Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Galtee

donalg1 wrote: »

The quotes you refer to were in response to the drivel spouted by a few here when referring to a quote Enda made in 1994, which for some reason they seem to think it has any relevance today, the quotes you refer to were posted to highlight the idiocy of those that continue to post Enda's quote from 1994.

Of course the Enda Kenny quote is important and relevant as it directly contradicts what he (the same person, not dead) said originally, why is that so difficult for you to understand. It may not support your argument but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant to the discussion.

donalg1 wrote: »

I haven't seen any alternatives mentioned in any of the last dozen pages of this thread, but if you want to post a list of them I will be happy to read them

*facepalm* Go and read the whole thread if you want and remember, you don't have to agree with them for them to be viable alternatives. Try and look at it objectively.

donalg1

Galtee wrote: »

Of course the Enda Kenny quote is important and relevant as it directly contradicts what he (the same person, not dead) said originally, why is that so difficult for you to understand. It may not support your argument but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant to the discussion.



*facepalm* Go and read the whole thread if you want and remember, you don't have to agree with them for them to be viable alternatives. Try and look at it objectively.

I dont see how you can claim that quote is relevant, for it to be relevant today you must believe the economic situation in Ireland today is the same as it was in 1994?

I surely wont be reading the whole thread I think the last few pages are indicative of the whole thread, a brief synopsis would be, bondholders blah blah blah, Enda Kenny 1994 blah blah blah.

None of which actually shows any alternatives. Why dont you tell me how you would raise additional revenue if the household charge is scrapped?

Gophur

For those who are saying €100 isn't much?

Correct, €100 is not a lot, however, our annual Motor Tax is already going to the local council, approx €1,500, in my case, and yet we have this charge levied on the house (which does not earn a cent). We're told the money is for Fire Brigade services (which the council do not provide free of charge), for water, which the council do not provide, for sewerage, which the council do not provide, for public amenities (I'd love to see some), for libraries (I wonder?) etc, etc.

The household tax is for the salaries of our Public/Civil Servants. Just because it's a new name tax it does not follow that there's some untapped income source waiting to pay it.

The Septic Tank registration charge is another joke. Why should people have to pay to register details that are already registered?

donalg1

Gophur wrote: »

For those who are saying €100 isn't much?

Correct, €100 is not a lot, however, our annual Motor Tax is already going to the local council, approx €1,500, in my case, and yet we have this charge levied on the house (which does not earn a cent). We're told the money is for Fire Brigade services (which the council do not provide free of charge), for water, which the council do not provide, for sewerage, which the council do not provide, for public amenities (I'd love to see some), for libraries (I wonder?) etc, etc.

The household tax is for the salaries of our Public/Civil Servants. Just because it's a new name tax it does not follow that there's some untapped income source waiting to pay it.

The Septic Tank registration charge is another joke. Why should people have to pay to register details that are already registered?

In 2008 the Government introduced the carbon based emissions motor tax rates which has impacted hugely on the revenue being generated by motor tax receipts so alternatives have to be looked at and the Household Charge / Property Tax is one alternative. The reason they brought it in is because it will provide a stable tax base and predictable annual yield which will give the Local Authorities more control of their own budgets.

Galtee

donalg1 wrote: »

I dont see how you can claim that quote is relevant, for it to be relevant today you must believe the economic situation in Ireland today is the same as it was in 1994?

I surely wont be reading the whole thread I think the last few pages are indicative of the whole thread, a brief synopsis would be, bondholders blah blah blah, Enda Kenny 1994 blah blah blah.

None of which actually shows any alternatives. Why dont you tell me how you would raise additional revenue if the household charge is scrapped?

Because he used the word morally, which is ones basic principle of what's right and wrong and he has done a complete U-Turn meaning he's untrustworthy and that's not a trait that should be synonymous with Taioseach.

I have maintained all along that a third tax band should be introduced end of, no ifs or buts. I would also like closer monitoring of state body department expenditure and those who spend 80% of their budget in the last 2 months of the year should be scrutinised further. That's just two off the top that would reel in/save massive revenue.

donalg1

Galtee wrote: »

Because he used the word morally, which is ones basic principle of what's right and wrong and he has done a complete U-Turn meaning he's untrustworthy and that's not a trait that should be synonymous with Taioseach.

I have maintained all along that a third tax band should be introduced end of, no ifs or buts. I would also like closer monitoring of state body department expenditure and those who spend 80% of their budget in the last 2 months of the year should be scrutinised further. That's just two off the top that would reel in/save massive revenue.

A u-turn meaning he has the ability to change his mind along with the changes in the economy you mean? I dont see the problem with doing that in fact I see it as a good thing that he can change his mind and do what is necessary to point the country back on the road to some form of stability.

And as for budgets, most local authorities and other state bodies aren't notified of their budgets until well in to the year and are again not notified of the full annual budget so alot of the time they can only actually spend their budget in the final part of the year because this is when they are told how much money will be released to them. So its more an issue with central government and the need for them to notify everyone of their annual budget at the beginning of the year and not in drips and drabs throughout the year. Unfortunately this isnt always possible as not every revenue source is predictable and therefore the need for stable predictable income is looked at and one solution to it is the introduction of the Household Charge.

I do agree with the need to introduce a third tax band, and increase income tax by 1% across the board, also the need for reform in Social Welfare benefits is another huge issue that requires immediate attention.

Gophur

donalg1 wrote: »

In 2008 the Government introduced the carbon based emissions motor tax rates which has impacted hugely on the revenue being generated by motor tax receipts so alternatives have to be looked at and the Household Charge / Property Tax is one alternative. The reason they brought it in is because it will provide a stable tax base and predictable annual yield which will give the Local Authorities more control of their own budgets.

Actually, alternatives did not have to be looked at. A fairer motor tax system would give appropriate revenues to the State. In my case, I am being asked to fund the local council, who do very little in the provision of services, by paying more money. The CO2 based system is a joke and needed reform. This should have been done before levying any new taxes.

The Motor tax system was and is a stable tax system.

What we have are too many councils and too many council staff.

Why, for example, do we have 29 different motor tax systems in Ireland? DVLA, in Swansea, is one office, catering for all of the England,Wales and Scotland registrations.

Galtee

donalg1 wrote: »

A u-turn meaning he has the ability to change his mind along with the changes in the economy you mean? I dont see the problem with doing that in fact I see it as a good thing that he can change his mind and do what is necessary to point the country back on the road to some form of stability.

It's not just a change of mind, it's a change of prinicple. It's completely different. Country back on the road to blah blah blah, more pro drivel.

donalg1 wrote: »

And as for budgets, most local authorities and other state bodies aren't notified of their budgets until well in to the year and are again not notified of the full annual budget so alot of the time they can only actually spend their budget in the final part of the year because this is when they are told how much money will be released to them. So its more an issue with central government and the need for them to notify everyone of their annual budget at the beginning of the year and not in drips and drabs throughout the year. Unfortunately this isnt always possible as not every revenue source is predictable and therefore the need for stable predictable income is looked at and one solution to it is the introduction of the Household Charge.

By and large budget is allocated at the start of the year. Hence the above is waffle.

donalg1 wrote: »

I do agree with the need to introduce a third tax band, and increase income tax by 1% across the board, also the need for reform in Social Welfare benefits is another huge issue that requires immediate attention.

Agreed. I could live with those. But before any increase in tax I would like to see a complete overhaul of public spending as alluded to. Only then will the increase be justified and sustainable because we will only know what the actual deficit is by having proper control and knowledge of actual expenditure.

donalg1

Galtee wrote: »

It's not just a change of mind, it's a change of prinicple. It's completely different. Country back on the road to blah blah blah, more pro drivel.



By and large budget is allocated at the start of the year. Hence the above is waffle.



Agreed. I could live with those. But before any increase in tax I would like to see a complete overhaul of public spending as alluded to. Only then will the increase be justified and sustainable because we will only know what the actual deficit is by having proper control and knowledge of actual expenditure.

Wrong

Galtee

donalg1 wrote: »

Wrong

I think you're getting confused between, allocated and made available.

Gophur

Mary Coughlan and Batt O'Keeffe (now both multi-millionaires by virtue of their pensions) were both masters of the Budget sleight-of-hand where they would publish a budget for schools' spending, knowing the money could not be spent in the year it was allocated.

That way they looked good by making the funds available but blamed others when the projects were not ready in time to draw down the funds (which were never going to be there).

Joshua Jones

dxhound2005 wrote: »

No doubt the citizens on these lists felt it was unjust and unfair to be asked to give any of their money to the state.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/index.html#year2011

You or I cannot speculate on the workings of their minds. Tis heresay. All I'm saying is that a person has a right to challenge any law in anyway they see fit. Paying it and then writing a letter to a whipped TD is a waste of time. You'd be better throwing it in the bin. If it gets to the stage of people having to go to court then they get their day in court, simple as. Not up to you or me to dictate how the stand up for their rights.

All the anti brigade here is spout the same drivvel constantly about bond holders etc... Yet not a single one of them has mentioned an alternative means to raising even the smallest amount of revenue

Well I don't feel the need to think of ways because I dont feel responsible for the situation we're in. People seem to have this weird dream, like society is some sort of altruistic organism which is there for the betterment of everyone. Look out the window, people would sell their granny for a fistful of money.

Society is a dreamy illusion, an idea, but the reality is every man for himself. It's there to keep a class system in place and the power in the same hands while the plebs geneflect.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Wrong

Low on time today again donal?:pac:

donalg1

robbie7730 wrote: »

Low on time today again donal?:pac:

Trolling again Robbie, sure you may as well change your name to troll7730 be far more apt

tayto lover

donalg1 wrote: »

In 2008 the Government introduced the carbon based emissions motor tax rates which has impacted hugely on the revenue being generated by motor tax receipts so alternatives have to be looked at and the Household Charge / Property Tax is one alternative. The reason they brought it in is because it will provide a stable tax base and predictable annual yield which will give the Local Authorities more control of their own budgets.

So you admit it has nothing to do with services. Thanks.

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

So you admit it has nothing to do with services. Thanks.

It will work the same way as motor tax, all revenue received in say carlow is centralised and then redistributed back to the LA to fund local services, same as the NPPR, although if they do what they did with that you would probably notice a reduction in the LGF equivalent to the amount raised by the NPPR

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Trolling again Robbie, sure you may as well change your name to troll7730 be far more apt

O right, so with you, having a joke is either a personal attack, or trolling.
I better stop now, before you recommend a sense of humour tax.

donalg1

robbie7730 wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

Trolling again Robbie, sure you may as well change your name to troll7730 be far more apt

O right, so with you, having a joke is either a personal attack, or trolling.
I better stop now, before you recommend a sense of humour tax.

No trolling is trolling Robbie no two ways about it

Fam207

I was at the meeting in cork city last night,there was a fair mixture of all different groupings, old, young, unemployed, professionals, public sector, working class/ middle class people,and each was angry about this unfair taxation measure.

glensat

Joshua Jones wrote: »

You ever been there when you're completely broke and you have to go count up and bag your change from your copper jar and your hands stink from the smell of all the brock.

That's Ireland that is.

:)Sure have

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

No trolling is trolling Robbie no two ways about it

Whatever you say donal. It sounds like a new phrase you learned on boards, and now its your new time saving answer.

Good luck.

Bruthal

Anyway, i think this has run its course myself, so have a good day donal, and others.

donalg1

robbie7730 wrote: »

Anyway, i think this has run its course myself, so have a good day donal, and others.

See ya

tayto lover

Fam207 wrote: »

I was at the meeting in cork city last night,there was a fair mixture of all different groupings, old, young, unemployed, professionals, public sector, working class/ middle class people,and each was angry about this unfair taxation measure.

How many would you estimate attended ?

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

No doubt the citizens on these lists felt it was unjust and unfair to be asked to give any of their money to the state.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/index.html#year2011

Joshua Jones wrote: »

You or I cannot speculate on the workings of their minds. Tis heresay. All I'm saying is that a person has a right to challenge any law in anyway they see fit. Paying it and then writing a letter to a whipped TD is a waste of time. You'd be better throwing it in the bin. If it gets to the stage of people having to go to court then they get their day in court, simple as. Not up to you or me to dictate how the stand up for their rights.

I don't know what was in the mind of those people people as individuals but they are part of a culture of tax evasion. They are just the ones who defied the law up to the point where they had to have their names published and did you see some of the amounts involved? They are certainly not those people saving up their coppers in a jar.

I don't know either what is in the mind of people who defraud insurance companies, print forged notes, shoplift, evade the TV licence or indulge in a host of other illegal activities. But I do know it costs the rest of us (the sheep) more to pay for their activities and if everyone was allowed to apply your pick and choose attitude to the law under the guise of some sort of principled objection it would lead to chaos.

People will have a chance at the next election to throw out Enda for his lying and replace his lot with politicians who will do away with a stupid idea like a revenue stream from private property. And these are proper people who live on the same wage as an ordinary worker.

Joshua Jones

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't know what was in the mind of those people people as individuals but they are part of a culture of tax evasion. They are just the ones who defied the law up to the point where they had to have their names published and did you see some of the amounts involved? They are certainly not those people saving up their coppers in a jar.

I don't know either what is in the mind of people who defraud insurance companies, print forged notes, shoplift, evade the TV licence or indulge in a host of other illegal activities. But I do know it costs the rest of us (the sheep) more to pay for their activities and if everyone was allowed to apply your pick and choose attitude to the law under the guise of some sort of principled objection it would lead to chaos.

People will have a chance at the next election to throw out Enda for his lying and replace his lot with politicians who will do away with a stupid idea like a revenue stream from private property. And these are proper people who live on the same wage as an ordinary worker.

The simple fact is though, that the more money you have and can afford a good accountant then you can definately "pick and choose" which taxes you pay. What people want is a fair system and at the moment the vast majority of people are being footed with the dinner bill without even getting a scrap to eat. They didn't even have a seat at the table. Waiting till the next election means never dealing with the issue. Some would rather ordinary folks just put up and shut up, maybe they've got too much to lose. O the times they are a changing.

P2011

I'm not registering. I found this article online earlier.

http://thoughtactioneire.blogspot.com/2012/01/legal-basis-for-not-paying-household.html

THE LEGAL BASIS FOR NOT PAYING THE HOUSEHOLD CHARGE

You won’t get a bill because the charge is a Statute. People need to understand this: A Statute is a “legislated rule of society given the force of law by the consent of the governed.”(Black’s Law Dictionary, 4th edition).

Who are those it governs? We, the public.

This household charge is a Statute, otherwise known as an Act of Government, and only carries the force of law upon you if you consent to it which means that you are legally obliged to pay IF you consent or, in other words, go on to householdcharge.ie and register. Your silence and inaction will also give the appearance of no consent. If you do not consent, a Statute cannot affect you in any way whatsoever.

The courts know this and the last thing they will do is tell you. In fact they will hide this from you at every opportunity they can. On the other hand, if you tell them at an appropriate time, they will accept it because they know it is actually true. According to the above definition, a statutory instrument is a contract. If you register for this “charge” you are consenting to this statute ie: signing the contract. This is why the Government are ASKING the people to register and not just billing them instead.

ADDENDUM ON THE SEPTIC TANK “CHARGE”

For those of you who are said to be “liable” for the septic tank charge, the argument above also applies. If they are asking you to register – rather than simply sending you a bill – it means that they are ASKING YOU FOR CONSENT to send one of their inspectors. Most owners of septic tanks look after their septic tanks because they want to ensure that they have a sewage system that does not pose a risk to their families. So, if you WANT to pay for an inspector, register. BUT if you want to be left alone and get on with your life WITHOUT YET ANOTHER BILL, SIMPLY DO NOT REGISTER.

P2011

Fam207 wrote: »

I was at the meeting in cork city last night,there was a fair mixture of all different groupings, old, young, unemployed, professionals, public sector, working class/ middle class people,and each was angry about this unfair taxation measure.

This is a fair reflection.

Frank Black

P2011 wrote: »

I'm not registering. I found this article online earlier.

http://thoughtactioneire.blogspot.com/2012/01/legal-basis-for-not-paying-household.html

Jesus! How many more times is this **** going to get posted here?

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

Jesus! How many more times is this **** going to get posted here?

Maybe its true Francis

I've yet to see you post any evidence that contradicts it.