoid paying a miserly Eur100.

A property tax (as opposed to the proposed household charge) is a subset of a wealth tax in my view. The household charge does not take account of the presence of debt.

Notwithstanding my previous comments I'll have a layman attempt at defining a wealth tax.

Typically, a wealth tax takes into account all asset classes (PDH / RIP's / Commercial property Inv, in addition to cash and cash convertibles, deposits, money investments, shares and stock investments in both listed and unlisted entities / pension values (based on imputed values), insurance investments etc etc etc). It is charged as a levy on the aggregate value of these investments net of attaching debt on a periodic basis (typically annually). It normally applies above a specific threshold.

The French have a good model in operation (as do the Dutch).

I am in favour of the introduction of this type of tax in the country as I believe it could make a material contribution to the rectification of our problems (maybe up to 25%) without negatively impacting the labour market and/or low income groups.

ilovesleep

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I am in favour of the introduction of this type of tax in the country as I believe it could make a material contribution to the rectification of our problems (maybe up to 25%) without negatively impacting the labour market and/or low income groups.

Wake up call!

It is this tax and other new taxes and charges that is going to impact the very group that you mentioned - low incomes therefore impacting on the labour market.

Peoples incomes are falling due to unemployment or reduced working hours. These extras charges are going to put a strain on their incomes with most if not all going out again on bills. This will result in people having less and less money to spend in their local economy resulting in more job losses and higher unemployment.

Bishop_Donal

ilovesleep wrote: »

Wake up call!

It is this tax and other new taxes and charges that is going to impact the very group that you mentioned - low incomes therefore impacting on the labour market.

Peoples incomes are falling due to unemployment or reduced working hours. These extras charges are going to put a strain on their incomes with most if not all going out again on bills. This will result in people having less and less money to spend in their local economy resulting in more job losses and higher unemployment.

Just flat wrong.

You tell me how a tax of 1% on wealth (net of debt) over a limit of say Eur250k or Eur500k directly hits a low income person? The only risk is a flight of wealthy entrepreneurs (which would be a disaster, hence the levels need to be low).

Equally, I am still awaiting suggestions of real alternatives. Not spoof. It's all fine and dandy to say we need to eliminate waste (and all logical people support that), but if you can't say exactly where that waste is, it won't feed the people depending on welfare or pensions.

K-9

ilovesleep wrote: »

Wake up call!

It is this tax and other new taxes and charges that is going to impact the very group that you mentioned - low incomes therefore impacting on the labour market.

Peoples incomes are falling due to unemployment or reduced working hours. These extras charges are going to put a strain on their incomes with most if not all going out again on bills. This will result in people having less and less money to spend in their local economy resulting in more job losses and higher unemployment.

It's the predicament we are in, raising taxes and cuts to services lead to the same thing. While everybody blames the banks the underlying reason for the mess is low taxes and high spending. All the parties engaged in auction politics on reducing taxes, the reasoning being reducing taxes worked in the late 80's and 90's, let's keep cutting taxes because its good for the economy.

Trying to find a party in 2007 with a sustainable tax policy was impossible. Tbh we'd gone past the point of no return at that stage.

cadaliac

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Just flat wrong.

.......

Equally, I am still awaiting suggestions of real alternatives. Not spoof. It's all fine and dandy to say we need to eliminate waste (and all logical people support that), but if you can't say exactly where that waste is, it won't feed the people depending on welfare or pensions.

Well, I can't suggest a fix for the situation that the country is in now, but one of the first places the gov needs to cut spending is in the public sector (yawn yawn I hear you say) but look where most money is being wasted and try to stem the tide.
I know for a fact that if the whole thought of "well I'm in the PS so I cannot be fired" has to be changed.
Yes you can be fired and if you are out sick for more than 12 months, you are not capable of performing your duties in this role. Sacked.
I know a manager who works with 50% of his allocated staff in a Hospital because the other 50% are "out on the sick".
There are plenty more examples - I'm sure we all know people in the PS (somewhere) who take advantage. It is their right to do so might I add, but it needs to be changed.
The shower in the last gov who got us here and the shower in gov now don't have the balls to make the right decisions. They are, after all, in the Public Service, so why shoot themselves in the foot.

The Quadratic Equation

mickydoomsux wrote: »

You've been complaining that long? So what country do you live in now?

I presume you'd leave a country if you had that much of a problem with it for that long.

Yes I'm sure it suits cronie politics to try and portray the fight for justice and equity as 'complaining', but do you know what, I'd love to leave this corrupt little backwater to fester with the now septic corruption, just as soon as SCAMA bails ordinary householders and taxpayers out, the wealthy leeches and parasites can have it all to themselves along with their serville lackies and arselickers.

Any country where it's what you know, rather than who you know, and a country that does not use ordinary taxpayers money to fund a plutocracy for secret bondholders, and the private gambling and speculation debts of fat billionaires.

dxhound2005

cadaliac wrote: »

Well, I can't suggest a fix for the situation that the country is in now, but one of the first places the gov needs to cut spending is in the public sector (yawn yawn I hear you say) but look where most money is being wasted and try to stem the tide.
I know for a fact that if the whole thought of "well I'm in the PS so I cannot be fired" has to be changed.
Yes you can be fired and if you are out sick for more than 12 months, you are not capable of performing your duties in this role. Sacked.
I know a manager who works with 50% of his allocated staff in a Hospital because the other 50% are "out on the sick".
There are plenty more examples - I'm sure we all know people in the PS (somewhere) who take advantage. It is their right to do so might I add, but it needs to be changed.
The shower in the last gov who got us here and the shower in gov now don't have the balls to make the right decisions. They are, after all, in the Public Service, so why shoot themselves in the foot.

There has been a reduction in numbers employed in the public service and it is ongoing. If you can believe these figures by 2015 wage costs will be down by 20% compared to 2008. The pension levy is taking one billion out of PS workers pockets already.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1205/budget3-business.html

If there are 300,000 public servants it is not as if they are a completely separate part of the community. Some of their families and relations must be part of the private sector?

LighterGuy

Isnt everyone going to effected by the household charge?

Even if you are renting wont landlords just pass it on? (higher rent)