Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dxhound2005

Ghandee wrote: »

It won't be as easy to refuse to pay it then though. Once you register, your entering into a contract.

Refuse it now, like I say nip it in the bud before it gets out of control.

I can't see the voluntary registration system being the long term model. In the longer term anyway whether registered or not any property being sold or bequeathed has to have all amounts owing discharged before it can be transferred.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Regardless of your opinion of it's legitimacy it is the law of the land now. You are rightly proud of your private property so you need to consider the consequences of putting yourself outside the law. I would say if you can afford €100 pay it this year and avoid all the hassle. If it goes up to €500 or €1000 or whatever in a few years and you can't afford it well then you can't afford it so don't pay.

There is no question it will rise. The only point of it being 100e is to get you in the register and when you are in they have you for all time. If we don't make a stand at the outset then we are fools. You can't pay now and refuse later. i would feel like a hypocrite paying now and refusing later when I don't agree with it now.

K-9

Ghandee wrote: »

like I say nip it in the bud before it gets out of control.

Where'd you get this crap from?

Did you have to sign up to the USC?

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

There is no question it will rise. The only point of it being 100e is to get you in the register and when you are in they have you for all time. If we don't make a stand at the outset then we are fools. You can't pay now and refuse later. i would feel like a hypocrite paying now and refusing later when I don't agree with it now.

I dont like to keep quouting this stuff every few pages but it's in the law and there is no way round it in the longer term (unless the campaign suceeds)

(3) The vendor of a residential property shall, before the completion
of the sale of the property, pay to the relevant local authority
all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest
due and owing to the relevant local authority in respect of that residential
property.
(4) On or before the completion of the sale of a residential property,
the vendor of that residential property shall, in respect of that
residential property, give to the purchaser—
(a) a certificate of discharge,
(b) a certificate of exemption, or
(c) a certificate of waiver,
as may be appropriate, in respect of each year in which a liability
date fell since the date of the last sale of the property.
(5) As against a bona fide purchaser or mortgagee of such property
for full consideration in money or money’s worth without notice,
or a person deriving title from or under such a purchaser or mortgagee,
a certificate of discharge, a certificate of waiver or a certificate
of exemption shall discharge the property concerned from liability
for any household charge and related late payment fee and late payment
interest due by the owner of that property for each year in
which the liability date or dates to which the certificate relates fell.
(6) A person who contravenes subsection (3) shall be guilty of an
offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a class C fine.

Ghandee

K-9 wrote: »

Where'd you get this crap from?

Did you have to sign up to the USC?

No, but I don't pay it either. (that's irrelevant though)
The govt take it at source, they didn't ask you to voluntary register to pay it (which makes me question the legality of this one)

If it was so legal to make you pay it,b why are they putting the onus on us to register for it?

Personally, I smell a rat.

K-9

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I dont like to keep quouting this stuff every few pages but it's in the law and there is no way round it in the longer term (unless the campaign suceeds)

(3) The vendor of a residential property shall, before the completion
of the sale of the property, pay to the relevant local authority
all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest
due and owing to the relevant local authority in respect of that residential
property.
(4) On or before the completion of the sale of a residential property,
the vendor of that residential property shall, in respect of that
residential property, give to the purchaser—
(a) a certificate of discharge,
(b) a certificate of exemption, or
(c) a certificate of waiver,
as may be appropriate, in respect of each year in which a liability
date fell since the date of the last sale of the property.
(5) As against a bona fide purchaser or mortgagee of such property
for full consideration in money or money’s worth without notice,
or a person deriving title from or under such a purchaser or mortgagee,
a certificate of discharge, a certificate of waiver or a certificate
of exemption shall discharge the property concerned from liability
for any household charge and related late payment fee and late payment
interest due by the owner of that property for each year in
which the liability date or dates to which the certificate relates fell.
(6) A person who contravenes subsection (3) shall be guilty of an
offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a class C fine.

Better scrap the energy efficiency certificate so.

Ghandee wrote: »

No, but I don't pay it either. (that's irrelevant though)
The govt take it at source, they didn't ask you to voluntary register to pay it (which makes me question the legality of this one)

If it was so legal to make you pay it,b why are they putting the onus on us to register for it?

Personally, I smell a rat.

LOL, the USC is irrelevant, how convenient!

This isn't a voluntary tax. Income tax as a self employed person is a self assessment tax, it's still compulsory if you are self employed. Self Assessment is not the same thing as voluntary! The onus is on you to declare your liability, same as the self employed. On that basis I could start up business tomorrow, never tell Revenue and it would be their fault! :rolleyes:

Far too many legal eagles out there trying to find ways out of it that haven't the faintest clue what they are talking about. Just another extension of the bank owns my house muppets.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I dont like to keep quouting this stuff every few pages but it's in the law and there is no way round it in the longer term (unless the campaign suceeds)

(3) The vendor of a residential property shall, before the completion
of the sale of the property, pay to the relevant local authority
all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest
due and owing to the relevant local authority in respect of that residential
property.
(4) On or before the completion of the sale of a residential property,
the vendor of that residential property shall, in respect of that
residential property, give to the purchaser—
(a) a certificate of discharge,
(b) a certificate of exemption, or
(c) a certificate of waiver,
as may be appropriate, in respect of each year in which a liability
date fell since the date of the last sale of the property.
(5) As against a bona fide purchaser or mortgagee of such property
for full consideration in money or money’s worth without notice,
or a person deriving title from or under such a purchaser or mortgagee,
a certificate of discharge, a certificate of waiver or a certificate
of exemption shall discharge the property concerned from liability
for any household charge and related late payment fee and late payment
interest due by the owner of that property for each year in
which the liability date or dates to which the certificate relates fell.
(6) A person who contravenes subsection (3) shall be guilty of an
offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a class C fine.

I know what that says and means. Does not make it right. Once I rang the local Council as the drains were blocked. Was willing to pay for their service. They told me to sort it out myself as it was none of their business, it was my property. I now agree with them. It is MY property. Not theirs.
I am of an age when I don't worry about this kind of thing. I will not be selling and will eventually be carried out of here.
I do believe that people need to make a stand. I know the country is in hock but making already miserable people even worse will not solve the problem. Why should they pay gambling debts that are not theirs while the cronyism and wink wink politics still goes on. We need to send them a very strong message.

Ghandee

K-9 wrote: »

Better scrap the energy efficiency certificate so.



LOL, the USC is irrelevant, how convenient!

This isn't a voluntary tax. Income tax as a self employed person is a self assessment tax, it's still compulsory if you are self employed. Self Assessment is not the same thing as voluntary! The onus is on you to declare your liability, same as the self employed. On that basis I could start up business tomorrow, never tell Revenue and it would be their fault! :rolleyes:

Far too many legal eagles out there trying to find ways out of it that haven't the faintest clue what they are talking about. Just another extension of the bank owns my house muppets.

I'm not self employed though

I never said I was?


I'm in full time employment, PAYE employee.

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

I know what that says and means. Does not make it right. Once I rang the local Council as the drains were blocked. Was willing to pay for their service. They told me to sort it out myself as it was none of their business, it was my property. I now agree with them. It is MY property. Not theirs.
I am of an age when I don't worry about this kind of thing. I will not be selling and will eventually be carried out of here.
I do believe that people need to make a stand. I know the country is in hock but making already miserable people even worse will not solve the problem. Why should they pay gambling debts that are not theirs while the cronyism and wink wink politics still goes on. We need to send them a very strong message.

Taking a stand and sending a strong message is all very well but you finish up owing €142 in a years' time instead of paying €100. And once the law is in whether our next Taoiseach is Enda Kenny or Mick Wallace I can't see any administration doing away with an income stream from a property tax. Sinn Fein are running a scheme of domestic rates in the North so they certainly won't abolish it if they come to power here.

K-9

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm not self employed though

I never said I was?


I'm in full time employment, PAYE employee.

I'll leave the USC thing as it's preaching to the converted.

The Household tax is not voluntary. The Government aren't saying "please, pretty please" pay this. You have a legal obligation to pay it, otherwise penalties add up.

There is no contract! The Govt. sets out certain conditions, if you come under the law you pay. What contract do you think exists on the household tax?

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Taking a stand and sending a strong message is all very well but you finish up owing €142 in a years' time instead of paying €100. And once the law is in whether our next Taoiseach is Enda Kenny or Mick Wallace I can't see any administration doing away with an income stream from a property tax. Sinn Fein are running a scheme of domestic rates in the North so they certainly won't abolish it if they come to power here.

Not interested in party politics.
If enough people are prepared to refuse to pay this tax then it cannot be imposed on the people. It will not be possible to impose it.

Ghandee

K-9 wrote: »

I'll leave the USC thing as it's preaching to the converted.

The Household tax is not voluntary. The Government aren't saying "please, pretty please" pay this. You have a legal obligation to pay it, otherwise penalties add up.

There is no contract! The Govt. sets out certain conditions, if you come under the law you pay. What contract do you think exists on the household tax?

What about the legal aspect of corporations and county councils being registered companies, and as such you have to voluntary enter a contact with them?

K-9

Ghandee wrote: »

What about the legal aspect of corporations and county councils being registered companies, and as such you have to voluntary enter a contact with them?

Go on, where are they registered?

Please explain how we can all get out of this. I hate private corporations!

Ghandee

K-9 wrote: »

Go on, where are they registered?

Please explain how we can all get out of this. I hate private corporations!

This is mentioned in numerous places on this thread.

On mobile, so can't link to it.

If its wrong, so be it. I asked about it though, not stated it as fact.

K-9

Ghandee wrote: »

This is mentioned in numerous places on this thread.

On mobile, so can't link to it.

If its wrong, so be it. I asked about it though, not stated it as fact.

It's mentioned a couple of times, just like you did!

Still no evidence! No doubt it will be mentioned again, over and over, still no evidence!

Do take the time to find that link. I'm sure we are all interested in how we have to agree to contract to the registered private company, our local Co. Co.

Methinks you've been reading too many freemen sites, but do educate us sheep!

westendgirlie

Off I popped to the household charge website to look at the unfinished estates that would be waivered. They don't even have addresses listed down correctly. Some on the list have a planning ref only. I live in a village and have searched that ref via google and still none the wiser as to where the fook it is.

All I know is that my estate is not on it even though we have no proper road and the street lights have been turned off :mad:

tayto lover

westendgirlie wrote: »

Off I popped to the household charge website to look at the unfinished estates that would be waivered. They don't even have addresses listed down correctly. Some on the list have a planning ref only. I live in a village and have searched that ref via google and still none the wiser as to where the fook it is.

All I know is that my estate is not on it even though we have no proper road and the street lights have been turned off :mad:

Even if you pay things will remain that way.

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

Yes it is.

No where and at no time did I say I'd sign up to a household charge.

Why its that so difficult for you to comprehend?

You didn't say you'd give me a hundred euro, so if I approach you in the shop tomorrow and demand it, you would quite rightly tell me to get lost.

No?

Or am I missing something?

I would have though the 'something' you're missing is pretty obvious. You don't 'sign up' to pay certain taxes - so, yes, I make no apologies for finding your analogy hard to understand.
A Legislature has been elected, we have granted through our Constitution, that Legislature the power to levy taxes.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Citizens of this country don't have the right to opt in or opt out of certain taxes because they find them unpalatable - such a system would be unlikely to result in any stable form of Governance.

Bishop_Donal

I think no-one on either side of this argument is going to convince the other side of the merits of their argument now!!!!

We should probably just park it up.

Maybe when the Greek debt isn't written down, the default happens and the consequences are seen there, people in this country will wake up.

As for those who continue to argue that it isn't their debt, if you can't distinguish between theoretical Bank debt which was refinanced by the ECB (NOT THE IRISH TAXPAYER), and debt which was accumulated as a result of excessive spending in this country, I really can't help you.

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

I would have though the 'something' you're missing is pretty obvious. You don't 'sign up' to pay certain taxes - so, yes, I make no apologies for finding your analogy hard to understand.
A Legislature has been elected, we have granted through our Constitution, that Legislature the power to levy taxes.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Citizens of this country don't have the right to opt in or opt out of certain taxes because they find them unpalatable - such a system would be unlikely to result in any stable form of Governance.

This has all become pretty irrelevant to me now anyway.

Just received a letter from my local residents comittee, and it seems my estate is not subject to the charge. (unfinished)

Still, I will still continue to help the other poor folk being cajoled into paying it!

westendgirlie

Ghandee wrote: »

This has all become pretty irrelevant to me now anyway.

Just received a letter from my local residents comittee, and it seems my estate is not subject to the charge. (unfinished)

Still, I will still continue to help the other poor folk being cajoled into paying it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EI7p2p1QJI

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

This has all become pretty irrelevant to me now anyway.

Just received a letter from my local residents comittee, and it seems my estate is not subject to the charge. (unfinished)

Still, I will still continue to help the other poor folk being cajoled into paying it!

And so you should, if that is what you believe to be the correct action.

However, I've not yet seen an alternative to the current situation that you have advanced, other than the populist (and ultimately) self defeating 'stick 2 fingers up at the IMF' standard line, that seems to pass as a realistic alternative policy in the circles in which you travel.

in some ways I envy the simplistic way you see the world- it must be lovely.

For the rest of us, we're stuck in a ****ty situation with no easy answers.

bgrizzley

Ghandee wrote: »

This has all become pretty irrelevant to me now anyway.

Just received a letter from my local residents comittee, and it seems my estate is not subject to the charge. (unfinished)

Still, I will still continue to help the other poor folk being cajoled into paying it!

Ghandee, do you know if you still have to register even though you are not liable?

Am Chile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz65wHaREmI&list=UU8WM9OVRIwPKvMFRliOJVSA&index=1&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NJm66Lb1Aw

Ghandee

bgrizzley wrote: »

Ghandee, do you know if you still have to register even though you are not liable?

Hi.

The newsletter I got through the door tells me that 'the onus is still on the householder to register and select the waiver button'

I'm not going to be doing that though.

You wouldn't register for motor tax if I didn't own a motor, would you?
They'll not be getting my details!

dxhound2005

Am Chile wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz65wHaREmI&list=UU8WM9OVRIwPKvMFRliOJVSA&index=1&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NJm66Lb1Aw

Everyone chanting Can't pay Won't pay must be the owner of a private property liable for the charge. If they can't pay €100 it puts their ownership of a private property on a precarious footing. It is possible that some of them could qualify for a waiver under the mortgage supplement provision.

Bruthal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Everyone chanting Can't pay Won't pay must be the owner of a private property liable for the charge. If they can't pay €100 it puts their ownership of a private property on a precarious footing. It is possible that some of them could qualify for a waiver under the mortgage supplement provision.

The €100 charge is just the introductory softener charge, to get everyone to register, so then when the real charge comes (€500?, €1000?), they have everyones details. So again, saying the actual €100 amount is easily managable is a pointless arguement.

Also, many home owners are already on a precarious footing, or worse.

Flex

black francis wrote: »

And so you should, if that is what you believe to be the correct action.

However, I've not yet seen an alternative to the current situation that you have advanced, other than the populist (and ultimately) self defeating 'stick 2 fingers up at the IMF' standard line, that seems to pass as a realistic alternative policy in the circles in which you travel.

in some ways I envy the simplistic way you see the world- it must be lovely.

For the rest of us, we're stuck in a ****ty situation with no easy answers.

I find myself feeling the same lately. A guy in my office vehemently refuses to pay more in tax and laughs away at the people paying the household charge, but becomes semi-irate when one suggests cutting pensions, dole, eduction and health, etc. to bridge the deficit. He swats away any logic or facts with the usual battle cry of the economically illiterate "Tax dhe rich, dhey pay no tacks" or "Im not payin fur duh banks". I wonder what it must be like to be able to drift through life with so little awareness of whats going on right in front of your face.

Then another part of me believes that people who say they will refuse to pay more taxes or accept cuts in welfare/services because of "dhe bancz" are well aware what theyre saying is crap. They just prefer to dress their refusal up as being about them standing up to evil corporations rather than just coming out and saying they want all their freebies from the government but dont want to have to adequately fund them.

Bruthal

Flex wrote: »

I find myself feeling the same lately. A guy in my office vehemently refuses to pay more in tax and laughs away at the people paying the household charge, but becomes semi-irate when one suggests cutting pensions, dole, eduction and health, etc. to bridge the deficit. He swats away any logic or facts with the usual battle cry of the economically illiterate "Tax dhe rich, dhey pay no tacks" or "Im not payin fur duh banks". I wonder what it must be like to be able to drift through life with so little awareness of whats going on right in front of your face.

Then another part of me believes that people who say they will refuse to pay more taxes or accept cuts in welfare/services because of "dhe bancz" are well aware what theyre saying is crap. They just prefer to dress their refusal up as being about them standing up to evil corporations rather than just coming out and saying they want all their freebies from the government but dont want to have to adequately fund them.

So the economically illiterate speak with the text speak accents do they?

So then, how much will the property tax go up to by 2015, for the benefit of the illiterate?

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

The €100 charge is just the introductory softener charge, to get everyone to register, so then when the real charge comes (€500?, €1000?), they have everyones details. So again, saying the actual €100 amount is easily managable is a pointless arguement.

Also, many home owners are already on a precarious footing, or worse.

+1

What's worse is the fact that the proxy taxes are not being reduced either.

For example, the Car tax goes directly to the local council.
Like how else do you think the councils were funded in the past, the money had to come from somewhere!