domain name issue

Atlas_IRL · 15-12-2011 4:26pm #1

Hi i own a domain name and ecommerce store for a high street retail store.

Ill give an example of the problem.

Say the domain name is davesshoes.com.

We owned daveshoes.com which someone previously let expire. It is our most searched query in analytics and we would lose hits to people searching for it directly. For a .com do we have legal rights for that domain or is it gone for good? Its stuffed with adwords for fake goods at the moment.

Chet Zar · 15-12-2011 4:39pm

Atlas_IRL wrote: »

Hi i own a domain name and ecommerce store for a high street retail store.

Ill give an example of the problem.

Say the domain name is davesshoes.com.

We owned daveshoes.com which someone previously let expire. It is our most searched query in analytics and we would lose hits to people searching for it directly. For a .com do we have legal rights for that domain or is it gone for good? Its stuffed with adwords for fake goods at the moment.

Since it expired and wasn't re-registered, it's open to anyone else to register with no obligation to its previous owner, unless you can prove that you have a very obvious right to own the domain. For example, I know that Facebook.ie was owned by an Irish company up until relatively recently, until Facebook moved to claim it - and the company gave it up straight away.

So I would imagine it depends on the strength of the case to be made for claiming it back. Could be a case that if you made an offer to the current owners, that it would work out cheaper than trying to claim it by any other potential means.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 15-12-2011 4:53pm

Contact the owner and try to buy it back, they are probably just squatting for a quick buck.

jmcc · 15-12-2011 6:59pm

Chet Zar wrote: »

Since it expired and wasn't re-registered, it's open to anyone else to register with no obligation to its previous owner, unless you can prove that you have a very obvious right to own the domain. For example, I know that Facebook.ie was owned by an Irish company up until relatively recently, until Facebook moved to claim it - and the company gave it up straight away.

Facebook took legal action to recover the facebook.ie domain name:
http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2007/die2007-0009.html

In my opinion, the registrant in question gave up the domain because of Facebook's legal action.

Could be a case that if you made an offer to the current owners, that it would work out cheaper than trying to claim it by any other potential means.

Probably the best solution.

Regards...jmcc

wylo · 15-12-2011 7:36pm

If it's dot com you'll have to buy it. Offer them 80 euro or something, if they say no then just say you're not interested, they'll probably change their mind then.

If it's dot ie, you've rights over it if you own the company name.

jmcc · 15-12-2011 8:34pm

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

Contact the owner and try to buy it back, they are probably just squatting for a quick buck.

If they have PPC advertising on it, then they are probably using it to make money from the trafffic. This is somewhat different to ordinary cybersquatting which essentially squats on a domain name in order to sell it the brand owner. How much it would cost to recover really depends on the amount of traffic the domain is getting and the money the new registrant is making from it.

Regards...jmcc

Chet Zar · 15-12-2011 8:41pm

jmcc wrote: »

Facebook took legal action to recover the facebook.ie domain name:
http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2007/die2007-0009.html

In my opinion, the registrant in question gave up the domain because of Facebook's legal action.

Probably the best solution.

Regards...jmcc

Aha, interesting didn't see that WIPO action, don't think they mentioned it in the article I ready, but it could have.

In that case, they gave it up because they had no choice.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 15-12-2011 8:56pm

jmcc wrote: »

If they have PPC advertising on it, then they are probably using it to make money from the trafffic. This is somewhat different to ordinary cybersquatting which essentially squats on a domain name in order to sell it the brand owner. How much it would cost to recover really depends on the amount of traffic the domain is getting and the money the new registrant is making from it.

Regards...jmcc

Not really, they are squatting on the domain to make money, offer them more than they can make on ads and they will move on.

jmcc · 15-12-2011 9:39pm

Chet Zar wrote: »

Aha, interesting didn't see that WIPO action, don't think they mentioned it in the article I ready, but it could have.

It was not the first time that a company in Ireland registered the .ie of a known brand (I remember ebay.ie being snagged by ebid.ie in the late 1990s.) The process has been streamlined over the years though and it was a classic bad faith registration.

In that case, they gave it up because they had no choice.

They would have lost it anyway.

Regards...jmcc

Chet Zar · 15-12-2011 9:39pm

jmcc wrote: »

If they have PPC advertising on it, then they are probably using it to make money from the trafffic. This is somewhat different to ordinary cybersquatting which essentially squats on a domain name in order to sell it the brand owner. How much it would cost to recover really depends on the amount of traffic the domain is getting and the money the new registrant is making from it.

Regards...jmcc

Unlikely to be making any money from AdSense, unless the domain has massive traffic. And if it's the kind of domain that would have massive traffic, the OP wouldn't be asking the good folks on humble Boards.ie about it

As Ronan says, most likely a cyber-squatter looking to be made an offer someday.

jmcc · 15-12-2011 9:52pm

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

Not really, they are squatting on the domain to make money, offer them more than they can make on ads and they will move on.

It depends on the domain name. If it is a highly generic domain, then they may not give it up at all. PPC parking is a volume business and you many not be dealing with a cybersquatter with a few domain names. An expired domain name with PPC has a finite lifetime. The main money would be made in the first few months of its reregistration. This is because it hasn't dropped out of search engine indices and directory and website listings. People visting the site will expect to find the old website and when presented with the PPC ads may click on them. As it ages, traffic decreases and, consequently, revenue decreases. For the registrant, if it makes anything over the registration fee, it makes a profit. And it may not even be registered by someone who has registered it for just PPC parking. Some registrars will park their unused/undeveloped domains on PPC parking pages (Godaddy does this). It is a lot more complex a business than it would first appear.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc · 15-12-2011 9:59pm

Chet Zar wrote: »

Unlikely to be making any money from AdSense, unless the domain has massive traffic.

That's the thing that people not in the domain business don't seem to understand. In order for a domain to be profitable on PPC, it has to make more than its registration fee for the year. Some domains could cover that in a day. Others could take a few months. It is a volume business though and as I explained earlier, you may not be dealing with a cybersquatter with a handful of domains.

Regards...jmcc

Chet Zar · 15-12-2011 10:26pm

jmcc wrote: »

That's the thing that people not in the domain business don't seem to understand. In order for a domain to be profitable on PPC, it has to make more than its registration fee for the year. Some domains could cover that in a day. Others could take a few months. It is a volume business though and as I explained earlier, you may not be dealing with a cybersquatter with a handful of domains.

Regards...jmcc

I'm not 'in the domain business', but I do understand

To make any money with AdSense, you need a lot of traffic. If the squatter's registration fee for the year for this domain is €6, then yes if he makes €7 on AdSense, he's made a profit. But he still obviously hasn't made any real money from squatting on the site and using AdSense on it.

Edit: true though that if the guy has a bunch of domains, it's then a numbers business, and he might be making a nice few dollars.

Trojan · 15-12-2011 10:40pm

If this is an important domain to you, I wouldn't let them know just how important. Contact from a hotmail or gmail account. Don't use the same name as the original registrant. My starting offer would be $50, $100 or $150 depending on just how good the domain is from a generic keyword point of view. Use a domain escrow service to do the transfer, and offer to pay the fees.

mneylon · 15-12-2011 10:42pm

I'd always recommend using an agent to try and acquire the domain for you.

Contacting the registrant directly might seem like the obvious thing to do, but if it's obvious to them that you have an "interest" in the domain then they'd hike the price up.

If you need assistance please feel free to email me directly (michele @ blacknight.ie)

Michele

jmcc · 15-12-2011 10:44pm

Chet Zar wrote: »

I'm not 'in the domain business', but I do understand To make any money with AdSense, you need a lot of traffic.

Another wonderful fallacy.

You don't need a lot of traffic if the niche is right. The only thing you need is traffic that converts.

Edit: true though that if the guy has a bunch of domains, it's then a numbers business, and he might be making a nice few dollars.

In the domain business, a bunch of domains could be measured in the tens of thousands of domains. This is the reality that most people never see. Some TLDs can have 20 to 50% of their domains parked on PPC. Much of it will be registrars putting undeveloped domains on PPC but there will be businesses that make money from PPC on numbers of domains, typically generic keyword domains.

Regards...jmcc

Chet Zar · 15-12-2011 10:46pm

Blacknight wrote: »

I'd always recommend using an agent to try and acquire the domain for you.

Contacting the registrant directly might seem like the obvious thing to do, but if it's obvious to them that you have an "interest" in the domain then they'd hike the price up.

If you need assistance please feel free to email me directly (michele @ blacknight.ie)

Michele

Would showing the registrant that you've taken the step of using an agent not give them the impression that you're 'serious' though, and so the risk is that they hike the price?

mneylon · 15-12-2011 10:46pm

jmcc wrote: »

Another wonderful fallacy. You don't need a lot of traffic if the niche is right. The only thing you need is traffic that converts.

So true!

You can have a domain with high traffic and get little or no revenue, or, conversely, get low traffic and high conversions (and profit)

mneylon · 15-12-2011 10:48pm

Chet Zar wrote: »

Would showing the registrant that you've taken the step of using an agent not give them the impression that you're 'serious' though, and so the risk is that they hike the price?

Not really.

It's all relative really.

If the domain is of value to you then you'll have to pay a price to acquire it.

If you use an agent then the seller won't know who wants to acquire it and will be simply transacting with the agent.

Chet Zar · 15-12-2011 11:16pm

jmcc wrote: »

Another wonderful fallacy. You don't need a lot of traffic if the niche is right. The only thing you need is traffic that converts.

What kind of niches do you think convert well?

jmcc wrote: »

In the domain business, a bunch of domains could be measured in the tens of thousands of domains. This is the reality that most people never see. Some TLDs can have 20 to 50% of their domains parked on PPC. Much of it will be registrars putting undeveloped domains on PPC but there will be businesses that make money from PPC on numbers of domains, typically generic keyword domains.

Regards...jmcc

I actually think that's pretty crazy! You see it every time you look for a dotcom - nine times out of ten if it's a decent domain it's already taken just on the off-chance that someone will want to buy it later on. I've always presumed these companies/individuals block purchase these domains - presume there's a script or something they can use? Seems like that should be regulated, but I guess that would take a bit of work to implement..

jmcc · 15-12-2011 11:41pm

Chet Zar wrote: »

What kind of niches do you think convert well?

I wouldn't be an expert on the niches but it would be the ones where the adverts are very closely matched with the content of the site and are of interest to the user. Some product and financial ones are supposed to convert well. Property ones did convert well during the bubble and a lot of property domains and websites popped out around that period - they dropped a few years later though.

I actually think that's pretty crazy! You see it every time you look for a dotcom - nine times out of ten if it's a decent domain it's already taken just on the off-chance that someone will want to buy it later on.

Not nessarily. It means that someone got there first and bought the domain that you, perhaps ten or more years later, want to register. Just because someone beat you to it, it does not follow that they are cybersquatting. What most people don't realise when they see the .com registration figure at about 98.8 million domains is that of those domains, probably only 20 million or less will be actively developed as websites. If you are looking for a generic (poker, pizza, business, insurance etc) single keyword term as a domain name in .com, then it has probably been registered for years.

I've always presumed these companies/individuals block purchase these domains - presume there's a script or something they can use?

Most roll their own but analytics and keywords have a lot to do with it.

Seems like that should be regulated, but I guess that would take a bit of work to implement..

You can have a highly regulated domain with low registration figures or you can have an unregulated domain where matters are settled via a dispute mechanism. The one for the com/net/org and the gTLDs evolved and the process .ie uses is based upon it. However .ie is quite regulated in comparison with .com or .eu. Most TLDs have a dispute mechanism but it can be very expensive as the cost of the dispute is not limited to just the filing charges - expert opinion, research and lawyers are required too.

Regards...jmcc

Atlas_IRL · 16-12-2011 10:50am

I only really thought about the domain again when someone i know told a girl he worked with to check out the site and she typed the other url looking for the site and told him we didnt have a site.

I doubt they are getting much traffic from it, the links are all for fake ugg sites though which doesnt help.

What companies handle the third party domain purchases?

domain name issue

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