Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Bruthal

smash wrote: »

No it's not

Yes i know. Too many drugs for a busted up leg. I blame the drugs.

crusher000

I agree, we all don't watch RTE and well over a year ago with all the coverage of economic downfall i had enough and no longer buy papers. listen to news current affair programs on the TV or radio used to follow all current affairs. Most information I now hear is second hand but life is alot more better since I imposed a media black out. (Also I no longer want to be part of the european progam but as the country I live is in it I have no choice) this last statement is a p*** take in case I get a back lash.

golfwallah

smash wrote: »

Enlighten me then as to how they will collect it if people don't pay, and refuse to pay a fine?



No it's not

How Household Charge will be collected if people don't pay is already explained in earlier posts - if you took the time to read them.

Government have little choice but to make this work ..... it's not rocket science - all it takes is determination to see it through - they already have the mandate to sort out the country's finances.

I attach FAQ again, which explains all relevant details: https://www.householdcharge.ie/Faq.aspx#fk16

DoesNotCompute

robbie7730 wrote: »

Not all countrymen will have to contribute to this tax though, only home owners.

Irrelevant. All countrymen use the services of the local government, whether they want to admit or not.

Bruthal

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Irrelevant. All countrymen use the services of the local government, whether they want to admit or not.

Yes, but home owners are being targeted to pay, not all countrymen.

smash

golfwallah wrote: »

How Household Charge will be collected if people don't pay is already explained in earlier posts - if you took the time to read them.

Government have little choice but to make this work ..... it's not rocket science - all it takes is determination to see it through - they already have the mandate to sort out the country's finances.

I attach FAQ again, which explains all relevant details: https://www.householdcharge.ie/Faq.aspx#fk16

If you read the document it just states there will be fees and penalties. It doesn't state how they will collect the money.

golfwallah

smash wrote: »

If you read the document it just states there will be fees and penalties. It doesn't state how they will collect the money.

It's all there - just read it again ..... slowly .... then think about it.

Slow down ..... you're too quick at posting ...... I'm not your teacher or your mammy ....... I'm off to the gym .... this is just crazy!!

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

If you read the document it just states there will be fees and penalties. It doesn't state how they will collect the money.

Looks clear to me - "Any Household Charges or late payment penalties due on a residential property will have to be discharged, in full, before a transfer or sale of the property can be completed. "

jack67

well for some who can afford to go to the gym

smash

golfwallah wrote: »

It's all there - just read it again ..... slowly .... then think about it.

Slow down ..... you're too quick at posting ...... I'm not your teacher or your mammy ....... I'm off to the gym .... this is just crazy!!

No it's not, so drop the condescending attitude:

"An owner of a residential property who does not pay a Household Charge or an instalment thereof by the due date will be subject to (1) LATE PAYMENT FEES and (2) LATE PAYMENT INTEREST"

"Any Household Charges or late payment penalties due on a residential property will have to be discharged, in full, before a transfer or sale of the property can be completed."

So if you have no intention of selling and refuse to pay, what will they do?

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

So if you have no intention of selling and refuse to pay, what will they do?

Have you no intention of dying either?

smash

black francis wrote: »

Have you no intention of dying either?

"Penalties and interest which had been accruing up to the point of death cease and no further penalties are applied, provided that the personal representative of the deceased discharges the full amount of the household charge, late payment fees and interest due up to the date of death within 3 months of the date of the grant of representation to the estate of the deceased."

Parent dies, you have 3 months to pay. You refuse to pay, what will they do?

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

"Penalties and interest which had been accruing up to the point of death cease and no further penalties are applied, provided that the personal representative of the deceased discharges the full amount of the household charge, late payment fees and interest due up to the date of death within 3 months of the date of the grant of representation to the estate of the deceased."

Parent dies, you have 3 months to pay. You refuse to pay, what will they do?

Well presumambly the property cannot be transfered to the next of kin and the state becoimes the de-facto owner of the property, in this instance the state can recover the charge by selling the property.

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

Well presumambly the property cannot be transfered to the next of kin and the state becoimes the de-facto owner of the property, in this instance the state can recover the charge by selling the property.

Presumably.


Your some craic.


A legal document should have a little bit more clarity in it than a 'presumption' no?

smash

black francis wrote: »

Well presumambly the property cannot be transfered to the next of kin and the state becoimes the de-facto owner of the property, in this instance the state can recover the charge by selling the property.

Why are you presuming that. It doesn't say that anywhere. It says the fines/penalties must be paid within 3 months of change of ownership or in other words "within 3 months of the date of the grant of representation to the estate of the deceased". They can not just take a house that's been fully paid for.

What they could do it add the amount to the inheritance tax but is also does not say that anywhere.

dvpower

smash wrote: »

Enlighten me then as to how they will collect it if people don't pay, and refuse to pay a fine?

Get a court order maybe.
Get an attachment order and take it directly from your salary maybe.

DoesNotCompute

gerryo777 wrote: »

What a complete load of ****e.
The pro campaign must be in big trouble when they're coming out with this kind of drivel!!

The anti campaign must be in much worse shape by insulting people and calling them "sheep" and "government shills".

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

Presumably.


Your some craic.


A legal document should have a little bit more clarity in it than a 'presumption' no?

You think my post is a legal document?


If you want legal clarity ask a solicitor - I'm just giving an opinion thus my use of the word 'presumably'.

Bruthal

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

The anti campaign must be in much worse shape by insulting people and calling them "sheep" and "government shills".

What difference does it make what shape anything is in? What is, is. The pro campaign posters were not short of a few little insults themselves. That also wont change what is or will be.

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

Why are you presuming that. It doesn't say that anywhere. It says the fines/penalties must be paid within 3 months of change of ownership or in other words "within 3 months of the date of the grant of representation to the estate of the deceased". They can not just take a house that's been fully paid for.

What they could do it add the amount to the inheritance tax but is also does not say that anywhere.

See my answer above.

At the end of the day, I don't really give a **** how they collect it because I've paid so it's a moot point for me. The non-payers are the ones that need to educate themselves on their possible future liabilities.

smash

dvpower wrote: »

Get a court order maybe.
Get an attachment order and take it directly from your salary maybe.

black francis wrote: »

See my answer above.

At the end of the day, I don't really give a **** how they collect it because I've paid so it's a moot point for me.

The point is that nothing has been stated as to how they can get it. I said they can't prosecute almost 1/4 of the population and was told "they don't have to", but they do if they want the money.

black francis wrote: »

The non-payers are the ones that need to educate themselves on their possible future liabilities.

And the payers need to educate themselves as to the trap they're falling in to. Pay now and see what level it's at in 3 or 4 years. At that stage you have no right to complain because you agreed to it.

Annabella1

Paid the fee last night....Euro 100...took about 2mins
What's the big deal? It will increase...two certainties death and taxes!
Get really annoyed at 2 bit politicians hoovering up big salaries and unvouched expenses advising people to break the law to enhance their reelection prospects.
We have bigger problems in this country at the moment.

the groutch

Annabella1 wrote: »

Paid the fee last night....Euro 100...took about 2mins
What's the big deal? It will increase...two certainties death and taxes!
Get really annoyed at 2 bit politicians hoovering up big salaries and unvouched expenses advising people to break the law to enhance their reelection prospects.
We have bigger problems in this country at the moment.

Get really annoyed at 2 bit politicians hoovering up big salaries and unvouched expenses, making election promises they know they can't follow up on to enhance their re-election prospects.

so what's your point?

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

And the payers need to educate themselves as to the trap they're falling in to. Pay now and see what level it's at in 3 or 4 years. At that stage you have no right to complain because you agreed to it.

I reserve the right to complain about my taxes for the rest of my life.

I'm under no illusion that the charge will rise in the coming years - as will most taxes.

smash

black francis wrote: »

I'm under no illusion that the charge will rise in the coming years - as will most taxes.

They announced "We will not tax people's income any more", so instead they'll just tax everything else. There's a breaking point, and to a lot of people this is it. Why touch people's homes? Why not add a gambling tax or an extra €1 on cigarettes and make 50x what the household tax will bring in?

seamus

smash wrote: »

"Penalties and interest which had been accruing up to the point of death cease and no further penalties are applied, provided that the personal representative of the deceased discharges the full amount of the household charge, late payment fees and interest due up to the date of death within 3 months of the date of the grant of representation to the estate of the deceased."

Parent dies, you have 3 months to pay. You refuse to pay, what will they do?

After the 3 month period, penalties and interest will resume accruing on the property. Unless you plan on keeping the property in your family's possession for the next 200 years, they will get their money eventually.

mconigol

This is what the constitution says in regards to private property:

Private Property
Article 43
1. 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.
2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.
2. 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article
ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.
2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

I think No. 2 is interesting:

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

Of course it depends if a property tax can be classified as being for the common good. I'm sure it can be twisted that way.

squod

dvpower wrote: »

The anti household charge campaign cannot bring the country to a halt.
To suggest it could is fanciful nonsence.

Codology! Are you a member of any of the campaign teams?

starbelgrade

smash wrote: »

Why are you presuming that. It doesn't say that anywhere. It says the fines/penalties must be paid within 3 months of change of ownership or in other words "within 3 months of the date of the grant of representation to the estate of the deceased". They can not just take a house that's been fully paid for.

The tax is essentially on the house, so if it is sold or passed on then it will have to be paid then.

It will come down to solicitors having to ensure that all outstanding debts are paid off before any transfers of property can take place, for which I'm sure, they will charge an additional fee.

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

They announced "We will not tax people's income any more", so instead they'll just tax everything else. There's a breaking point, and to a lot of people this is it. Why touch people's homes? Why not add a gambling tax or an extra €1 on cigarettes and make 50x what the household tax will bring in?

Well, because a property tax brings in a stable form of tax income every year - the alternatives you have mentioned are cyclical taxes which are driven by activity in the market place, whether that be people buying ciggarettes or people choosing to gamble.

Large scale increses in public spending on the back of highly cyclical taxes like VAT and Stamp Duty are what got us into the mess in the first place.

seamus

mconigol wrote: »

I think No. 2 is interesting:

Of course it depends if a property tax can be classified as being for the common good. I'm sure it can be twisted that way.

The property tax can never actually prevent you from transferring property. It is a payment that will be liable when the property is sold, exactly like stamp duty.
It doesn't fundamentally prevent anyone from transferring the property, it simply becomes a fee which is payable when the property is transferred.

smash

black francis wrote: »

Well, because a property tax brings in a stable form of tax income every year - the alternatives you have mentioned are cyclical taxes which are driven by activity in the market place, whether that be people buying ciggarettes or people choosing to gamble.

Large scale increses in public spending on the back of highly cyclical taxes like VAT and Stamp Duty are what got us into the mess in the first place.

irrespective of any taxes, there should be no large scale increase in public spending. The money is needed to repay loans. If they want it, they should tax these luxuries/bad habits.

donalg1

People say that if you register now then you will be paying a lot more in a few years (scaremongering) so there is no way they are registering now. I dont get this, the household charge is being replaced by the property tax so in a few years the household charge wont exist so registering now wont have any affect on what you pay in a few years as all will be liable for the new property tax.

Surely if the property tax is to be based on a site valuation then there will be a database of some sort with all those liable for the tax included on it and everyone liable will get a bill and there will be none of this self declaration nonsense.

The household charge will only show the Government that self declaration doesnt work so surely they will figure out a better way of guaranteeing collection of the property tax.

Frank Black

smash wrote: »

irrespective of any taxes, there should be no large scale increase in public spending. The money is needed to repay loans. If they want it, they should tax these luxuries/bad habits.

I'm getting really confused now - who's arguing for 'large scale increases in public spending'?

And the money is actually need to balance our own budget, not to pay back loans - we can argue about the loans when we're not in the position to have to depend on them in the first place to keep the country running.

Bruthal

robbie7730 wrote: »

gurramok wrote: »

I'd have no problem paying at a level of 500quid if it came to it. Thats just 1.37cents a day.

Sure 20k is just 54 cent a day.

Thats where i went wrong, i was going by gurramok`s method:)

seamus

donalg1 wrote: »

People say that if you register now then you will be paying a lot more in a few years (scaremongering) so there is no way they are registering now.

Some people are under the illusion that if you don't register, your property magically becomes invisible and the government don't know that it's there so they can't tax it.

mconigol

seamus wrote: »

The property tax can never actually prevent you from transferring property. It is a payment that will be liable when the property is sold, exactly like stamp duty.
It doesn't fundamentally prevent anyone from transferring the property, it simply becomes a fee which is payable when the property is transferred.

I can understand that, but to say that the right exists while at the same time effectively forcing you to pay for those rights is in effect an attempt to abolish those rights in my opinion.

Obviously it's very open to debate. That's how I would view it. I would also consider stamp duty to fall into the same category.

donalg1 wrote: »

People say that if you register now then you will be paying a lot more in a few years (scaremongering) so there is no way they are registering now. I dont get this, the household charge is being replaced by the property tax so in a few years the household charge wont exist so registering now wont have any affect on what you pay in a few years as all will be liable for the new property tax.

Surely if the property tax is to be based on a site valuation then there will be a database of some sort with all those liable for the tax included on it and everyone liable will get a bill and there will be none of this self declaration nonsense.

The household charge will only show the Government that self declaration doesnt work so surely they will figure out a better way of guaranteeing collection of the property tax.

This is one of the main problems with the way this charge is being introduced. Nobody knows what will happen a year from now. There is no plan, publicly at least.

When you need to resort to "surely this will happen" or "presumably that will happen" etc... then it's bad law. Lack of planning is what got the country into the mess it is in, lack of planning will not get it out.

Likewise, keeping people in the dark, when it's those very people who you need to get behind you is unwise. Smacks of poor leadership.

cowzerp

My house like most peoples is worth fook all compared to what we paid and what we owe for it-and then these chumps want a tax for the privilidge in us been trapped for probably our whole lives in a house that was meant to be a starter for us till we could move to a bigger nicer house etc

We already pay for Bins which is basically a household charge and me and my partner are tax compliant and pay a fortune on taxes for to run our cars which we need for to work to pay more taxes.

This is not about the 100 euro, its the principle

I wish people would get some balls and just say NO, NO More ripping the piiss out of us.

Tax the Bankers that got us in trouble, Legally look at getting money back from some of these Bankers who paiud themselves massive bonuses and wages, reduce the extortionate wages TD's are on, Increase income tax on the very high earners-cut down on the amount of TD's and stop givinmg mates pointless jobs in the seanad, We're a country of wimps that always bows down to been giving the bare minimum and been scammed

The people who need it most are the people hardest hit, Millionaires will be paying the same 100 euro that poor people will, it's all a big joke.

dvpower

smash wrote: »

The point is that nothing has been stated as to how they can get it. I said they can't prosecute almost 1/4 of the population and was told "they don't have to", but they do if they want the money.

Nobody needs to be prosecuted in order to get an attachment order. Its a legal process, but a light one.

dvpower

squod wrote: »

Codology! Are you a member of any of the campaign teams?

What campaign teams are you on about?

dvpower

seamus wrote: »

Some people are under the illusion that if you don't register, your property magically becomes invisible and the government don't know that it's there so they can't tax it.

From the 'If I close my eyes, no one can see me' school of thought.

Cantona's Collars

cowzerp wrote: »

My house like most peoples is worth fook all compared to what we paid and what we owe for it-and then these chumps want a tax for the privilidge in us been trapped for probably our whole lives in a house that was meant to be a starter for us till we could move to a bigger nicer house etc

We already pay for Bins which is basically a household charge and me and my partner are tax compliant and pay a fortune on taxes for to run our cars which we need for to work to pay more taxes.

This is not about the 100 euro, its the principle

I wish people would get some balls and just say NO, NO More ripping the piiss out of us.

Tax the Bankers that got us in trouble, Legally look at getting money back from some of these Bankers who paiud themselves massive bonuses and wages, reduce the extortionate wages TD's are on, Increase income tax on the very high earners-cut down on the amount of TD's and stop givinmg mates pointless jobs in the seanad, We're a country of wimps that always bows down to been giving the bare minimum and been scammed

The people who need it most are the people hardest hit, Millionaires will be paying the same 100 euro that poor people will, it's all a big joke.

You have just summed up how the vast majority of people in this country feel and their reasons for non payment.
The government want me to pay more money while my local FG TD gives himself a €17k a year pay rise!!!

Chipboard

golfwallah wrote: »

Simple computer program to calculate penalties and fines - it's not unprecedented or rocket science.

If it remains unpaid, there will be a charge on your property when it comes to be transferred (on sale, death, etc.) - "You will require a Certificate of Discharge when selling/transferring ownership of a property".

Again, won't cause the court system to be clogged up or the fall of the Government.

Rubbish.

Anyone (incl the govt) who wants to get a judgment against another person or a company has to go to court to get it - thats why its called a judgment.

Its not a straightforward process and you can't get multiple judgments in one sitting.

foxcoverteddy

so when did the td's give themselves a raise? can't remember anythin g about that, is it a secret or was it swept under the carpet?

smash

dvpower wrote: »

Nobody needs to be prosecuted in order to get an attachment order. Its a legal process, but a light one.

How much do you think the legal fees will be on this compared to the possible income they will produce? :rolleyes:

BostonB

gurramok wrote: »

... income tax will have to be raised to plug the hole....

Would that not be fairer.

donalg1

BostonB wrote: »

Would that not be fairer.

Only if its done right, and only if they cut social welfare at the same time, otherwise you will have the same people getting hit as usual

Cantona's Collars

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

so when did the td's give themselves a raise? can't remember anythin g about that, is it a secret or was it swept under the carpet?

Here's a video of a protest in Enniscorthy after Paul Kehoe awarded himself a raise.A fine example of those in ivory towers who want us to pay out to fund them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAT_HKGqE6k

BostonB

donalg1 wrote: »

Only if its done right, and only if they cut social welfare at the same time, otherwise you will have the same people getting hit as usual

Was the household charge done right? ....

Mr CJ

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is a once off septic tank inspection charge of €5 or €50. If your installation is causing pollution you should fix it, I don't see anything unfair about that. No water charges yet and nobody knows what the property tax will be. So for €105 you can sleep easy for the next 9 months. You did the right thing by paying your taxes to date, take a look at the defaulters list published today to see how much some of the clever ones who tried to get away with it had to pay in the end.

This is complete Bullsht with a capital B!! Stop comparing this to tax evasion its not even close! I am convinced these pro guys are from the government as I would find it hard to believe someone from the public would have the mentality to take up so much of there own time defending some ripoff un-justified tax.