A question for landlords, if I may

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

...
You rent a property, not appliances. To suggest that a tenant should pay a higher rent for high end appliances is ludicrous but it shows your reasoning.

The tenant didn't choose your high end appliances, you did and that's your problem. Not the tenants.

I don't get that. The tenant did choose it when they agreed to rent it.

In Ireland you can choose to rent at wide variety of levels. A room/bedsit or a 5 bedroom house. Usually its furnished and equipped with appliances relative to the price point.

That might seem weird coming from somewhere like germany where unfurnished is the norm (and I think thats a better model myself). But its how its done here. I've certainly had conversations with agent about some properties needing to be upgraded to better meet the expectations of the market for a certain house in a certain area, or indeed the futility of upgrading a house as you won't get the rent to justify it in a certain area, or for that type of property.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

I took the comment to mean he can choose to ignore problems, dictate his lifestyle as hes paying the rent. My comment was ditto the landlord can do the same when they were living there also.

You're talking about something entirely different. That the LL has to fix things to a higher standard if they are renting the place out. In theory that is true. However if people rent it in the condition its in, then the LL has no incentive to improve it at all. Since the point of renting a place out is to make as much profit and reduce any costs you can. Its simply supply and demand. The tenant chooses the standard they want, and the LL choose the standard they want to provide.

I am not saying that Landlords have to "fix" things to a "higher standard" at all.

It's irrelevant whether or not the landlord has an "incentive" BB, there are min standard requirements and these should be met, preferably before the tenant moves in. In the case of issues that arise after the tenant moves in, then they should be sorted within a reasonable amount of time.

When you say standards, do you mean furnishings and the like?

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

I don't get that. The tenant did choose it when they agreed to rent it.

In Ireland you can choose to rent at wide variety of levels. A room/bedsit or a 5 bedroom house. Usually its furnished and equipped with appliances relative to the price point.

That might seem weird coming from somewhere like germany where unfurnished is the norm (and I think thats a better model myself). But its how its done here. I've certainly had conversations with agent about some properties needing to be upgraded to better meet the expectations of the market for a certain house in a certain area, or indeed the futility of upgrading a house as you won't get the rent to justify it in a certain area, or for that type of property.

That's where the flaw is BB. Better furnishings and appliances are irrelevant and should be when renting. Never have I looked at a property and decided to rent somewhere because of a high quality dishwasher - doesn't happen.


Edit - the tenant chose the property - not the appliances, that was the landlord who chose them.
These may insure that a rental is rented quicker than a property with "normal" appliances but shouldn't have a bearing on price.

Graces7

the_syco wrote: »

I think that if you see it's sh|te, why move in? I too am very puzzled by this sort of action.


A snag list is completed before the new owner/tenant move in. Once you are in, there's nothing making the landlord/EA/agent/etc complete the snag list.

First I did not and would not use that word and made no direct complaint. OK? OK!

One issue is of course RA; finding somewhere decent is often hard/ Also three of our moves were emergency eg when there is several inches of water coming in as the foundations that seemed ok are not, or when facing illegal eviction with the end of the lease in sight.

With so little choice around it can be very hard, and given that we have serious health issues also.

The old saying is beggars cannot be choosers,

It is the attitude; finding a phone that no longer works.. oh we thought it would do for here.. being told that there is crockery and pans and finding a few chipped plates and a rusty old frying pan..

And in one house, between signing and moving, they dumped three huge old wardrobes in one bedroom.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

I am not saying that Landlords have to "fix" things to a "higher standard" at all.

It's irrelevant whether or not the landlord has an "incentive" BB, there are min standard requirements and these should be met, preferably before the tenant moves in. In the case of issues that arise after the tenant moves in, then they should be sorted within a reasonable amount of time.

When you say standards, do you mean furnishings and the like?

You're not following what we were talking about. We were simply talking about what people will put up with in their own home. Be it rented or otherwise.

You're talking about rental standards which isn't what we were discussing.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

That's where the flaw is BB. Better furnishings and appliances are irrelevant and should be when renting. Never have I looked at a property and decided to rent somewhere because of a high quality dishwasher - doesn't happen.


Edit - the tenant chose the property - not the appliances, that was the landlord who chose them.
These may insure that a rental is rented quicker than a property with "normal" appliances but shouldn't have a bearing on price.

If you are renting to a highly paid professional, say a 5 bed house in a expensive area and paying 2 or 3 k a month. They certainly do look at the quality of everything.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

TBH I dunno what you are talking about. You seem to be talking about the theory not the practise.



Seems obvious enough to me.

LL don't do these things because they don't have to. People rent the properties regardless. If everyone who viewed the place pointed out the problems and the place didn't rent the the LL would fix them. But if people are going to rent them anyway....[/QUOTE]

Says it all.. people desperate for a house so they get this kind of attitude. Shameful.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

You're not following what we were talking about. We were simply talking about what people will put up with in their own home. Be it rented or otherwise.

You're talking about rental standards which isn't what we were discussing.

Of course I am following the discussion - and of course it's about rental standards, what people will put up with is their business, but landlords shouldn't judge the standards on their properties based on what tenants will "put up with" and if you can't see that then I don't know how else to put it really.

I mean when I moved into this house there was a leak in the kitchen, it wasn't fixed because the last tenant "put up with it", the landlord knew about it yet still showed the property despite it being very obvious. He thought because the last tenant "put up with it" that I would.

Snakeblood

BostonB wrote: »

If you are renting to a highly paid professional, say a 5 bed house in a expensive area and paying 2 or 3 k a month. They certainly do look at the quality of everything.

I'd agree that it should have some bearing on price. It's overall quality of the accommodation that you are paying for, and I think appliances etc. come into that. How much they come into it is down to individual interpretation.

daltonmd

Graces7 wrote: »

BostonB wrote: »

TBH I dunno what you are talking about. You seem to be talking about the theory not the practise.



Seems obvious enough to me.

LL don't do these things because they don't have to. People rent the properties regardless. If everyone who viewed the place pointed out the problems and the place didn't rent the the LL would fix them. But if people are going to rent them anyway....[/QUOTE]

Says it all.. people desperate for a house so they get this kind of attitude. Shameful.

100% correct Grace, some renters, especially those on RA feel "lucky" to get any standard of accomadation and are afraid they will be viewed as "difficult" if they point out obvious problems, the best thing that happened the rental market is this recession - sorry to say that things had to get this bad before landlords (not all I agree) woke up.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

If you are renting to a highly paid professional, say a 5 bed house in a expensive area and paying 2 or 3 k a month. They certainly do look at the quality of everything.

And if he has children and pets he will be looking for furnishings that will be suitable for them - but here's the crux, if landlords don't provide good quality furnishings to "lower" rentals then they shouldn't expect their cheap crap to be in the same condition 12 months down the line.

Graces7

odds_on wrote: »

Basically there are two types of lists - the first list is of what problems you have noticed while viewing the property and before you have moved in. Then there is a snag list of things you don't spot from viewing but only find out after using an appliance or trying to do something like open a window which won't open, or finding that the shower or toilet are not working properly. Never ever just accept a landlord's word that he will fix something.
In either case it is always preferable to have these problems in writing and give the landlord "a reasonable time" (usually 7 - 14 days) to have the problem rectified. This puts a limit on the time that a landlord can take to fix the problem. After which, he is liable to be in breach of the landlord's obligations. This would entitle you to leave the property should the tenant so desire and retain his full deposit.

When advising the landlord (or his agent) of a problem, by all means discuss the matter with him during a phone call or text message. But, always follow up with a dated written letter, specifying the problem and specifying your acceptable time to get the problem fixed. Again, always keep a copy as if there is a claim with the PRTB, you will have written evidence of your request and "the reasonable time" for the landlord to fix it.

If, for example, the landlord has to wait for spare parts (over which he has no control) then he may realistically go over the "reasonable time" in effecting repairs. "A reasonable time" must always allow for such eventualities.

Reminds me of the house before this one. it wasn't until later that we learned the wet way that the toilet was not attached to the floor...When the plumber came, he declared that he could notfix it as the floor was wet and he never came back; We got good at hovering. And the LL knew the washing machime was bust; we found out when it ate clothes.

And as someone else has siad, we have a life to live that does not revolve around waiting for stuff to be fixed that should have been right before we came. A tenancy is not a way of life or a full time job.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

You're not following what we were talking about. We were simply talking about what people will put up with in their own home. Be it rented or otherwise.

You're talking about rental standards which isn't what we were discussing.

Actually, standards is what this is all about.

The great divide. Owning or renting..

daltonmd

Graces7 wrote: »

Actually, standards is what this is all about.

The great divide. Owning or renting..

That's it in a nutshell.

Ray Palmer

daltonmd wrote: »

Your reasoning is flawed. Let me put it to you this way. 2 houses side by side one for sale for 300k and one for 200k - the more expensive one boasts "sandstone floors, brand new kitchen, expensive tiles" etc and the 200k has tiled floors, oldish kitchen and normal tiles - now anyone looking would say "what could I do in the 200k house for 100k"

You rent a property, not appliances. To suggest that a tenant should pay a higher rent for high end appliances is ludicrous but it shows your reasoning.

The tenant didn't choose your high end appliances, you did and that's your problem. Not the tenants.

Missing the point completely. You are talking about house sales not renting. It doesn't even apply in house sales as people rate the time and effort to get the work done. In a normal house market people often overvalue the work done.

You rent property based on the overall finish. I never said pay more rent for appliances. What I was pointing out you want bettter quality everything you pay more. High end appliances go with high end accomadation which comes with high end prices. Overall finish is determined by location. No point having a high end place where people aren't going to pay top price for it.

The reason you think my logic is flawed is becasue you didn't understand. ludicrists to expect top quality for bottom price. If it is not the tenant's problem the LL used high end appliances then it is not the LL problem if they buy low end.

Cedrus

dudmis wrote: »

[*]the drain for the shower is in fact designed for a sink and therefore the shower basin fills to the brim each time you have a shower,
[*]there are too many toilets in the house, so the water flow to them all is rubbish,
[/LIST]

Unless this is a very unusual shower tray this would be impossible, a standard shower waste is 35mm a sink waste is 42mm and if it was the case that the larger size was required why would that mean it would fill up? A sink doesn't fill to the brim unless you put the plug in. It's more likely to be badly installed or blocked pipework, try putting some soda crystals down it.

"Too many toilets" is the best bullstory I've heard from a workshy handyman. This is either convoluted/damaged/blocked pipework inside the house or lack of pressure from the mains. What does he suggest, one communal toilet for the whole street?

I am one of the many accidental landlords currently in the market, I bought a new house and the crash arrived while the builders were still on site leaving me unable to sell the house that I had lived in and loved for 8 years.
So now I trust tenants with €250000 of my property while I hold €750 of theirs as a deposit.
They have already trashed the house to the tune of about €2000, I can't afford to evict them and do the place up in the hope of getting a better tenant. My only hope now is that they will stay until the market picks up enough for investors to start buying again. If the tenants leave, my only option is to find someone desperate enough to put up with a patched together house.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

Of course I am following the discussion - and of course it's about rental standards, what people will put up with is their business, but landlords shouldn't judge the standards on their properties based on what tenants will "put up with" and if you can't see that then I don't know how else to put it really.

I mean when I moved into this house there was a leak in the kitchen, it wasn't fixed because the last tenant "put up with it", the landlord knew about it yet still showed the property despite it being very obvious. He thought because the last tenant "put up with it" that I would.

What you are talking about is rental standards. Thats got nothing to do with this...

dudmis wrote: »

...I, however, have a life and I have chosen to live that rather than spend my days waiting for repairmen that don't turn up.....

If this was my own house, I would not live with those snags.

That specific comment has nothing to do with renting.

Graces7

daltonmd wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell.

WHich most of the LLs here are revealing, whether they realise that or not!

When we took this house, we needed privacy and quiet; worsening health issues. Location was very important.

For other reasons, it was a long distance move,arranged long distance, and we are experienced enough in renting in Ireland to know what to expect.

We have two dogs so we did not want new or high quality furniture. We live simply so needed basics only.

We did not know at first that the house had been empty years and that they had had to gut kitchen and bathroom.

They waited until we arrived to decide what furniture to leave in; most of it was heaped burning in the garden when we arrived

The rest is old and basic; and the previous tenants had had children who they let loose with markers etc. Nothing is undamaged.

We specified we would bring all our own crockery, linen, pans etc.

And it would need a huge amount spent on it. Huge.
And the upheaval would be too much. As for BER!!!! roflol!

So far the water pump has blown five times; but the LL always gets it fixed fast; which is more than any other LL we have had has done.

It is a compromise which is what we have come to expect in Ireland. It will suffice for our needs for the time we have.

But it should not be like this. It really should not be like this.

It is enough for our needs; but reading the German way ! Sounds bliss...

The agent said it was not top of the range; it had been taken off his lists thus and would have been left to rot else,

There seems to be little pride in property on the part of LLs.

daltonmd

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Missing the point completely. You are talking about house sales not renting. It doesn't even apply in house sales as people rate the time and effort to get the work done. In a normal house market people often overvalue the work done.

You rent property based on the overall finish. I never said pay more rent for appliances. What I was pointing out you want bettter quality everything you pay more. High end appliances go with high end accomadation which comes with high end prices. Overall finish is determined by location. No point having a high end place where people aren't going to pay top price for it.

The reason you think my logic is flawed is becasue you didn't understand. ludicrists to expect top quality for bottom price. If it is not the tenant's problem the LL used high end appliances then it is not the LL problem if they buy low end.

The only people who rate the time and effort to get the work done are those who chose to do that - the buyer, looking to buy is not concerned with that Ray. If there is a high end finish on one house and another is asking the same price and has a lower end finish then the one with the high finish will sell first.

I don't want "better" quality anything, nor do many tenants - what they want is a property that is freshly painted with a good heating system and practical floors, working toilets/showers and decent furnishings if they are provided.

I couldn't give a toss if the appliances are Beko or Bosch, as long as they work. If you choose to buy high end appliances then your tenant shouldn't be expected to pay for your choices, but by the same token if you put crap into your "lower" end rentals then you can hardly complain if they don't last.

Quality - does not have to be "higher end" and in many cases it's not. If you buy a crap sofa for 500 Euro and have to replace it yearly then business sense would dictate that you get a "good quality" sofa. that's not high end or "better finish". That's being smart and kitting out a rental, any rental with good quality furnishings.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

What you are talking about is rental standards. Thats got nothing to do with this...

It has everything to do with it.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

And if he has children and pets he will be looking for furnishings that will be suitable for them - but here's the crux, if landlords don't provide good quality furnishings to "lower" rentals then they shouldn't expect their cheap crap to be in the same condition 12 months down the line.

So do you conceed that someone paying 2~3k is going to look at the quality of furnishings and appliances?

Rather than generalisations lets be specific. How much would YOU pay for a bedside locker and how often would YOU expect to replace it.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

It has everything to do with it.

Explain what rental standards have go to do with the standard of your own home. (Not rented).

daltonmd

Graces7 wrote: »

WHich most of the LLs here are revealing, whether they realise that or not!

When we took this house, we needed privacy and quiet; worsening health issues. Location was very important.

For other reasons, it was a long distance move,arranged long distance, and we are experienced enough in renting in Ireland to know what to expect.

We have two dogs so we did not want new or high quality furniture. We live simply so needed basics only.

We did not know at first that the house had been empty years and that they had had to gut kitchen and bathroom.

They waited until we arrived to decide what furniture to leave in; most of it was heaped burning in the garden when we arrived

The rest is old and basic; and the previous tenants had had children who they let loose with markers etc. Nothing is undamaged.

We specified we would bring all our own crockery, linen, pans etc.

And it would need a huge amount spent on it. Huge.
And the upheaval would be too much. As for BER!!!! roflol!

So far the water pump has blown five times; but the LL always gets it fixed fast; which is more than any other LL we have had has done.

It is a compromise which is what we have come to expect in Ireland. It will suffice for our needs for the time we have.

But it should not be like this. It really should not be like this.

It is enough for our needs; but reading the German way ! Sounds bliss...

The agent said it was not top of the range; it had been taken off his lists thus and would have been left to rot else,

There seems to be little pride in property on the part of LLs.

Completely agree Grace, I have *shock horror" kids and pets and during the boom, as a tenant, breeding and allowing the spawn to have pets was completely frowned upon by most landlords. Get this, they didn't want "THEIR" furniture ruined, when I said I wanted unfurnished - well, tumbleweed down the phone.

And we came from Germany. I can tell you it was and remains shocking. A lot of landlords can't separate their "home" from their "rental". I can't tell you the amount of stories I have heard from people who, on viewing a nice property with nice furnishings and beds, signed leases and on moving in found most of these things replaced with crap!!

The house I live in is far from perfect, but like you the landlord is very decent and it is a compromise - and the funniest part of all? Like you said, some landlords have NO pride in their properties yet expect tenants to treat them with some kind of reverence.

BostonB

Graces7 wrote: »

...Says it all.. people desperate for a house so they get this kind of attitude. Shameful.

So Grace f you were a landlord how much would you spend on something specific like a bedside locker. How often would you expect to replace it.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

So do you conceed that someone paying 2~3k is going to look at the quality of furnishings and appliances?

Rather than generalisations lets be specific. How much would YOU pay for a bedside locker and how often would YOU expect to replace it.

Where did I concede that? you said it not me.


Well if we are going to be specific then why would you expect to replace a locker, ever? If it was broken by the tenant wouldn't the tenant replace it?

BostonB

No you avoided it. Why.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

Explain what rental standards have go to do with the standard of your own home. (Not rented).

"I have often wondered, occasionally having been to the homes of our landlords.. if they would themselves live in the places they rent out?"

That was the first post and it lead on to a tenant outlining problems in a rental so I am on topic.

What you choose to do in your own home and whatever standards you have do not apply to when you rent out a property. Because to do so means that everyone who you rent to is like you and they are not.

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

No you avoided it. Why.

What did I avoid? Tell me exactly what quality they are looking for?

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

"I have often wondered, occasionally having been to the homes of our landlords.. if they would themselves live in the places they rent out?"

That was the first post and it lead on to a tenant outlining problems in a rental so I am on topic.

What you choose to do in your own home and whatever standards you have do not apply to when you rent out a property. Because to do so means that everyone who you rent to is like you and they are not.

Every comment isn't a reply to the first post.

The comments you replied to were about your own home. Not rental. Not going to be much of a discussion if you ignore what's posted and you just keep replying to the first post.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

What did I avoid?

"do you conceed that someone paying 2~3k is going to look at the quality of furnishings and appliances"

daltonmd wrote: »

Tell me exactly what quality they are looking for?

They might be looking for a USA style double fridge for example, or an ice maker. Good internet connection, satellite disk installed, etc.