Foreigners who come here and don't learn English

Siuin

Dovies wrote: »

I lived in the Middle East for 10 years and cant speak Arabic!

Were you living on a compound?
I was in Israel for 3 months before I could have a basic conversation, and since I got back from another 3 months I can have a pretty reasonable chat with kids and explain what I want in shops, banks etc. It's just about putting in the effort and living in an environment where you're surrounded by the language and forced to learn it.

Plazaman

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

I need to rant a little about this.

I live with 3 Spanish people, and about 2 of them don't bother to learn English. They live here and wander along to other houses full of other Spanish people who, similarly, don't learn the language. At night, these same people will spend hours on Skype/MSN chatting with family and friends in Spain.

In other words, WHY ARE THEY HERE!!!!

I can't accuse everyone of this, because I've met some people who have made great efforts and reached a very high level, and bother to get work.

It's p****ing me off at this stage to be honest.

[I'm not against Spanish people, but just the mentality of coming here and not learning]

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

I can speak Spanish, but I refuse to speak it with them because at the start of the year, they told me to speak English as they really want to learn it.

Wait a minute OP, which one is it. They don't want to learn or they do want to learn but your helping in the stonewalling by not speaking English to them.

I was going to say it would be a perfect opportunity for you to learn Spanish but you know it already. I think having a second language is great (people who know three or more are gods in my eyes). I would love to be a cunning linguist but my efforts to learn a second language are twarted by my goldfish like memory.

Having said that I can say "Can I have 3 beers please" in 7 different languages and working on the phrase in Danish at the moment.

djfattony2000

This is the same thing as Irish people going to Australia, moving to Bondi, drinking in Irish Bars with Irish people talking about how they miss Tayto and Barrys tea.

People living abroad will generally gravitate to others from their own country.

I do always think though that you should be able to have a few words of the local language where ever you are.

Antomus Prime

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Does that mean all our Tomo's; Anto's and Johno's are of Eye-talian descent!?! :eek::eek::eek:

And there was me thinking they have no culture and know nothing more than Dutch Gold; Johnny Blue and Celtic!

Eh.... I resent that!! lol

MrPain wrote: »

So is Na–Dené and Algic considered the Native languages in the US?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-Dene_languages

"Na-Dene is a Native American language family which includes at least the Athabaskan languages, Eyak, and Tlingit languages"

Pretty sure the answer to your question is covered there!!

veloc123

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

I need to rant a little about this.

I live with 3 Spanish people, and about 2 of them don't bother to learn English. They live here and wander along to other houses full of other Spanish people who, similarly, don't learn the language. At night, these same people will spend hours on Skype/MSN chatting with family and friends in Spain.

In other words, WHY ARE THEY HERE!!!!

I can't accuse everyone of this, because I've met some people who have made great efforts and reached a very high level, and bother to get work.

It's p****ing me off at this stage to be honest.

[I'm not against Spanish people, but just the mentality of coming here and not learning]

Look at Manuel from Fawlty Towers he blended in seamlessly and he was always speaking Spanglish....que...ok...see/si...

Richard

Doc Ruby wrote: »

. And despite the best efforts of our beloved nearest neighbours, most of the people in this country are the same as have been here since the ice receded.

They must be getting on a bit, then.

Richard

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Many people would argue that English is a foreign language here, though.

They'd be wrong, then.

The fact that people speak it widely doesn't make it less foreign. Many people also speak Spanish or Russian or German or whatever.

Yes it does.

Also, check your constitution.

suicide_circus

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I couldn't care less whether they learn it and kinda understand why they wouldn't bother. They are so submersed in Spanish culture while here I doubt they are planning on staying here permanently. But from my own point of view I'd want to make the effort so I could understand the new society I'm in more. Plus you'll feel more included in day to day things. Not to mention it's English they'd be learning which is a major world language. It's not like they'd be learning an obscure language which has no benefit to them in the future.

Yes but this is After Hours, where criticising any foreign person or minority in Ireland is seen as a heinous crime which will bring ridicule and insults down on your head. Here's a simple reminder; white Irish person - BAD. Everyone else - GOOD.

stoneill

Ráfaga con la orina.

Tomk1

Sounds to me they are putting money into the Irish ecconomy, so it's their loss, our gain.

By extrapolating some of the posts = anyone who's going to that Euro-football thing should allso learn the lauguage of every country they plan on seeing a match, else they shouldn't be allowed to go.
Now that would be terrr...i..ble.

Math one of two universal launguages

Robdude

I don't understand how immigrants steal jobs or how they can live in Ireland without contributing to Ireland's economy.

I'm an immigrant....and while I do speak English, I certainly haven't gone out of my way to pick up an Irish accent or use Irish coloquisms. I don't have any great desire to adopt the Irish culture; I still don't much care about Irish sports or eat Irish food.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

These large familes for foregin speakers certainly have *someone* who can translate for them, as they are able to meet the basic requirements of immigration, working, filling out taxes, getting a lease, etc, etc....

If I were 50-60 years old and moved with my large family to a new country with a new language; I probably wouldn't bother learning it, to be perfectly honest. What's the point? There are plenty of people who speak my language around me that I can talk to, and even with years of training, I'd still be very difficult to understand and have a strong accent from my native tongue. Over time, I'm sure I'd pick up some basics; but I wouldn't go out of my way to learn it.

It's very common to see a five year old who can speak both languages fluently and who speaks the new language better than the parents and grandparents. But in one or two generations, sometimes more, the old language is all but forgotten and the children sound no different than native speakers.

The language someone speaks really doesn't impact me in any way. They should be free to speak whatever language they want. As long as they manage to read the required legal/government papers and comply with the law - who cares? They don't have an obligation to strike up a conversation with you, in the language you want, when you want it.

Besides, if everyone who came to Ireland learned to language of the land - wouldn't everyone here be speaking Irish and not English?

Finally, I really don't get the whole 'Immigrants come here and don't put money into the economy' thing. It doesn't make any sense. I'm an immigrant. Not only do I pay *the same* taxes as an Irishman doing the same job as me - I actually *PAY MORE*. I have to pay application fees, and registration fees every 1-2 years (depending on which thing we're talking about). Not only do I pay more, I *GET LESS*. I'm specificially excluded from collecting the same benefits that my co-workers are eligible for.

For example....

If tomorrow the company I work for shuts down.....my Irish coworkers can continue to stay in Ireland and even go on the dole. But not me. I'm ineligible for such social benefits. In fact, I have only a specific number of months to find a new job (and pay the 1000 euro application fee, again).

Every euro I earn is taxed. Just like everyone else in Ireland. That money goes straight to the government of Ireland. And it's a significant percentage of my wages. How does an Immigrant work in Ireland and *not* contibute? If you are talking about illegal/undocumented workers who don't pay taxes - that's a valid thing to complain about; but that's not immigrants. Anyone can work under-the-table.

And, every time I spend money, it's taxed too. Don't you think these immigrants are buying things like food? Certainly they are buying it in Ireland. That means they are paying VAT on everything they purchase. Hell, isn't there a 20% tax on rental income? That means 20% of my rent each month goes to my landlord, who in turn, pays it straight to the Irish government.

From what I understand, there are only two legal types of immigrants in Ireland - NonEU and EU. NonEU immigrants can't immigrate without already having a job, and the Irish government dictates the requirements and number of immigrants that are allowed. The labour-market needs test makes it impossible to legally hire an immigrant for a job when there are qualified Irish applicants. That means every NonEU immigrant you see is working a job that the Irish government felt there were no Irish candidates to fill.

EU immigrants are welcome because of the terms of being a member of the EU. It gives other people rights here, but it also gives Irish rights elsewhere. It's pretty hypocritical to join something and then complain about the terms you've agreed to.

So, all I can say is; I don't get the anti-immigrant sentiment I keep seeing and hearing in Ireland. Am I missing something? They work jobs that the Irish workforce has shortages of qualified labour, they pay more in taxes and recieve less benefits. How is that not a positive for Ireland?

A0

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

Foreigners who come here and don't learn English

... should be sent back home straight away.
And there should be a mandatory rule for foreigners willing to live (migrate) in Ireland (or England, America, Australia): they should provide a certificate of English proficiency (i.e., IELTS, TOEFL, etc.) or undertake English courses in the country they want to live in and get a certificate from these courses, attesting they can speak, understand and communicate with others in English.
Regarding the accent, nobody cares, you can't get rid of it, and it's not a problem at all.

getz

A0 wrote: »

... should be sent back home straight away.
And there should be a mandatory rule for foreigners willing to live (migrate) in Ireland (or England, America, Australia): they should provide a certificate of English proficiency (i.e., IELTS, TOEFL, etc.) or undertake English courses in the country they want to live in and get a certificate from these courses, attesting they can speak, understand and communicate with others in English.
Regarding the accent, nobody cares, you can't get rid of it, and it's not a problem at all.

is not that only for citizenship

A0

getz wrote: »

is not that only for citizenship

Yes, in some countries but I'm not sure if it's really applied and mandatory.

It should be a rule for anyone who wants to migrate (even for only 2-5years).
This rule being only for citizenship, opens the door to have migrants unable to say a word in English moving to English speaking countries and living there, speaking in public area, complaining about the country, etc. and this in their own language.
These courses / training offer the possibility to study English at different levels. Obviously, you can't ask a foreigner applying for a job as cleaner to undertake an Academic English course, however having an excellent English is vital for a foreigner applying for a job as doctor-teacher, etc.

getz

A0 wrote: »

Yes, in some countries but I'm not sure if it's really applied and mandatory.

It should be a rule for anyone who wants to migrate (even for only 2-5years).
This rule being only for citizenship, opens the door to have migrants unable to say a word in English moving to English speaking countries and living there, speaking in public area, complaining about the country, etc. and this in their own language.
These courses / training offer the possibility to study English at different levels. Obviously, you can't ask a foreigner applying for a job as cleaner to undertake an Academic English course, however having an excellent English is vital for a foreigner applying for a job as doctor-teacher, etc.

i had a friend[this is a few years ago]who went to university and has a degree in english, he married a american girl,and took out american citizenship,i met him again about 3 years ago,he told me to get his citizenship ,he had to go to school to learn english

ShadowHearth

Robdude wrote: »

I don't understand how immigrants steal jobs or how they can live in Ireland without contributing to Ireland's economy.

I'm an immigrant....and while I do speak English, I certainly haven't gone out of my way to pick up an Irish accent or use Irish coloquisms. I don't have any great desire to adopt the Irish culture; I still don't much care about Irish sports or eat Irish food.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

These large familes for foregin speakers certainly have *someone* who can translate for them, as they are able to meet the basic requirements of immigration, working, filling out taxes, getting a lease, etc, etc....

If I were 50-60 years old and moved with my large family to a new country with a new language; I probably wouldn't bother learning it, to be perfectly honest. What's the point? There are plenty of people who speak my language around me that I can talk to, and even with years of training, I'd still be very difficult to understand and have a strong accent from my native tongue. Over time, I'm sure I'd pick up some basics; but I wouldn't go out of my way to learn it.

It's very common to see a five year old who can speak both languages fluently and who speaks the new language better than the parents and grandparents. But in one or two generations, sometimes more, the old language is all but forgotten and the children sound no different than native speakers.

The language someone speaks really doesn't impact me in any way. They should be free to speak whatever language they want. As long as they manage to read the required legal/government papers and comply with the law - who cares? They don't have an obligation to strike up a conversation with you, in the language you want, when you want it.

Besides, if everyone who came to Ireland learned to language of the land - wouldn't everyone here be speaking Irish and not English?

Finally, I really don't get the whole 'Immigrants come here and don't put money into the economy' thing. It doesn't make any sense. I'm an immigrant. Not only do I pay *the same* taxes as an Irishman doing the same job as me - I actually *PAY MORE*. I have to pay application fees, and registration fees every 1-2 years (depending on which thing we're talking about). Not only do I pay more, I *GET LESS*. I'm specificially excluded from collecting the same benefits that my co-workers are eligible for.

For example....

If tomorrow the company I work for shuts down.....my Irish coworkers can continue to stay in Ireland and even go on the dole. But not me. I'm ineligible for such social benefits. In fact, I have only a specific number of months to find a new job (and pay the 1000 euro application fee, again).

Every euro I earn is taxed. Just like everyone else in Ireland. That money goes straight to the government of Ireland. And it's a significant percentage of my wages. How does an Immigrant work in Ireland and *not* contibute? If you are talking about illegal/undocumented workers who don't pay taxes - that's a valid thing to complain about; but that's not immigrants. Anyone can work under-the-table.

And, every time I spend money, it's taxed too. Don't you think these immigrants are buying things like food? Certainly they are buying it in Ireland. That means they are paying VAT on everything they purchase. Hell, isn't there a 20% tax on rental income? That means 20% of my rent each month goes to my landlord, who in turn, pays it straight to the Irish government.

From what I understand, there are only two legal types of immigrants in Ireland - NonEU and EU. NonEU immigrants can't immigrate without already having a job, and the Irish government dictates the requirements and number of immigrants that are allowed. The labour-market needs test makes it impossible to legally hire an immigrant for a job when there are qualified Irish applicants. That means every NonEU immigrant you see is working a job that the Irish government felt there were no Irish candidates to fill.

EU immigrants are welcome because of the terms of being a member of the EU. It gives other people rights here, but it also gives Irish rights elsewhere. It's pretty hypocritical to join something and then complain about the terms you've agreed to.

So, all I can say is; I don't get the anti-immigrant sentiment I keep seeing and hearing in Ireland. Am I missing something? They work jobs that the Irish workforce has shortages of qualified labour, they pay more in taxes and recieve less benefits. How is that not a positive for Ireland?

i am immigrant myself and i do agree with you, but you skiped one part of immigrants, which were the target of this thread ( i guess).


Immigrants who interact with other english speaking people, but newer bother to learn the language.

i am immigrant myself and i am very happy that i was aloud to work and live here. Even if we pay taxes like everyone else, the least i could do: LEARN THE FLIPING ENGLISH at least on basic level.

I work with other nationalities too. Bosses love to hire brazilians or some polish people ( who barely speak english ) for lower jobs as they dont need to pay big money to them and they can play with roasters and working hours per weeks ( 1 week 40 hours, next week 5 hours).

i work/worked with few other national girls who just dont bother to learn english. Now i hate when this happens:
-I need X and Y, please, can you do this? you understand, right?
-Yes, YES! OKAY!
*nothing happens
-Sorry, i really need this now, customers are waiting, can you do X and Y now.
-Yes, yes, okay!
*nothing happens
-I want to slap your tities and make sweet love to your anus on this kitchen table!
-Yes, yes, OKAY!
*/facepalm.

tfitzgerald

I think if you come here you should try and learn the language . I also think if you live here you should dress like Irish I hate to see the people walking around in sandals and robes like as if their in the middle of the desert

getz

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think if you come here you should try and learn the language . I also think if you live here you should dress like Irish I hate to see the people walking around in sandals and robes like as if their in the middle of the desert

WHAT green suits and wellies

Siuin

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think if you come here you should try and learn the language . I also think if you live here you should dress like Irish I hate to see the people walking around in sandals and robes like as if their in the middle of the desert

Uggs and trackie bottoms on the lot of yeh!
Maybe we should rename them all Mary and Sean too

Wibbs

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I also think if you live here you should dress like Irish I hate to see the people walking around in sandals and robes like as if their in the middle of the desert

Their what? Anyway if you dress like you're in the "middle of the desert" in this country I call that brave, damned tough or foolish. Fair play on the first two.

I know a Muslim chap who dresses in such a manner and he tells me it's Arab dress on top, decadent western thermals underneath.

Nodin

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think if you come here you should try and learn the language . I also think if you live here you should dress like Irish I hate to see the people walking around in sandals and robes like as if their in the middle of the desert

Absolutely. A tracksuit and a pair of track shoes is not a significant financial investment to make in citizenship.

tfitzgerald

getz wrote: »

WHAT green suits and wellies

I don't know what you are smoking but I suggest you change your brand. I believe when in Rome

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Terry

"Hermano" means "Brother".

Dudess

'Que pasa mi hermano' means 'what up my brother'.

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think if you come here you should try and learn the language . I also think if you live here you should dress like Irish I hate to see the people walking around in sandals and robes like as if their in the middle of the desert

Moe: You know what aggravazes me about them immigants? They want all the benefits of living here but can't be bothered learning themselves the language.
Homer: Yeah, those are exactly my sentimonies...

Nodin

Something something Esse something something Bario Something something passport.

Dudess

Nodin wrote: »

Something something Esse something something Bario Something something passport.

Yeah, you said it Barne.

losthorizon

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

I need to rant a little about this.

I live with 3 Spanish people, and about 2 of them don't bother to learn English. They live here and wander along to other houses full of other Spanish people who, similarly, don't learn the language. At night, these same people will spend hours on Skype/MSN chatting with family and friends in Spain.

In other words, WHY ARE THEY HERE!!!!

I can't accuse everyone of this, because I've met some people who have made great efforts and reached a very high level, and bother to get work.

It's p****ing me off at this stage to be honest.

[I'm not against Spanish people, but just the mentality of coming here and not learning]

What about Irish people who live here and dont bother learning Irish? :rolleyes:

kazul

KeithAFC wrote: »

Seeing how liberal society is now in the UK and the ROI, they can come over, take jobs, not pay the money back into the system and off back home they go.

How exactly does one go about "taking" a job? See a job you like and say "I'll be having that, thank you very much"?

And "not pay the money back into the system". What does that mean? The money from the jobs they "take" should be paid back to "the system"?

Do you understand how PAYE and PRSI function?

tfitzgerald

Veles wrote: »

si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi tbh.

Exactly

dMaN24

As a Swedish person i clearly find all of this appauling, as much as i can't be bothered to read all pages because...

Out with all the foreigners!

(Am i doing this right... guys?)

Dudess

Other than the burka, why give a fuk what people are wearing?
"Dress like Irish"? So clothing from American and European companies is Irish dress?
Some people just get freaked by something a bit different.

OctavarIan

There are a lot of pots calling kettles black in this thread.

dMaN24

OctavarIan wrote: »

There are a lot of pots calling kettles black in this thread.

And for those of us not havig a kettle i call on capitalism.

They come here and take all our kettles now? :mad:

opinion guy

except......they didn't tuk ur jaabs did they -they're not working

OP grow up and tell your flatmates you feel excluded when they speak Spanish all the time and ask them to include you more instead of starting immigrant bashing flame wars on boards

Nodin

opinion guy wrote: »

except......they didn't tuk ur jaabs did they -they're not working

OP grow up and tell your flatmates you feel excluded when they speak Spanish all the time and ask them to include you more instead of starting immigrant bashing flame wars on boards

Que?

opinion guy

Nodin wrote: »

Que?

Isn't this what that threads about from the OP - him being pissed off at his spanish flatmates not speaking english.
Forgive me I didn't read all 10 pages of quasi-racist drivel

kazul

kazul wrote: »

How exactly does one go about "taking" a job? See a job you like and say "I'll be having that, thank you very much"?

And "not pay the money back into the system". What does that mean? The money from the jobs they "take" should be paid back to "the system"?

Do you understand how PAYE and PRSI function?

Lots of people work illegally. I know loads of foreigners here in London who aren't paying any tax.

As for people not bothering to learn any English, I think it's annoying because they're putting other people out all the time. You're making it difficult for other people to explain things to you, you're wasting everyone's time at the supermarket, the doctor's surgery etc while the cashier or receptionist tries to explain something using sign language. Unless you truly stay indoors all the time and never use any public services and never go shopping, you're a burden on others. I'm mortified when I go somewhere for 1-2 months and can't understand the local language, I can't understand how people can happily live like that for years on end.

Don't even get me started on people working in shops who can't speak or understand English properly. Especially the ones who look at you as if you're a moron because you didn't understand the ridiculously fast, incomprehensible question they just fired at you. 'Yewwannedmyeonayzeenthesanwee?' (Did you want mayonnaise on your sandwich?) I'm generally a pretty patient person, but for God's sake, if you're serving the public, you need to speak English. Or at least not have a stinking attitude when people keep asking you to repeat yourself.

opinion guy

Willow Icy Salesman wrote: »

'Yewwannedmyeonayzeenthesanwee?' (Did you want mayonnaise on your sandwich?) I'm generally a pretty patient person, but for God's sake, if you're serving the public, you need to speak English. Or at least not have a stinking attitude when people keep asking you to repeat yourself.

I had this experience in the Post Office the other day. Except the woman wasn't foreign - she was a great biy how'r'ye Dub. Could not understand a thing she said. Then gave me lots of attitude when I asked her to repeat herself.

Poor customer service is nothing to do with nationality.

44leto

How about people who live here and wont learn "foreigner".

It is usually to their disadvantage that they don't speak english. I lived and worked in Germany and i haven't a clue how to talk in that lingo. But I noticed when there some Germans had the cheek never to have learned English.

Nodin

44leto wrote: »

How about people who live here and wont learn "foreigner".

It is usually to their disadvantage that they don't speak english. I lived and worked in Germany and i haven't a clue how to talk in that lingo. But I noticed when there some Germans had the cheek never to have learned English.

They're still Nazis?

And they own us. Sweet Jesus.......

kazul

Willow Icy Salesman wrote: »

Lots of people work illegally. I know loads of foreigners here in London who aren't paying any tax.

I bet the natives would never dream of doing that.
Have you reported any of these offenders to the authorities?

Nodin

kazul wrote: »

I bet the natives would never dream of doing that.
........

Jaysus no. Sure the word nixer is French in origin.

Dudess

Wrecks my head when buying something from a petrol station at night and having to speak to someone with next to no English through the hatch thingie. Very frustrating when trying to describe the thing you want. But I don't blame them, it's their penny-pinching employer's fault.

opinion guy

opinion guy wrote: »

I had this experience in the Post Office the other day. Except the woman wasn't foreign - she was a great biy how'r'ye Dub. Could not understand a thing she said. Then gave me lots of attitude when I asked her to repeat herself.

Poor customer service is nothing to do with nationality.

So what? I didn't say only foreigners give poor customer service. I said I'm sick of not understanding people who barely speak English and worse, people who can't understand me. I'm always told that I have the clearest, most neutral English accent possible. I'm an English teacher. I spend all day, every day, talking to foreign students. I know how to avoid using 'difficult' vocab, idioms or phrasal verbs. I know how to grade my language for non-natives. If you can't understand me, you shouldn't be serving the public. I can only imagine the trouble other people have.

44leto

Nodin wrote: »

They're still Nazis?

And they own us. Sweet Jesus.......

No they're not, I don't care what anyone says, lovely and polite people,

Nodin

Dudess wrote: »

Wrecks my head when buying something from a petrol station at night and having to speak to someone with next to no English through the hatch thingie. Very frustrating when trying to describe the thing you want. But I don't blame them, it's their penny-pinching employer's fault.

'that fucken yoke'
'.....'
'no, The Fucken Yoke. There.'
'you mean...?
'That Fucken Yoke. Not That Fucken Thing. The fucken Yoke In Fucken Front Of it'

kazul

Willow Icy Salesman wrote: »

So what?
I'm an English teacher.

I spend all day, every day, talking to foreign students.

If you can't understand me, you shouldn't be serving the public.

I bet you're popular with your students.

Johro

Stomme buitenlanders..

Nodin

44leto wrote: »

No they're not, I don't care what anyone says, lovely and polite people,

The Germans?

The same people that expect states to which they've lent money to display fiscal responsibility? Those ones?

I think not. As soon as you tourists backs are turned its on with the Pickelhaube and a practice scoot around in the Panzer.