Overweight Musicians Appreciation Thread

rcaz

Android 666 wrote: »

I didn't write the ad and I wasn't particularly interested in giving you a hard time about it.

Then why do you keep badgering after every explanation he makes to your questions?

A lot of this discussion is really idealised. People saying that musicianship should obviously be the most important thing in music here, yes of course it should, but we're talking about the music industry here, aren't we? Since when do they put musical proficiency and integrity top of the priority list?

Boneitis has an agenda he's working to, a pretty realistic and straightforward one. I don't know if people are missing the point or deliberately ignoring the point for the sake of a discussion... But I get his logic behind all of this, a lot of it is pretty apparent.

I don't mind threads going a bit off topic if they're interesting and constructive, but can we stop dragging this one off the rails just to challenge Boneitis' thoughts on how to work in the music industry?

boneitis

TheMutations wrote: »

Actually its not obvious as I only know a few details of your situation.

A good management team is going to give you options, ie give you a list of people to recommend and to audition. They are going to recommend competent players and players who look the part. You still have control over who you choose, presumably on how you gel as people and musicians.

That's because you've be typing, not reading. There's dozens of posts in two threads clearly explaining my position.

Android 666

El Pr0n wrote: »

Then why do you keep badgering after every explanation he makes to your questions?

I said I wasn't interested in giving him a hard time but every snotty rebuttal I got and an inability to understand what I was getting at originally wore me down. I understand where he's coming from but he fails to see how he can be misconstrued. I'm sure though with his winning people skills and his love of the overweight he'll make it far...

boneitis

Android 666 wrote: »

I said I wasn't interested in giving him a hard time but every snotty rebuttal I got and an inability to understand what I was getting at originally wore me down. I understand where he's coming from but he fails to see how he can be misconstrued. I'm sure though with his winning people skills and his love of the overweight he'll make it far...

It's only misconstrue-able if you're not paying attention.

You may think I'm snotty, but you started this by putting words in my mouth.

Lot's of folks come onto these threads, make false statements, then get whiny when I defend my position by pointing out they are misstating me, or pointing out if they bothered to read the threads in question all of their questions would be answered.

Ask yourself why the mods repeatedly have to come on to these threads and point out that you and others are essentially harassing me and making false claims about my position...

Why would they have to do that?

They seem to understand my position... are they just smarter than you and the others who act like you?? I'd bet not! I'd guess they simply bothered to read the threads.

So again, as I have repeatedly said, again, please read the thread before replying.

TheMutations

boneitis wrote: »

That's because you've be typing, not reading. There's dozens of posts in two threads clearly explaining my position.

On the contrary I've read most of your posts. Now I don't remember every post word for word but then I don't have a photographic memory unfortunately, but I do seem to recall you mentioning a record company or management team offering a musician.

"Ever been on a major label? I have. I have sat in meetings where musicians were thrust on me based on looks."

boneitis

TheMutations wrote: »

On the contrary I've read most of your posts. Now I don't remember every post word for word but then I don't have a photographic memory unfortunately, but I do seem to recall you mentioning a record company or management team offering a bassist.

I'd be less concerned about photographic memory and more concern about the fact that we discussed this aspect about 10 minutes ago. And I explained it to you, about 10 minutes ago.

If you HAD read the posts you wouldn't have said I am looking for style over substance. Unless you're a troll.

That's one example.

Another example is asking why I didn't just ask management to help. That was previously explained. And yet you missed it.

Like I said, how do Mods not miss these posts, and you do...? It's a mystery.

TheMutations

I assure you I'm not a troll and find the discussion interesting as I'm sure do others. I'm certainly not rude either. Which post did you explain about management not helping? Was it this thread or the other?

Android 666

boneitis wrote: »

It's only misconstrue-able if you're not paying attention.

You may think I'm snotty, but you started this by putting words in my mouth.

Lot's of folks come onto these threads, make false statements, then get whiny when I defend my position by pointing out they are misstating me, or pointing out if they bothered to read the threads in question all of their questions would be answered.

Ask yourself why the mods repeatedly have to come on to these threads and point out that you and others are essentially harassing me and making false claims about my position...

Why would they have to do that?

They seem to understand my position... are they just smarter than you and the others who act like you?? I'd bet not! I'd guess they simply bothered to read the threads.

So again, as I have repeatedly said, again, please read the thread before replying.

For the final time I did not put words in your mouth, I did not write that ad. You are the one that stated the person would be judged on looks with no mention of competency of the individual. No?

You have stated that bands have been told to ditch the uglies by major labels - I sure that is true. When I asked if any of these bands had been successful after jettisoning their unloved you told me the had, stating one person had fired his band 4 times and been very successful but you couldn't name him for fear of being exposed. Honestly if he is very well known I don't know how this could be an issue for you.

I understand you're very eager to succeed and you'll do everything you can to make that happen by tailoring your band and your music for mass appeal. I understand that image is important to a band - I have never said otherwise but you're accusing me of harassing you for what? Pointing out how you could be misconstrued? Asking you who was actually successful from ditching their fatties?

rcaz

TheMutations wrote: »

I assure you I'm not a troll and find the discussion interesting as I'm sure do others. I'm certainly not rude either. Which post did you explain about management not helping? Was it this thread or the other?

:

boneitis wrote: »

The point is having control.

If we find a candidate that's perfect we avoid having someone thrust on us.

rcaz

Android 666 wrote: »

Honestly if he is very well known I don't know how this could be an issue for you.

He's said so already. He's in a band looking for a new bassist for a real industry career, who knows a famous person who's done that and is successful. OP doesn't want to give enough evidence for people to figure out who he is. Reasonable to think that someone in the industry would know the 'international man of mystery' as you said, would also know a guy looking for a new bassist for a band, and be able to connect the dots.

Malice

Android 666 wrote: »

No, but you'll want to know that it's in good condition. Your analogy would mean that people would be asking for bass players with hands and a head. He never expressed what level of proficiency the bass player might need.

I see you only want to address my analogy, not the statement that it should be taken as a given that competency on the instrument is expected. I'll take it that you actually agree with me and are just arguing for the sake of it.

TheMutations wrote: »

If I were in a band that were being courted by a major label the first thing I would be emphasis would be the player's ability and competency. I think its somewhat important.

It's not clear from your post whether you're disagreeing with me but for the record I believe the player's ability is vital but it's just so fundamental to the whole situation that it surely doesn't need spelling out. Should the original ad have also said that the player should have two arms and if so would we then have legions of posters giving out to boneitis about being unfair to disabled people?

boneitis

Android 666 wrote: »

For the final time I did not put words in your mouth, I did not write that ad. You are the one that stated the person would be judged on looks with no mention of competency of the individual. No?

You have stated that bands have been told to ditch the uglies by major labels - I sure that is true. When I asked if any of these bands had been successful after jettisoning their unloved you told me the had, stating one person had fired his band 4 times and been very successful but you couldn't name him for fear of being exposed. Honestly if he is very well known I don't know how this could be an issue for you.

I understand you're very eager to succeed and you'll do everything you can to make that happen by tailoring your band and your music for mass appeal. I understand that image is important to a band - I have never said otherwise but you're accusing me of harassing you for what? Pointing out how you could be misconstrued? Asking you who was actually successful from ditching their fatties?

This has all now been explained to you by multiple people.

If you don't understand, it's on you.

Debate is good, healthy even, but I'm not going to retype the same answers over and over and over simply because you (wilfully or not) don't "get" the information provided.

All the info you need is in these two threads.

Android 666

El Pr0n wrote: »

He's said so already. He's in a band looking for a new bassist for a real industry career, who knows a famous person who's done that and is successful. OP doesn't want to give enough evidence for people to figure out who he is. Reasonable to think that someone in the industry would know the 'international man of mystery' as you said, would also know a guy looking for a new bassist for a band, and be able to connect the dots.

Fair enough, I'll concede that point. I think I'll take my leave now. All this talk of fat slobs is making me feel dirty…

TheMutations

El Pr0n wrote: »

:

Thanks.

Surely working with the highly competent management team would ensure a higher level of control over who boneitis gets to pick, then the route they are using to find a bass player. Like I said before a a good management team is going to know a lot of people who are suitable for their band, both in musical ability and appearance.

Its more likely that they will want boneitis band to succeed and therefore offer them players that would suit their style and personality. They will offer a choice . The band still gets to choose the bass player, still has control.

I'm assuming, of course, that Boneitis is working with a management team that is highly competent as they did mention it in the other thread.

boneitis

TheMutations wrote: »

Thanks.

Surely working with the highly competent management team would ensure a higher level of control over who boneitis gets to pick, then the route they are using to find a bass player. Like I said before a a good management team is going to know a lot of people who are suitable for their band, both in musical ability and appearance.

Its more likely that they will want boneitis band to succeed and therefore offer them players that would suit their style and personality. They will offer a choice . The band still gets to choose the bass player, still has control.

I'm assuming, of course, that Boneitis is working with a management team that is highly competent as they did mention it in the other thread.

I assume you are a troll at this point because, you clearly admit you're just guessing AND you clearly want to argue with someone who is NOT guessing.

I have been through the process and I can TELL you there's no need to guess. Having a third party choose a band member for you, even having them be involved in the process, isn't a "freeing" experience.

Once mgmt gets involved they want resolution. They are business folks at the core, thank god, and this means they expect one of their "solutions" to be viable. If it's not, then the pressure is immense.

I'd rather, and why this is so confusing to you, I don't understand, but... I would rather be the master of my fate... as much as possible... and try and solve my own problems.. as much as possible.

There are also other financial and legal implications, but this isn't the place to discuss those realities.

At least I'm not going to.

rcaz

TheMutations wrote: »

Thanks.

Surely working with the highly competent management team would ensure a higher level of control over who boneitis gets to pick, then the route they are using to find a bass player. Like I said before a a good management team is going to know a lot of people who are suitable for their band, both in musical ability and appearance.

Its more likely that they will want boneitis band to succeed and therefore offer them players that would suit their style and personality. They will offer a choice . The band still gets to choose the bass player, still has control.

I'm assuming, of course, that Boneitis is working with a management team that is highly competent as they did mention it in the other thread.

That would be someone else's control though. I'd want to pick my own bandmates, not have someone else give me the bandmates they think would work best.

Also I think we should learn from the past that it is a dangerous thing to trust the inside of the music industry

TheMutations

Malice wrote: »

It's not clear from your post whether you're disagreeing with me but for the record I believe the player's ability is vital but it's just so fundamental to the whole situation that it surely doesn't need spelling out. Should the original ad have also said that the player should have two arms and if so would we then have legions of posters giving out to boneitis about being unfair to disabled people?

Its because people think differently. Now if I were to go to an audition, like the one we are discussing, I would need to feel confident about being an experienced and competent player. I know many poor players would turn up just for the hell of it, for whatever reason. I would never assume anything.

I think what is generating so much discussion over this issue is that fact that
Boneitis in their original post refers to a players looks and doesn't mention their ability at all. This is very telling, as it suggests where their priorities lie, and people have picked up on this.

TheMutations

El Pr0n wrote: »

Also I think we should learn from the past that it is a dangerous thing to trust the inside of the music industry

Very true, there are unsavory elements in the industry.

Me personally I would much prefer to choose from a list of 10 or so players given to me by management as I know they will probably be professional and have experience.

Boards can be a good place for finding musicians when you are starting out and don't know anyone, but probably not the best option for a band that is making some serious progress. Unless Boneitis is doing some commercial tie-in with Boards. A "we found our bass player on Boards kind of thing".

boneitis

TheMutations wrote: »

Its because people think differently. Now if I were to go to an audition, like the one we are discussing, I would need to feel confident about being an experienced and competent player. I know many poor players would turn up just for the hell of it, for whatever reason. I would never assume anything.

I think what is generating so much discussion over this issue is that fact that
Boneitis in their original post refers to a players looks and doesn't mention their ability at all. This is very telling, as it suggests where their priorities lie, and people have picked up on this.

I'd suggest that most people are outraged at things I've never said, like "looks are the most important thing" for the role... that is outrageous, but I never said it.

I'd also suggest that you'd have to be fairly simple minded to think that you could be a ****e bassist and get the job, no matter what you look like.

I also suggest that you have argued yourself into a corner and are just arguing to argue.

Let me spell this out for you: Everyone but you gets that you need to be able to play bass, to reply to a bassist wanted advert. Everyone that applied has been asked to supply a photo AND ... now pay close attention... AND a sample of their playing.

BTW: it's worth restating the HUGELY OFFENSIVE sentence again, from the original ad:

"Reality check: The labels (we're talking majors here folks), management, etc., are gonna demand that you look like a bit like a musician... sorry about that, but there you go. To that end you will be vaguely judged on looks. Don't shoot the messenger."


Notice how I CLEARLY sate that it's not US doing the judging?

Miss it?

One more time:

The labels ... management, etc., are gonna demand that you look like a bit like a musician... to that end you will be vaguely judged on looks. Don't shoot the messenger."

I even apologised for this: " sorry about that, but there you go"

Notice the words: "a bit like a musician" and"vaguely judged"

Hardly insane or over the top.

Then, after people asked, and still on Page One, I clearly clarified what I meant:

"To be very clear...

I think scruffy is much closer to what is being advertised for than xfactor glitz.

You know, when you see someone on the street and say, "I bet that person is a musician"... that's the kinda minimum level we're talking about here."

So again, I make it VERY clear that this is not about perfect beautiful people, but about looking like you should be on stage, etc.

rcaz

TheMutations wrote: »

Boards can be a good place for finding musicians when you are starting out and don't know anyone, but probably not the best option for a band that is making some serious progress. Unless Boneitis is doing some commercial tie-in with Boards. A "we found our bass player on Boards kind of thing".

Nobody said Boards was a great place to do this either. Presumably boneitis has his fingers in some other pies apart from Boards.

Rigsby

TheMutations wrote: »

Its because people think differently. Now if I were to go to an audition, like the one we are discussing, I would need to feel confident about being an experienced and competent player. I know many poor players would turn up just for the hell of it, for whatever reason. I would never assume anything.

I think what is generating so much discussion over this issue is that fact that
Boneitis in their original post refers to a players looks and doesn't mention their ability at all. This is very telling, as it suggests where their priorities lie, and people have picked up on this.

I'm coming to this thread a bit late, as I am only now fully realising who posted the original advert and it's connection to this thread.

In my humble opinion, if someone is advertising for a bassist or any musician, it seems so obvious that it is futile, to need to mention that the potential new comer needs to have ability, unless they are being required to play "air bass" !!

rcaz

boneitis wrote: »

looking like you should be on stage, etc.

Or how about, once you're on that stage, looking like "yeah, I can see how that works". After all, Jarvis Cocker :pac:

boneitis

TheMutations wrote: »

Very true, there are unsavory elements in the industry.

Me personally I would much prefer to choose from a list of 10 or so players given to me by management as I know they will probably be professional and have experience.

Boards can be a good place for finding musicians when you are starting out and don't know anyone, but probably not the best option for a band that is making some serious progress. Unless Boneitis is doing some commercial tie-in with Boards. A "we found our bass player on Boards kind of thing".

Maybe if you have this experience at some point in your career you'll change your mind.

It's fairly absurd to inject yourself into a situation you've never been in, just to tell people their reaction to that situation is flawed.

But sure, judge away.

boneitis

El Pr0n wrote: »

Or how about, once you're on that stage, looking like "yeah, I can see how that works". After all, Jarvis Cocker :pac:

hahahaha

TheMutations

boneitis wrote: »

I'd suggest that most people are outraged at things I've never said, like "looks are the most important thing" for the role... that is outrageous, but I never said it.

I'd also suggest that you'd have to be fairly simple minded to think that you could be a ****e bassist and get the job, no matter what you look like.

I also suggest that you have argued yourself into a corner and are just arguing to argue.

Let me spell this out for you: Everyone but you gets that you need to be able to play bass, to reply to a bassist wanted advert. Everyone that applied has been asked to supply a photo AND ... now pay close attention... AND a sample of their playing.

BTW: it's worth restating the HUGELY OFFENSIVE sentence again, from the original ad:

"Reality check: The labels (we're talking majors here folks), management, etc., are gonna demand that you look like a bit like a musician... sorry about that, but there you go. To that end you will be vaguely judged on looks. Don't shoot the messenger."


Notice how I CLEARLY sate that it's not US doing the judging?

Miss it?

One more time:

The labels ... management, etc., are gonna demand that you look like a bit like a musician... to that end you will be vaguely judged on looks. Don't shoot the messenger."

I even apologised for this: " sorry about that, but there you go"

Notice the words: "a bit like a musician" and"vaguely judged"

Hardly insane or over the top.

Then, after people asked, and still on Page One, I clearly clarified what I meant:

"To be very clear...

I think scruffy is much closer to what is being advertised for than xfactor glitz.

You know, when you see someone on the street and say, "I bet that person is a musician"... that's the kinda minimum level we're talking about here."

So again, I make it VERY clear that this is not about perfect beautiful people, but about looking like you should be on stage, etc.

I would like to continue this discussion, but you appear to be very rattled, and close to meltdown; so I'm going to bow out for now.

boneitis

TheMutations wrote: »

I would like to continue this discussion, but you appear to be very rattled, and close to meltdown; so I'm going to bow out for now.

sure... thanks for protecting me.. how kind of you...

seachto7

Doesn't matter if the bass player looks like Brad Pitt, or a sumo wrestler. If the music is pish, nobody will remember who they were in a years time. Music management can do their best and scour the model catalogues, and proverbially ride you up the backside, especially if they are a major label, oh they will ride you up the backside. They throw enough sh!te at the wall, and see what sticks.

The music will talk at the end of the day,not the looks. It. Will. Always. Come. Back. To. The. Music.

Look at the Talk Talk live from Montreux video. Look at the state of them They have no image, but are still talked about as a quality band today.

Look at The Libertines, Razorlight. Two bands ALL about image and teenage screaming girls. Where are they now? The music was almost secondary, and it didn't hold up. Shane McGowan is a prime example of someone whose music holds up, his busted head and all.....

Hard to say, not having heard boneitis music what the story is......How "hot" are you?

Actually, reading back over my post, I am talking through my backside. I do feel that image is important, as in, looking like a band, like a collective, different to the audience, the "us and them" thing, but someone who is thin or overweight can still look like part of the band, part of the collective, set apart from the audience. If looking good is a major factor in wanting to gain fans or teenage girls to scream at you, in my opinion, you are in music for the wrong reasons.....

Rigsby

seachto7 wrote: »

Doesn't matter if the bass player looks like Brad Pitt, or a sumo wrestler. If the music is pish, nobody will remember who they were in a years time. Music management can do their best and scour the model catalogues, and proverbially ride you up the backside, especially if they are a major label, oh they will ride you up the backside. They throw enough sh!te at the wall, and see what sticks.

The music will talk at the end of the day,not the looks. It. Will. Always. Come. Back. To. The. Music.

Look at the Talk Talk live from Montreux video. Look at the state of them They have no image, but are still talked about as a quality band today.

Look at The Libertines, Razorlight. Two bands ALL about image and teenage screaming girls. Where are they now? The music was almost secondary, and it didn't hold up. Shane McGowan is a prime example of someone whose music holds up, his busted head and all.....

Hard to say, not having heard boneitis music what the story is......How "hot" are you?

Actually, reading back over my post, I am talking through my backside. I do feel that image is important, as in, looking like a band, like a collective, different to the audience, the "us and them" thing, but someone who is thin or overweight can still look like part of the band, part of the collective, set apart from the audience. If looking good is a major factor in wanting to gain fans or teenage girls to scream at you, in my opinion, you are in music for the wrong reasons.....

While some of this is true, there are a lot of generalizations here too. Granted, if the music is good, it will stand the test of time, but such is the music industry that bands, music, and artists come and go. With a lot of these type of bands and artists, you will find that looks play a superior part than the music when the band is in it's "hey day". The likes of the "Spice Girls" and "Boyzone" spring to mind.

Also, IMO there is no "right" or "wrong" reason for being involved in music. Everyone has their own agenda, be it wanting teenage girls screaming at you, or for the pure love of the music itself. Like all commodities, it is all down to what the consumer wants, will buy, and will tolerate.

boneitis

Rigsby wrote: »

While some of this is true, there are a lot of generalizations here too. Granted, if the music is good, it will stand the test of time, but such is the music industry that bands, music, and artists come and go. With a lot of these type of bands and artists, you will find that looks play a superior part than the music when the band is in it's "hey day". The likes of the "Spice Girls" and "Boyzone" spring to mind.

Also, IMO there is no "right" or "wrong" reason for being involved in music. Everyone has their own agenda, be it wanting teenage girls screaming at you, or for the pure love of the music itself. Like all commodities, it is all down to what the consumer wants, will buy, and will tolerate.

The reality, as I have said, is that the music business is way too unpleasant to be involved in unless you love music to bits. I have done the "playing music just for love" thing in the past, and found it to be a mixed bag... sure it's fun, but it's also a lot of work and money and in the end, unless you're very lucky, most "passion" bands have about 10 fans... (<-hyperbole)

My attitude is that this thing that I'm good at, that I have had success with, just needs the proper attitude and dedication, and then I can do the thing I dream to do, make a living doing what I love... like all "jobs" much of it stinks, but... imagine you own a small business, you have to fire people, you have to make all sorts of hard decision... it's not a game if you want to stay open and feed your family and pay your employees...

But that reality does not preclude you from loving your job. It's just that, the more something generates for you, the more you have to work and the more hard decisions you must take.

That's the truth that all professionals end up facing; for some it ruins the music, for others it's liberating, as they can compartmentalise the two aspects of the business: the love/enjoyment/passion/fun and the work.

Nothing of value is truly free. You have to work to appreciate what you have, but also not let the work destroy the thing you appreciate or your appreciation of it... if you see what I mean.

I chose to be as pragmatic as possible, in an attempt to compartmentalise the work, but also in an attempt to protect the happiness.

seachto7

boneitis, you sound like a very driven person and fair play to you. Also, I agree that most people who get into original music in a serious way , want to make money. I wouldn't like to do it "for the love of the music", or else it would be an expensive hobby. It is all about the money in many ways. I would think the goal of any original musician is to make a living from that alone (whatever about making lots and lots of money....)
I will agree to disagree about the overweight thing. It wouldn't be something that would hold me back, and I would feel quite offended if a MGMT company told me to ditch the overweight bass player. But , hey, are there any people in the music indistry who aren't crooks these days........