Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

K-9

Noreen1 wrote: »

It is unreasonable to re-tax the same thing, over and over, ad-infinitum.
Since we are all aware that we will actually see severely reduced services in the coming years, then the Government stance that this is a Household charge for (often non-existent) services is completely hypocritical.
Dressing it up as "fair" or "equitable" is only adding insult to injury.

This is like arguing tax with a libertarian! As black francis said, when do the campaigns against motor tax, VRT, VAT, DIRT etc. all start? Ron Paul is running in the wrong country!

If you have to pay to maintain water infrastructure, so be it?

Don't know why you are still going on about this. I agree group water schemes shouldn't have to pay, it seems the Govt. do to.

But we have already paid to maintain water infrastructure - and it hasn't been maintained. I don't believe it will be maintained if we pay it again, either.

Group schemes or ordinary taxation. If it's taxation the country clearly isn't paying enough tax, taxes don't even cover Welfare and PS pay, never mind basic services.

I recognise that there will always be waste - I have not ceded that waste is acceptable, and that we should ignore it.
Therefore, my point still stands.

Never said waste was acceptable either. At least you don't have some unachievable ideal target, just a vague one.

Northern Ireland is not comparable, for obvious reasons.

Why not?

An unaffordable property tax will certainly have the ability to seriously affect peoples ability to own their own home.
It may well prove to be the straw that pushes many people who are already struggling to pay their mortgage, over the edge, and trigger mortgage default.

Given the size of mortgages in this country I doubt it.

Seriously, do you live in some imaginary Utopia, where people have limitless disposable income?

Nice histrionics.

You must have noticed the serious lack of "confidence" (read lack of money, instead) in the runup to Christmas, or at least heard about it on the News.

More histrionics. I've noticed it for the last 3/4 years!

Precisely why people fear this tax.

It's exactly why people don't like any tax!

The same well founded historical reasons for attachment to the "ould plot" are as valid today as they were years ago. The Landlords have changed, that's all!:D

Well "property always goes up" and "you can't go wrong with property" has gone anyway.

Fascination with property is not what cost people a fortune. Greed, poor Governance, Golden circles, and lack of regulation are what permitted the ridiculous bubble to expand unabated. Prior to the bubble, people still aspired to the security of Home ownership - but without the ridiculous price tag.
Hence, your theory is not valid.

I said Irish people have a fascination with the ould plot for years. Prior to the bubble is irrelevant as obviously my point includes prior to the bubble. It's my whole point, after a catastrophic crash people still have this emotional attachment.

Revenues have to be raised, yes.
Raising them from those who can no longer pay is actually counter-productive even for the elite, long term.
After all, when the majority of the population can no longer pay for goods and services, then where do the elite expect to sell these goods and services?

People said they couldn't pay the USC, the pension levy etc. Its what people do when taxes are raised.

This financial crisis is creating a race to the bottom. Impoverishing people will cause more harm to the Economy, at a time when we can least afford it.
When even the IMF are advising better terms for Ireland, and Goodbody's are predicting that Ireland will not meet its 3% target, don't you think it's time to change the recipe, before we are all burned beyond repair?

Cancel the IMF/EU loans tomorrow, the deficit issue still remains. There is no easy way out of it, nothing that doesn't involve pain for ordinary. When welfare costs €26/27 Billion and tax revenue is €33/34 Billion, I don't know what people hope for, much as I hope it would enough no pain.

colly10

Shenshen wrote: »

It's €100, that's around €8.33 a month.

I'm finding it absolutely baffling how people can get worked up over this, yet will happily spend as much on a single drink on a night out....

Get a grip. Seriously.

People are earning less but being taxed more. Services such as public transport, gas and electricity are increasing. NCT is another example.
Fuel and Vat have gone up and they're talking about increasing the price of drink.
There comes a point where you have to realise that were being bled dry, you accept this and they will increase it and it will be yet another tax that will become standard.

I know people will pay it though

Doc Ruby

Shocking the lack of basic economic understand or indeed understanidng of government finances in this thread.

K-9 wrote: »

Cancel the IMF/EU loans tomorrow, the deficit issue still remains. There is no easy way out of it, nothing that doesn't involve pain for ordinary. When welfare costs €26/27 Billion and tax revenue is €33/34 Billion, I don't know what people hope for, much as I hope it would enough no pain.

That number is EXCHEQUER RETURNS ONLY. It doesn't come near the full amount of tax collected. As for welfare, there's a whole lot more in that figure than payments to dole recipients, that also includes medical cards, rent relief, free legal aid, child benefit, lots of stuff.

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Health, Education and Welfare all need to take a big hit.

Civil service administration, general administration, and quangos could all be hit long before you need to target front line services. That means taking on the unions. If you can do that you can balance the books without a loss of services. If we were at 2004/2005 levels of expenditure we'd be close to breaking even on our current tax take, and I don't recall any particlar improvements in many services since then.

Here's a very simple concept I want the tax 'em all apologists in the thread to wrap their heads around - DIMINISHING RETURNS.

Past a certain point, hiking up taxes won't produce more money, it will produce less money, since its suppressing economic activity. As the desperate flailing by the IBEC sponsored government has thus far only managed to increase the deficit, I'd say its reasonable to imagine we're already past that point.

Hiking up taxes much further = less tax taken.

Frank Black

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Shocking the lack of basic economic understand or indeed understanidng of government finances in this thread.


If we were at 2004/2005 levels of expenditure we'd be close to breaking even on our current tax take, and I don't recall any particlar improvements in many services since then.

Have you taken inflation into account between 2004 and 2011 or is that not part of a basic economic understanding?

gigino

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Civil service administration, general administration, and quangos could all be hit long before you need to target front line services. That means taking on the unions. If you can do that you can balance the books without a loss of services. If we were at 2004/2005 levels of expenditure we'd be close to breaking even on our current tax take, and I don't recall any particlar improvements in many services since then.

+1. I don't recall any particlar improvements in many services since then either, despite the extra billions we are paying to the government for such services. With many things cheaper now than in 04 / 05 ( housing, property, house repairs, services, drink, clothing etc ) there is no reason for these extra billions of government expenditure to be squandered on pay and pensions.

Doc Ruby

black francis wrote: »

Have you taken inflation into account between 2004 and 2011 or is that not part of a basic economic understanding?

Oh that takes everything into account, especially the almost three years of deflation in that period.

Frank Black

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh that takes everything into account, especially the almost three years of deflation in that period.

No it doesn't, Ireland was in a peroid of deflation between jan 09 an jul 10. That's 18months.
Fraud it doesn't cancel out the inflation from the remainder of the period.

You're right about one thing though, the lack of basic economic knowledge on this thread is shocking all right :rolleyes:

dxhound2005

Buford Tannen wrote: »

So does sorting our own mess out include cutting spending in our PS?

They are working on it.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1205/budget3-business.html

Doc Ruby

black francis wrote: »

No it doesn't, Ireland was in a peroid of deflation between jan 09 an jul 10. That's 18months.
Fraud it doesn't cancel out the inflation from the remainder of the period.

I didn't say it cancelled it out, don't put words in my mouth. But the difference is irrelevant in the face of the scale of the deficit. The bottom line is government spending raced ahead of inflation year on year, so reductions behind inflation would only be a balancing of the books.

black francis wrote: »

You're right about one thing though, the lack of basic economic knowledge on this thread is shocking all right :rolleyes:

It sure is. So do share with the group from your own extensive experience, have we passed the point of diminishing returns or not?

Frank Black

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I didn't say it cancelled it out, don't put words in my mouth. But the difference is irrelevant in the face of the scale of the deficit. The bottom line is government spending raced ahead of inflation year on year, so reductions behind inflation would only be a balancing of the books.


It sure is. So do share with the group from your own extensive experience, have we passed the point of diminishing returns or not?

Not putting words in your mouth, but you said 'it takes everything into account', a point you seemed to have rowed back on.

Regarding dimishing returns, I'd agree that further increasing income taxes and VAT etc will not solve our problems and further agree that central government waste needs to be tackled, but to use this as an argument for not trying to broaden the tax base is barking up the wrong tree.

And if you make smarmy comments about 'lack of basic economic understanding', it's probably best you don't follow them up with similar sentiments.

Doc Ruby

black francis wrote: »

Not putting words in your mouth, but you said 'it takes everything into account', a point you seemed to have rowed back on.

Not in the slightest, when spending runs so far ahead of inflation there's no point in figuring inflation as it's largely incidental.

black francis wrote: »

Regarding dimishing returns, I'd agree that further increasing income taxes and VAT etc will not solve our problems and further agree that central government waste needs to be tackled, but to use this as an argument for not trying to broaden the tax base is barking up the wrong tree.

So further tax increases will not solve our problems but levying more taxes will help.

Have you a newsletter I could subscribe to?

The broader economy isn't a buffet where you can pick and choose without any consideration for the rest, its a massively interlinked system. Taxes are very much taxes, and "broadening the base" at this point hits consumer spending which hits businesses which costs jobs which reduces tax returns and increases costs.

black francis wrote: »

And if you make smarmy comments about 'lack of basic economic understanding', it's probably best you don't follow them up with similar sentiments.

One man's smarm is another man's indication that some very vocal lemmings were about to leap bodily off the edge, I guess.

tayto lover

gigino wrote: »

+1. I don't recall any particlar improvements in many services since then either, despite the extra billions we are paying to the government for such services. With many things cheaper now than in 04 / 05 ( housing, property, house repairs, services, drink, clothing etc ) there is no reason for these extra billions of government expenditure to be squandered on pay and pensions.

Many people bought their homes in the boom. What about them?

K-9

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Shocking the lack of basic economic understand or indeed understanidng of government finances in this thread.


That number is EXCHEQUER RETURNS ONLY. It doesn't come near the full amount of tax collected. As for welfare, there's a whole lot more in that figure than payments to dole recipients, that also includes medical cards, rent relief, free legal aid, child benefit, lots of stuff.

Yeah, you've a few extra Billion elsewhere that gets ate up. The Dept. of Health revenues will be decimated this year because the levies were abolished and the USC is now a tax, so tax revenues aren't up €2 Billion at all. Don't be so presumptious.

Civil service administration, general administration, and quangos could all be hit long before you need to target front line services. That means taking on the unions. If you can do that you can balance the books without a loss of services. If we were at 2004/2005 levels of expenditure we'd be close to breaking even on our current tax take, and I don't recall any particlar improvements in many services since then.

Here's a very simple concept I want the tax 'em all apologists in the thread to wrap their heads around - DIMINISHING RETURNS.

Past a certain point, hiking up taxes won't produce more money, it will produce less money, since its suppressing economic activity. As the desperate flailing by the IBEC sponsored government has thus far only managed to increase the deficit, I'd say its reasonable to imagine we're already past that point.

Hiking up taxes much further = less tax taken.

Cuts are the same, diminishing returns. The left and right wingers can't see past their own bias. Right wingers think you can cut say 20,000 administrators costing a Billion and think it'll save a Billion! Left and Righters pointing at each other saying your wrong, no your wrong. They're both right, you're both wrong! It's like Christians arguing which branch is right! Hilarious.

Doc Ruby

K-9 wrote: »

Cuts are the same, diminishing returns. The left and right wingers can't see past their own bias. Right wingers think you can cut say 20,000 administrators costing a Billion and think it'll save a Billion! Left and Righters pointing at each other saying your wrong, no your wrong. They're both right, you're both wrong! It's like Christians arguing which branch is right! Hilarious.

I am not going to explain myself to you for the third time in the thread, since you clearly didn't understand it the first two times.

K-9

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I am not going to explain myself to you for the third time in the thread, since you clearly didn't understand it the first two times.

Nah I get your point. It's a bit like a left winger saying lets bring in a wealth tax. It'll only go so far. Same with a right winger. Their solutions only get so far. Both brain washed as each other, just can't comprehend their limitations, both self righteous cults.

Doc Ruby

K-9 wrote: »

Nah I get your point.

No, you don't, you didn't and probably won't, but lets give it one final try.

K-9

Doc Ruby wrote: »

No, you don't, you didn't and probably won't, but lets give it one final try.

Oh I do get it. I can see things from many sides and can see the pitfalls of both the brain washed left and right wingers. You don't think you're brain washed.

The deficit is so huge that it will take both tax cuts and spending cuts, we've no choice to pick a left wing or right wing option, long gone. You have to take a long term approach which I think property and water rates are.

I'd agree with you on VAT and I've argued the same.

Doc Ruby

K-9 wrote: »

Oh I do get it. I can see things from many sides and can see the pitfalls of both the brain washed left and right wingers. You don't think you're brain washed.

All that proves is you didn't read what I linked to, or if you did you surely didn't understand it. Its a bit mad really.

Not all government spending is going into the economy. So lets say we identify €5 billion of cuts that won't hurt the economy too much. Then we identify €5 billion of cuts that will. So we cut €10 billion, and reduce taxes by €5 billion.

The economy is thus breaking even while government income is €5 billion up.

If more significant cuts aren't made all thats being done is the damage is being deferred up the road where more damage will be done with interest. The government is betting that the economy will recover before that happens.

But how can it recover when its being hamstrung by new taxes, charges and levies, all being poured into the bottomless maw of government spending?

I'll tell you what, go ahead and pay the property tax, and when the economy is worse off in one year than it is today, you can come back and tell me I was right.

Doc Ruby

There's an old traders saying that applies perfectly to the Irish government strategy:

"The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

K-9

Doc Ruby wrote: »

All that proves is you didn't read what I linked to, or if you did you surely didn't understand it. Its a bit mad really.

Not all government spending is going into the economy. So lets say we identify €5 billion of cuts that won't hurt the economy too much. Then we identify €5 billion of cuts that will. So we cut €10 billion, and reduce taxes by €5 billion.

The economy is thus breaking even while government income is €5 billion up.

If more significant cuts aren't made all thats being done is the damage is being deferred up the road where more damage will be done with interest. The government is betting that the economy will recover before that happens.

But how can it recover when its being hamstrung by new taxes, charges and levies, all being poured into the bottomless maw of government spending?

I'll tell you what, go ahead and pay the property tax, and when the economy is worse off in one year than it is today, you can come back and tell me I was right.

That's the cut taxes and they will spend line, they will invest, cutting taxes will create jobs. That worked in the late 80's, sure I'm a great fan of Mac the Knife, our greatest ever politician who never was Taoiseach. This isn't the late 80's, not even close. You could give everybody a €1,000 tax rebate in the morning and it isn't going to mean much. The US is trying the tax cut approach for the middle classes and it isn't working. Confidence in the future is about more than left or right wing politics. The problem is soooo big, left and righters can't grasp it, beyond their comprehension.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

There's an old traders saying that applies perfectly to the Irish government strategy:

"The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

Seeing as we aren't reliant on markets! We are reliant on the IMF/EU coming up with some solution to debt. It's the confidence thing again, often an irrational thing! Markets aren't convinced by left wing, raise tax policies, they also aren't convinced by right wing austerity budgets! Left wing and right wing politics will eventually become redundant, markets are already seeing for all the protests both are irrelevant, they're just arguing about directions to a cul de sac.

Doc Ruby

K-9 wrote: »

That's the cut taxes and they will spend line, they will invest, cutting taxes will create jobs.

No, dedicated enterprise support will create jobs. Targeted tax reliefs for certain industries will create jobs. Giving better educational opportunities to the unemployed than plastering 101 will create jobs. Letting the self employed claim welfare if it doesn't work out will create jobs. Making business bankruptcy less punitive than other bankruptcies will create jobs.

What I'm suggesting will provide relief for the economy and for the tax coffers. Its not enough by itself.

K-9 wrote: »

Confidence in the future is about more than left or right wing politics. The problem is soooo big, left and righters can't grasp it, beyond their comprehension.

Why do you keep talking about left and right wing politics?

K-9 wrote: »

Seeing as we aren't reliant on markets!

How long do you think that's going to last?

"The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

K-9

Doc Ruby wrote: »

No, dedicated enterprise support will create jobs. Targeted tax reliefs for certain industries will create jobs. Giving better educational opportunities to the unemployed than plastering 101 will create jobs. Letting the self employed claim welfare if it doesn't work out will create jobs. Making business bankruptcy less punitive than other bankruptcies will create jobs.

I'd agree with those things. Tax reliefs are seen as bad, they aren't. Tax reliefs tend to go on too long. Urban renewal was a great thing, it just took on a life of its own, eventually we got rural renewal schemes! I'd have more faith in giving good tax breaks to say sustainable green energy schemes than Government interfering.

What I'm suggesting will provide relief for the economy and for the tax coffers. Its not enough by itself.

You're assuming the €5 Billion tax reductions will just automatically mean it will all be go into the economy. In a depression and it's here, people hoard, it's the confidence thing. It's like arguing with a libertarian, it's inconceivable to you.

Why do you keep talking about left and right wing politics?

Because you keep throwing left wing out there.

How long do you think that's going to last?

Don't know. That's why I said we are dependent on the IMF/EU. If things get really, really bad, we wont be able to rely on the IMF! It's okay to say you don't know Doc Ruby, perfectly ok!

"The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

We are out of the markets for years. The markets have no faith in either left wing budgets or austerity budgets. They see right through them.

Doc Ruby

K-9 wrote: »

You're assuming the €5 Billion tax reductions will just automatically mean it will all be go into the economy. In a depression and it's here, people hoard, it's the confidence thing.

Those who hoard, hoard in those banks we're spending tens of billions to bail out, thus increasing the amount of capital the banks have. Not a bad outcome. Those who don't hoard, and they will be many, especially if you target tax cuts towards the poorest, will continue to kick the economy up a notch.

K-9 wrote: »

Because you keep throwing left wing out there.

What? Where?

K-9 wrote: »

Don't know. That's why I said we are dependent on the IMF/EU. If things get really, really bad, we wont be able to rely on the IMF! It's okay to say you don't know Doc Ruby, perfectly ok!

I know, thats why we better have a plan for that eventuality.

K-9

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Those who hoard, hoard in those banks we're spending tens of billions to bail out, thus increasing the amount of capital the banks have. Not a bad outcome. Those who don't hoard, and they will be many, especially if you target tax cuts towards the poorest, will continue to kick the economy up a notch.

Banks aren't lending. The idea is to get people not to hoard and save.

What? Where?

Apologies. Its were you think a €18 Billion cut it PS pay and Welfare will probably solve the €18 Billion deficit and you stuck to it!

I know, thats why we better have a plan for that eventuality.

Good man. Its a grudging acceptance that right and left wing economics are redundant, even the the markets, the deity they are, are seeing through it!

Doc Ruby

K-9 wrote: »

Banks aren't lending.

And yet we're still paying for them one way or the other.

K-9 wrote: »

Apologies. Its were you think a €18 Billion cut it PS pay and Welfare will probably solve the €18 Billion deficit and you stuck to it!

Good man. Its a grudging acceptance that right and left wing economics are redundant, even the the markets, the deity they are, are seeing through it!

My point of view is one of blunt practicality. I don't give a tinkers for left or right. We're spending too much, we need to reduce spending. The mad scheme I outlined is my fumbling attempt to minimise damage to the economy in the process.

Have you any ideas on that front?

Voodoo_rasher

"..while we hand over 1.3 billion to ONE SINGLE SECRET NAMELESS ANGLO IRISH BONDHOLDER THIS YEAR ALONE, never mind the other 248.3 BILLION of Irish taxpayers we're going to hand over.
This one bondholder could be Bertie, or Seanie, or Fingers for all we know, never mind all the others.

WHO ARE THEY ???

WHY CAN THEY NOT BE NAMED ? "

These marauding cvnts are involved:-

http://info-wars.org/2010/10/03/hedge-funds-hold-ireland-to-ransom-over-anglo-irish-bank-bail-out/

dxhound2005

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

"..while we hand over 1.3 billion to ONE SINGLE SECRET NAMELESS ANGLO IRISH BONDHOLDER THIS YEAR ALONE, never mind the other 248.3 BILLION of Irish taxpayers we're going to hand over.
This one bondholder could be Bertie, or Seanie, or Fingers for all we know, never mind all the others.

WHO ARE THEY ???

WHY CAN THEY NOT BE NAMED ? "

These marauding cvnts are involved:-

http://info-wars.org/2010/10/03/hedge-funds-hold-ireland-to-ransom-over-anglo-irish-bank-bail-out/

Hail independent media!!:pac:

Anyone who read The Telegraph last September got exactly the same story. Independent media?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8035645/Hedge-funds-hold-Ireland-to-ransom-over-Anglo-Irish-Bank-bail-out.html

kezo777

Hi,all. I am renting a house with my family and as the rest of the people living in rented properties i am excluded from household charge by law. Landlords however aren't. They will pass this payment to tenants-no doubt about that.Untill there's no mechanism to stop it from happening i cant see me paying for something that is not applicable from legal point of wiev.I would like to support non payment campain as such just because it creates lots of tensions between tennant and landlord ant ,tbh, i cant see any value for money in this payment, it's just same nonsense as carbon tax.Ice caps melting in Mars aswell,but has anybody seen a single SUV driving there?

B.J

K-9 wrote: »

cadaliac wrote: »

As stated before, if the money was going to a local authority, I would have no issue with it.
However, no one can prove that the money will even stay in the country let alone go towards a local authority.
Until this can be proven (to me) I have no intention of paying.

As others said this tax is going towards maintaining Council services or probably more accurately, less cuts in them.

It's the same as any other extra tax you pay, the increase in VAT, the USC, increased Income Tax by stealth, it's going towards trying to pay for welfare, PS pay, trying to keep as many schools, hospitals, Garda Barracks open as possible, that type of stuff.

What planet are people on who think this money is going to go towards schools, hospitals. Garda etc... The IMF are dictating that the government go ahead with this to raise the extra cash needed to pay back the bankers an developers an Sean Quinn's debt.... So whatever money is collected it has to go to the IMF .... So DON'T register for this tax, let's show some backbone in this country for once.....

Bishop_Donal

B.J wrote: »

What planet are people on who think this money is going to go towards schools, hospitals. Garda etc... The IMF are dictating that the government go ahead with this to raise the extra cash needed to pay back the bankers an developers an Sean Quinn's debt.... So whatever money is collected it has to go to the IMF .... So DON'T register for this tax, let's show some backbone in this country for once.....

Oh ya, it all goes to them. And then they give it all back and an extra Eur18bn with it........

We really should ask them to stop immediately, and while we figure out what we are going to do, we should suspend all Social Welfare payments (and the household charge).

If all those dependents would die (esp the old, young, handicapped and unemployed), your point would really make sense.