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A question for landlords, if I may
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Every comment isn't a reply to the first post.
The comments you replied to were about your own home. Not rental. Not going to be much of a discussion if you ignore what's posted and you just keep replying to the first post.
I'm not, but while the discussion has moved on the main points haven't - you can't just ignore the first post either BB.
Anyway we seem to be at odds, as a tenant I just want a decent home around me and my family - that's what I pay for and if there are things wrong in the property then they should be addressed, if it were my own home I I wouldn't put up with it, so why should I be forced to because of what a landlord feels I am entitled to.
A high end property renting for 2k - 3k per month is more than likely in a high end area so those letting property and those who have the money to pay for the rental would by default have a different standard in their own homes and would know what to expect.
But by the same token someone renting a house for 800 euro, would be living in a area that is not Killiney and they wouldn't expect Killiney standards in a Walkinstown house (for example), but they would expect the property to adhere to the basic min standards and that everything worked as it should.0 -
So thats a yes then.0
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"do you conceed that someone paying 2~3k is going to look at the quality of furnishings and appliances"
They might be looking for a USA style double fridge for example, or an ice maker. Good internet connection, satellite disk installed, etc.
A fridge? Not quality
Internet connection - out of your hands, again not quality.
Satellite dish - not quality.
These are extras - nothing to do with quality.
If you had a Beko USA style firdge and the tenant wanted a top of the range NEFF one, now that's quality.
Or if you had a cheap work top and the tenant wanted granite - that's quality.
We have different opinions yet again BB...0 -
Sorry the rental standards do not define standard of worktops, or fridges by brand. So if I was to take every thing literally as you are doing. That I would say thats nothing to do with standards either.
The essential point is the more you pay more is demanded. Yes there is a minimum standard. But in most of the cases people (here) people are complaining about things that were obvious and not to the minimum standard like a ber rating for example. While I take the point that in extreme situations you might be forced to accept something you are not happy with. Its a constant theme on boards that people accept low standards then complain about them. I don't disagree that the system is here deeply flawed.0 -
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Completely agree Grace, I have *shock horror" kids and pets and during the boom, as a tenant, breeding and allowing the spawn to have pets was completely frowned upon by most landlords. Get this, they didn't want "THEIR" furniture ruined, when I said I wanted unfurnished - well, tumbleweed down the phone.
And we came from Germany. I can tell you it was and remains shocking. A lot of landlords can't separate their "home" from their "rental". I can't tell you the amount of stories I have heard from people who, on viewing a nice property with nice furnishings and beds, signed leases and on moving in found most of these things replaced with crap!!
The house I live in is far from perfect, but like you the landlord is very decent and it is a compromise - and the funniest part of all? Like you said, some landlords have NO pride in their properties yet expect tenants to treat them with some kind of reverence.
You can't expect the rental market here to follow the german philosophy, they are historically completely different markets with far lower ownership rates in Germany.
There are pros but also a lot of cons to the rental market in Germany, Longer leases with far stricter terms, longer notice periods, bigger deposits (although the holding system is favourable for tenants), the Umlagen is enforced on tenants (what the other thread is arguing about).
The only benefit I would see from the German model would be the longer lease period that would enable a family to rent for a large number of years. There's a huge uncertainty to this in Ireland where a long lease is mayby 5 years plus.
As for furnished v unfurnished - if you've viewed some German apartments you will know that unfurnished can mean just that - an empty room, sometimes no kitchen or even light switches all to be fitted at the tenants expense. Something like that in Ireland would never ever get rented due to tenants expectations.0 -
That is what you think until you actually do it. Good quality furniture gets destroyed by tenants nearly as quickly as poor quality. If you have to replace an expensive sofa as often as a cheap sofa you stop buying the expensive ones very quickly. It is actually cheaper to replace everything with cheap stuff.
Quality - does not have to be "higher end" and in many cases it's not. If you buy a crap sofa for 500 Euro and have to replace it yearly then business sense would dictate that you get a "good quality" sofa. that's not high end or "better finish". That's being smart and kitting out a rental, any rental with good quality furnishings.
I have put furniture that came from my own house which was very expensive and lasted years without any problems to come down and see it totally destroyed due to a lack of care. The only reason it was moved from my own house was due to style not matching.
I agree some LL put nothing put terrible furniture in a place but you have to also aknowledge that tenants do not treat rental property very nicely.
It is soul destroying to walk into a place that was immaculate the year before to see the place damaged by carelessness and disregard. Then have somebody go into a rage at the suggestion of any of their deposit taken to pay for repairs.
I urge tenants and LL to take picutres before they move in. Agree fixes in writing and follow up a month later for any additional things spotted.
Treat people very proffesionally and never get drawn into "you said" argument, keep it in writing. Agree something verbally, tell them to send an e-mail so you and they have a record.
My own house will alwys be a higher quality than a rental as I work for my items and select my taste. I rarely worry about colour shcemes in a rented place:)0 -
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borderlinemeath wrote: »You can't expect the rental market here to follow the german philosophy, they are historically completely different markets with far lower ownership rates in Germany.
There are pros but also a lot of cons to the rental market in Germany, Longer leases with far stricter terms, longer notice periods, bigger deposits (although the holding system is favourable for tenants), the Umlagen is enforced on tenants (what the other thread is arguing about).
The only benefit I would see from the German model would be the longer lease period that would enable a family to rent for a large number of years. There's a huge uncertainty to this in Ireland where a long lease is mayby 5 years plus.
As for furnished v unfurnished - if you've viewed some German apartments you will know that unfurnished can mean just that - an empty room, sometimes no kitchen or even light switches all to be fitted at the tenants expense. Something like that in Ireland would never ever get rented due to tenants expectations.
Tenants expectations are due to the way renting is. More and more people like myself want unfurnished property, I lived and rented in Germany for years and never saw an apartment with no light switches.
Unfurnished is exactly what it says, not furniture and no appliances, you buy or bring your own.
There are many benefits to the German Model, security of tenancy, security of income for LL's, no expense on the LL for repairs.repaints etc. To name a few.0 -
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+1 Agreed on the German model.0
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Nothing. But paying low rent wasn't anything to do with what I asked.
But didn't you say that people paying high rent would look for high quality?
I don't really get what your point is so?
When we talk of standards and quality you are of the view that if you pay more then you get better quality. If you pay 2k - or 3k for a property then we can assume you are renting in Killiney, if you are paying 1000 or less then you are not. So why would a tenant expect Killiney standards for Walkinstown rent?
It's not difficult really!!0 -
You ignored this also. I was curious how you'd approach it.
You ignored my question.
If you rented a house with a locker and if you had to replace it - on what grounds would you be replacing it?
Did the tenant break it?
or is it old and in need of replacement?
If it's not old and it's not broken then why replace it?
If the tenant broke it then the tenant pays for it - so what difference does it make to the landlord.
If it's old and needs to be replaced then it needs to be replaced.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »That is what you think until you actually do it. Good quality furniture gets destroyed by tenants nearly as quickly as poor quality. If you have to replace an expensive sofa as often as a cheap sofa you stop buying the expensive ones very quickly. It is actually cheaper to replace everything with cheap stuff.
I have put furniture that came from my own house which was very expensive and lasted years without any problems to come down and see it totally destroyed due to a lack of care. The only reason it was moved from my own house was due to style not matching.
I agree some LL put nothing put terrible furniture in a place but you have to also aknowledge that tenants do not treat rental property very nicely.
It is soul destroying to walk into a place that was immaculate the year before to see the place damaged by carelessness and disregard. Then have somebody go into a rage at the suggestion of any of their deposit taken to pay for repairs.
I urge tenants and LL to take picutres before they move in. Agree fixes in writing and follow up a month later for any additional things spotted.
Treat people very proffesionally and never get drawn into "you said" argument, keep it in writing. Agree something verbally, tell them to send an e-mail so you and they have a record.
My own house will alwys be a higher quality than a rental as I work for my items and select my taste. I rarely worry about colour shcemes in a rented place:)
I absolutely acknowledge that there are as many bad tenants out there as bad landlords.
In regards to furnishing, isn't that what the deposit is used for? I agree with the photos, I took them when I moved in. I also gave a pet deposit to cover any damage done by this and have agreed with the landlord that this will be used to have the carpets professionally cleaned when I leave.
My reasoning is that a simple vaccuum won't do and will have the carpets treated and present him with proof, this deposit is handy for me because it will save me the expense at the end.
I do think though that min standards should be met and that a decent level of furnishings provided OR the landlord can give the option to tenants to bring their own sofas for example. I have kids and pets and whatever about the floors I would hate to be giving out to my kids for being kids so rather they damage my sofa then the landlords.
It's about compromise and respect on both parts Ray.0 -
Guys you have to get over the German standard you keep going on about. They don't follow our standard they have a completely different rental market with a completely different owner structure.
It simple isn't going to happen here without a massive change. You might as well ask for us to speak German. There are plenty of other things that could do with reform in the rental law. Deposit holding system, tenant gurentee scheme, quick evictions, forced payment of arrears etc...
Rentals without furniture is way down the list and not actually in high demand.
I'd love to let my tenants decorate and then return the place as it was but it is a least of the problems tenats and LL face.0 -
Tenants expectations are due to the way renting is. More and more people like myself want unfurnished property, I lived and rented in Germany for years and never saw an apartment with no light switches.
Unfurnished is exactly what it says, not furniture and no appliances, you buy or bring your own.
There are many benefits to the German Model, security of tenancy, security of income for LL's, no expense on the LL for repairs.repaints etc. To name a few.
There are pros and cons as I've said, but my point was that you can't expect the german model to work here. We have neither the history of renters in place nor the legislation to make it work.
If you put a house on daft with no furniture/appliances/kitchen in place you would get very few replies due to tenants expectations of what rental property should be. The majority of tenants in this country don't want to own their own appliances or furniture - it's too easy to rent a property with them in place.
Believe me - I bought my niece a bed and my sister freaked because she was panicking about what to leave if she ever moved out of the house she's been renting for 7 years. She has a secure tenancy buy would never want to own her own appliances or furniture purely because she would have nowhere to put it if she had to move as 100% of rentals contain appliances (due to legislation, unless agreed by tenant and landlord) and the majority have furniture.0 -
Ray, it is clear that you have experienced difficulty with tenants regarding appliances and the like, but to say that the price of a rental should be based on the quality of the appliances is completely wrong, but this is where the rental market in this country is flawed....
The issue was you pay for for a higher standard. Be that extra's whatever. You didn't mention location originally. You've introduced that to confusticate a simple query. As is the mixing of higher standard with "rental standard"
If a property is in the same location, and the same size, you pay more for the one thats to a better standard of finish. Maybe you personally wouldn't be others definitely do. As a result to get less rental income for a property with a less standard of finish.0 -
You ignored my question.
If you rented a house with a locker and if you had to replace it - on what grounds would you be replacing it?
Did the tenant break it?
or is it old and in need of replacement?
If it's not old and it's not broken then why replace it?
If the tenant broke it then the tenant pays for it - so what difference does it make to the landlord.
If it's old and needs to be replaced then it needs to be replaced.
The point was made it wouldn't break so often if you bought a better quality.
But you didn't answer the question, you've simple asked a different question in response.
I have no idea what you mean by better quality. As you won't answer the question. All I know is, furniture that lasts perfectly well in my house, with small kids. Is obliterated by tenants on a regular basis. Or simply vanishes.
The reality is the cost in time and effort isn't recoverable from a tenant. Regardless of the theory.0 -
borderlinemeath wrote: »There are pros and cons as I've said, but my point was that you can't expect the german model to work here. We have neither the history of renters in place nor the legislation to make it work.
If you put a house on daft with no furniture/appliances/kitchen in place you would get very few replies due to tenants expectations of what rental property should be. The majority of tenants in this country don't want to own their own appliances or furniture - it's too easy to rent a property with them in place.
Believe me - I bought my niece a bed and my sister freaked because she was panicking about what to leave if she ever moved out of the house she's been renting for 7 years. She has a secure tenancy buy would never want to own her own appliances or furniture purely because she would have nowhere to put it if she had to move as 100% of rentals contain appliances (due to legislation, unless agreed by tenant and landlord) and the majority have furniture.
I'd respond to that add, I have my own furniture and appliances and many who sold their homes and want to buy have theirs in storage.
It maybe ok for your niece (no kids?) and students, but there are rentals, short term that could be furnished.
That's how it is in Germany (sorry to use the model again) but short term rentals for students and for stop gaps is furnished. For those who have to or want to rent longer there is unfurnished - in other words they don't try to put the duvet over everyone.
We have to realise here that there are different types of renting, student and short term, but what is relatively new is long term renting and it will change because a lot of people renting now either won't be in a position to buy or have been completely put off buying because of what has happened to so many.
Landlords and tenants will come to agreements about who replaces the couch, the landlord might ask the tenant to do it themselves, because he can't afford it or the tenant may want to do it because they want their own taste in the property.
It is changing and will continue because the tenant is changing and the market is tough so landlords will have to change with it.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »Guys you have to get over the German standard you keep going on about. They don't follow our standard they have a completely different rental market with a completely different owner structure.
It simple isn't going to happen here without a massive change. You might as well ask for us to speak German. There are plenty of other things that could do with reform in the rental law. Deposit holding system, tenant gurentee scheme, quick evictions, forced payment of arrears etc...
Rentals without furniture is way down the list and not actually in high demand.
I'd love to let my tenants decorate and then return the place as it was but it is a least of the problems tenats and LL face.
Rofl - Germans following our standards??? Please, I know some Germans and trust me, our standards don't come up to their ankles.
As to your reforms, that's the German Model right there.
As to rentals unfurnished in low demand, that may well be the case but I have found even when I ask it is a no no. SO you can't win em all....0 -
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The point was made it wouldn't break so often if you bought a better quality.
But you didn't answer the question, you've simple asked a different question in response.
I have no idea what you mean by better quality. As you won't answer the question. All I know is, furniture that lasts perfectly well in my house, with small kids. Is obliterated by tenants on a regular basis. Or simply vanishes.
The reality is the cost in time and effort isn't recoverable from a tenant. Regardless of the theory.
You're asking me how often I would expect to replace a locker and I am asking you why would I replace it.
If you are saying that you don't bother taking it from the deposit then I don't know what to tell you because I have my lockers 10 years and have no intention of replacing them - they have survived my two kids, both in their teens and trust me these guys are like bulls in a china shop.
The problem here seems to be your failure to take the money for items that have been stolen or broken, that is a completely different issue and I can't understand why you wouldn't avail of the rights that you have as a landlord?0 -
I can understand how the German model would work for family or other lengthy lettings, but how does it work for students or other transitory tenants who tend to move home every summer? What do they do with their furnishings?0
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I can understand how the German model would work for family or other lengthy lettings, but how does it work for students or other transitory tenants who tend to move home every summer? What do they do with their furnishings?
I said it in the earlier post. Short term lettings and lettings for students are furnished, long term aren't.
If you were to look for property it would ask what you want and cater for your needs, unlike the one size has to fit all model here.0 -
I'd respond to that add, I have my own furniture and appliances and many who sold their homes and want to buy have theirs in storage.
It maybe ok for your niece (no kids?) and students, but there are rentals, short term that could be furnished.
That's how it is in Germany (sorry to use the model again) but short term rentals for students and for stop gaps is furnished. For those who have to or want to rent longer there is unfurnished - in other words they don't try to put the duvet over everyone.
We have to realise here that there are different types of renting, student and short term, but what is relatively new is long term renting and it will change because a lot of people renting now either won't be in a position to buy or have been completely put off buying because of what has happened to so many.
Landlords and tenants will come to agreements about who replaces the couch, the landlord might ask the tenant to do it themselves, because he can't afford it or the tenant may want to do it because they want their own taste in the property.
It is changing and will continue because the tenant is changing and the market is tough so landlords will have to change with it.
It would be very hard to implement as legisation is still very poor and badly enforced in this area and most tenants would not be like you. You only have to look at this forum on any given day and it's tenants giving out about broken appliances or dodgy furniture and they have NO intention of ever buying their own stuff for a rental.
I responded to one post where a couple had moved into an apartment and didn't notice that the bed was a small double (and he was 6ft4) so there was very little room for them and what were the chances of the landlord changing it. Myself and a couple of other posters replied and said that would they not think about investing in their own cheap bed with a good quality mattress and the suggestion was shot down withough even consideration!0 -
borderlinemeath wrote: »It would be very hard to implement as legisation is still very poor and badly enforced in this area and most tenants would not be like you. You only have to look at this forum on any given day and it's tenants giving out about broken appliances or dodgy furniture and they have NO intention of ever buying their own stuff for a rental.
I responded to one post where a couple had moved into an apartment and didn't notice that the bed was a small double (and he was 6ft4) so there was very little room for them and what were the chances of the landlord changing it. Myself and a couple of other posters replied and said that would they not think about investing in their own cheap bed with a good quality mattress and the suggestion was shot down withough even consideration!
What legislation? As far as I am aware there is no legislation that says a landlord has to provide furniture or can only let a furnished home.
What is there is that if you do provide it that it is working and they advise that you take an inventory - this is to prevent arguments about damage and loss of items down the line.
In regards to your example, I absolutely get what you mean, but if a bed was provided then the onus is on the landlord to maintain and change things like this - this is where the expectation arises from tenants - if there is a bed there then it should be in good nick or suitable, if you get my meaning. There are more and more unfurnished properties on the market then during the boom, more choice is emerging and if you can see that more tenants will want to stay in properties for longer then at some stage they might also want to start buying their own stuff.0 -
Our standards are different becasue our LL are different. We can't follow their standards and they can't follow our that is the point.Rofl - Germans following our standards??? Please, I know some Germans and trust me, our standards don't come up to their ankles.
As to your reforms, that's the German Model right there.
As to rentals unfurnished in low demand, that may well be the case but I have found even when I ask it is a no no. SO you can't win em all....
The reason the rental without furniture is a no no to a LL is he then has to go and store the furniture he has if he agrees to it. In effect unless you want to pay the extra no LL is going to want the hassle to accomadate you at their own expense. Learn to accept you aren't in Germany.
I for one am glad ireland didn't need to be destroyed in order to make way for rental properties to home the people of WW20 -
Someone mentioned bedside lockers? I don't use one; there was a set of those tall, graduated shelves dumped in the shed so it got cleaned up to use.
There are two lockers here. One is covered in stickers, some pretty gross and I don;t have time or energy to deal with it. The other has a large ragged hole in the back. The previous tenants had rough ways/
One house had such a filthy suite we had the landlord remove it and we got four small armchairs from V de P which we left there.
The carpet was unspeakable. So we showed him a local supplier who had a special on laminated flooring and more or less made him do that. The smell coming from the carpet...
The fact that these things are left like that. is what is shocking. No pride.
Maybe the divide is that Lls see it as a business; for us it is our home, our safe place. Where we sleep and eat and relax. Not like a cafe where we pay, eat and leave. THAT is a business arrangement.
And few on eg RA can afford to do a place up.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »Our standards are different becasue our LL are different. We can't follow their standards and they can't follow our that is the point.
The reason the rental without furniture is a no no to a LL is he then has to go and store the furniture he has if he agrees to it. In effect unless you want to pay the extra no LL is going to want the hassle to accomadate you at their own expense. Learn to accept you aren't in Germany.
I for one am glad ireland didn't need to be destroyed in order to make way for rental properties to home the people of WW2
We don't have standards Ray. That is the point. Not sure what you are on about regarding WW" but anyway...
I am a customer and I require a service, landlords or service providers should take my needs into account. I want to rent a property, not rent furniture.
Why should a tenant, who wants to bring their own furnishings into a property be concerned about what a landlord has to do with furniture he bought - he is presuming that everyone wants a furnished property and that is not the case, I absolutely accept I am not in Germany, that was clear when I viewed the first few rentals when I returned, trust me the appalling standards made that crystal clear, landlords now and in the future will have to accept that they can no longer impose their rules onto tenants.
The customer should always have the choice Ray, basic rules of business, or should I say a successful business.
In looking for property I always asked if I could have it unfurnished, all but my present landlord said no at first and when I made it clear that I was moving on, they changed their minds. I would never rent from them even when they changed their minds because their refusal to accept that tenants should have a choice made it clear to me that everything would be an issue.
The market is changing and of the 3 rentals that I looked at before taking this one, 2 are still vacant and up for sale.0 -
Someone mentioned bedside lockers? I don't use one; there was a set of those tall, graduated shelves dumped in the shed so it got cleaned up to use.
There are two lockers here. One is covered in stickers, some pretty gross and I don;t have time or energy to deal with it. The other has a large ragged hole in the back. The previous tenants had rough ways/
One house had such a filthy suite we had the landlord remove it and we got four small armchairs from V de P which we left there.
The carpet was unspeakable. So we showed him a local supplier who had a special on laminated flooring and more or less made him do that. The smell coming from the carpet...
The fact that these things are left like that. is what is shocking. No pride.
Maybe the divide is that Lls see it as a business; for us it is our home, our safe place. Where we sleep and eat and relax. Not like a cafe where we pay, eat and leave. THAT is a business arrangement.
And few on eg RA can afford to do a place up.
It is a business Grace, the problem is that most LL's DON'T treat it as such. If they did then firstly they would offer choice, furnished or unfurnished and secondly they would provide decent furniture, your story reminds me of a house that I viewed before this one, LL refused to empty it out and the agent was mortified by the state of the furniture (and I use the term lightly). I asked him could we sit on the couch and discuss it and he blanched - you wouldn't put a dog on it. I asked him why he was bothering showing it around, he said speaking to the landlady was like talking to the wall, she wasn't prepared to put another penny into it - he also said that she didn't want to pay for storage, I laughed out loud as did he, the stuff was fit for burning.
How still vacant and now for sale.0 -
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Yes we do have standards you just don't feel they are high enough. The market determines the supply not the customer as such. If the demand is sufficiently low the market will not supply it. That is reality you need to learn to accept that and also learn the customer is not always right nor catered for. Customers are not magically overloards that get their hearts desires.We don't have standards Ray. That is the point. Not sure what you are on about regarding WW" but anyway...
I am a customer and I require a service, landlords or service providers should take my needs into account. I want to rent a property, not rent furniture.
The customer should always have the choice Ray, basic rules of business, or should I say a successful business.
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WW2 is the only reason that Germany has the rental market they have. Otherwise they would have more privately own property. The need for quick accomadation required big business which laws were brought in to regulate. They didn''t make some great choice and bring in some laws, they had no choice. They couldn't insist on furniture as there was none to provide.
In Ireland rental property comes furnished as in the UK. In France they charge a huge amount for a pint but don't here. Some things are just down to cultural differences and economics of that. Get over it as it will require a massive change in the market that will take decades and there isn't much desire.0
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