A question for landlords, if I may

Snakeblood

daltonmd wrote: »

It is a business Grace, the problem is that most LL's DON'T treat it as such. If they did then firstly they would offer choice, furnished or unfurnished and secondly they would provide decent furniture, your story reminds me of a house that I viewed before this one, LL refused to empty it out and the agent was mortified by the state of the furniture (and I use the term lightly). I asked him could we sit on the couch and discuss it and he blanched - you wouldn't put a dog on it. I asked him why he was bothering showing it around, he said speaking to the landlady was like talking to the wall, she wasn't prepared to put another penny into it - he also said that she didn't want to pay for storage, I laughed out loud as did he, the stuff was fit for burning.

How still vacant and now for sale.

I have seen that be a problem. We asked our landlord to move anything we didn't want, and that was no problem. There was a bed which had obviously seen hard use, and a few other bits and pieces that were just old and tired looking. Like 1980s old. I don't think it's terribly fussy to want an oven that was created this century. If people don't care, they don't care, but I'd be embarassed if I actually owned the place and had it filled with junk. A house that you are renting to someone shouldn't be a bin for the old oven\bed\fridge\washing machine you had in your other house, and that seems to be fairly endemic renting houses.

Solair

The biggest problems I have come across while renting in Ireland are :

1) Mould being covered up rather than treated.
2) Inadequate glazing and insulation
3) Bad quality, damaged furniture even in expensive places.
4) Unresolved leaks and electrical issues.
5) Cigarette smoke ingress from other apartments, even in relatively new build, due to poor construction standards.

The other really major issue, compared to the continent, is very poor heating systems.

We had storage heating in two apartments which were simply so expensive to run that we couldn't really afford to heat the apartment. There was also no way of heating water without using the immersion and the tank was inadequately insulated so it also cost an absolute fortune to run.

The other nightmarish heating system was a Calor Gas system. Wow that was expensive to run. We had to pay bills for a shared bulk tank supply and the rates were astronomical and appeared to be set by the management company, not the gas company.

Couple these cheap and nasty heating systems with bad quality insulation, unregulated building standards, single glazing and you end up with massive monthly outgoings to just keep the place barely comfortable. This probably is why many Irish rental properties have mould problems : tenants cannot afford to heat the building properly.

I wouldn't single rental properties out for this though, it seems houses in general in Ireland are just really badly insulated and often quite poorly constructed. It boggles the mind that you can find houses built in the 1970s with absolutely no insulation at all and single-glazing in a climate like this.

To me, it's all seems symptomatic of an unwillingness to regulate anything to do with the banks, real-estate agents, construction sector or property rental sector due to clientelism and deep systemic corruption.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

It is a business Grace, the problem is that most LL's DON'T treat it as such. If they did then firstly they would offer choice, furnished or unfurnished ...

I'm been told emphatically by a number of agents there's no demand for unfurnished, the ones they have on their books sit there. They've had people use them for temporary living and storing furniture, while their own house is being refurbished. But only for very short term lettings.

That seems little far fetched to me, but that's what I've been told, by numerous agents.

BostonB

Cedrus wrote: »

I can understand how the German model would work for family or other lengthy lettings, but how does it work for students or other transitory tenants who tend to move home every summer? What do they do with their furnishings?

In Germany you can walk into a hyper store and buy a ton of furniture, for very little.

Snakeblood

BostonB wrote: »

I'm been told emphatically by a number of agents there's no demand for unfurnished, the ones they have on their books sit there. They've had people use them for temporary living and storing furniture, while their own house is being refurbished. But only for very short term lettings.

That seems little far fetched to me, but that's what I've been told, by numerous agents.

I can see that if the main thrust of the market was for people who rented when young (and who buys furniture when young?) and then bought houses as soon as they could. The market's going through a seismic shock now, though, and I think the long term rental market (that this would be servicing) is going to shoot up in popularity as the allure of owning a constantly falling in value item slowly declines.

Graces7

daltonmd wrote: »

It is a business Grace, the problem is that most LL's DON'T treat it as such. If they did then firstly they would offer choice, furnished or unfurnished and secondly they would provide decent furniture, your story reminds me of a house that I viewed before this one, LL refused to empty it out and the agent was mortified by the state of the furniture (and I use the term lightly). I asked him could we sit on the couch and discuss it and he blanched - you wouldn't put a dog on it. I asked him why he was bothering showing it around, he said speaking to the landlady was like talking to the wall, she wasn't prepared to put another penny into it - he also said that she didn't want to pay for storage, I laughed out loud as did he, the stuff was fit for burning.

How still vacant and now for sale.

Oh funny! re the couch I mean! We took the cushions up in front of him in one place and he was mortified at what was under them..We had already made him take the beds out and bought our own. yes, we got the storage story too. ie dump it in the rental.

Here they were going to burn the old settee, which is not dirty etc or very old, but we said no; the dogs will love it. It is actually a decent settee.

Graces7

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Yes we do have standards you just don't feel they are high enough. The market determines the supply not the customer as such. If the demand is sufficiently low the market will not supply it. That is reality you need to learn to accept that and also learn the customer is not always right nor catered for. Customers are not magically overloards that get their hearts desires.

WW2 is the only reason that Germany has the rental market they have. Otherwise they would have more privately own property. The need for quick accomadation required big business which laws were brought in to regulate. They didn''t make some great choice and bring in some laws, they had no choice. They couldn't insist on furniture as there was none to provide.

In Ireland rental property comes furnished as in the UK. In France they charge a huge amount for a pint but don't here. Some things are just down to cultural differences and economics of that. Get over it as it will require a massive change in the market that will take decades and there isn't much desire.

This "get over it repetition" irks. And is not a valid point.

This is why Ireland is called a third world country by many folk.You are deliberately keeping standards low and taking advantage of people who need a home and have no real choice.

You call it good business; it is something else altogether.

BostonB

daltonmd wrote: »

You're asking me how often I would expect to replace a locker and I am asking you why would I replace it.
If you are saying that you don't bother taking it from the deposit then I don't know what to tell you because I have my lockers 10 years and have no intention of replacing them - they have survived my two kids, both in their teens and trust me these guys are like bulls in a china shop.

The problem here seems to be your failure to take the money for items that have been stolen or broken, that is a completely different issue and I can't understand why you wouldn't avail of the rights that you have as a landlord?

That's not answering the question. I wanted to see what you thought was a reasonable quality for a rental. Despite asking a number of times, I'm still no further.

How do you know I failed to take money for the damages? Thats complete fiction on your part.

I ask because I'm completely baffled how people destroy these. Last house I looked at there was two left, one repairable, one obliterated the rest missing and a load of knobs missing from a wide range of furniture. The deposit didn't cover the damage or the 3 months rent they owed either. They changed the locks, then disappeared. They even took all the light bulbs. All the wheels/legs off the beds. Just bizarre stuff. Another house we're still discovering bits of the house they rewired.

But its the lockers I'm curious about. In almost every rental I see the lockers just don't survive very long. Like you I have mine about 10yrs. Weird. In future I'd advise not to bother with them.

Graces7

Solair wrote: »

The biggest problems I have come across while renting in Ireland are :

1) Mould being covered up rather than treated.
2) Inadequate glazing and insulation
3) Bad quality, damaged furniture even in expensive places.
4) Unresolved leaks and electrical issues.
5) Cigarette smoke ingress from other apartments, even in relatively new build, due to poor construction standards.

The other really major issue, compared to the continent, is very poor heating systems.

We had storage heating in two apartments which were simply so expensive to run that we couldn't really afford to heat the apartment. There was also no way of heating water without using the immersion and the tank was inadequately insulated so it also cost an absolute fortune to run.

The other nightmarish heating system was a Calor Gas system. Wow that was expensive to run. We had to pay bills for a shared bulk tank supply and the rates were astronomical and appeared to be set by the management company, not the gas company.

Couple these cheap and nasty heating systems with bad quality insulation, unregulated building standards, single glazing and you end up with massive monthly outgoings to just keep the place barely comfortable. This probably is why many Irish rental properties have mould problems : tenants cannot afford to heat the building properly.

I wouldn't single rental properties out for this though, it seems houses in general in Ireland are just really badly insulated and often quite poorly constructed. It boggles the mind that you can find houses built in the 1970s with absolutely no insulation at all and single-glazing in a climate like this.

To me, it's all seems symptomatic of an unwillingness to regulate anything to do with the banks, real-estate agents, construction sector or property rental sector due to clientelism and deep systemic corruption.

Storage heaters! One new estate in Donegal had to take them out as the council tenants were massively in debt.

This is an old stone house; thick walls etc. Heating is from a solid fuel stove in the kitchen; heats a couple of radiators upstairs. And hot water. Best system we have had yet as we can buy coal when we can afford it and not run up bills. Supplement with an electric heater. Life becomes possible.

BostonB

Snakeblood wrote: »

I can see that if the main thrust of the market was for people who rented when young (and who buys furniture when young?) and then bought houses as soon as they could. The market's going through a seismic shock now, though, and I think the long term rental market (that this would be servicing) is going to shoot up in popularity as the allure of owning a constantly falling in value item slowly declines.

I've know a few people who've done that. Sold their house, and moved into a rental with all their furniture. One family is renting a house that at peak about 1.5 million to buy for about 1500~2000 a month. Its still far mess then they'd be losing in negative equity.

BostonB

Graces7 wrote: »

...You are deliberately keeping standards low and taking advantage of people who need a home and have no real choice.

You call it good business; it is something else altogether.

What housing do you provide for people? By that I mean, its very easy to be critical of other people, if you've no experience of doing it yourself. Its all very well in theory in practise its a little different.

Snakeblood

BostonB wrote: »

I've know a few people who've done that. Sold their house, and moved into a rental with all their furniture. One family is renting a house that at peak about 1.5 million to buy for about 1500~2000 a month. Its still far mess then they'd be losing in negative equity.

I'm doing that. I sold my apartment two years ago and moved everything into a house. I wouldn't have been able to afford the mortgage on it in 2009.

BostonB

IMO a smart move, if you can do it.

Snakeblood

BostonB wrote: »

IMO a smart move, if you can do it.

Well, I got smashed on the sale price, but I figured so what if I lose all my savings, I can't live in a one bed with a family.

BostonB

Well you can but I take your point its not ideal. You've not a millstone of debt if you need to be flexible.

Ray Palmer

Graces7 wrote: »

This "get over it repetition" irks. And is not a valid point.

This is why Ireland is called a third world country by many folk.You are deliberately keeping standards low and taking advantage of people who need a home and have no real choice.

You call it good business; it is something else altogether.

That is not why Ireland is called a 3rd world country. If you think it our quality of rental property you are missing the actual valid reasons.

It is completely valid point to say there is no reason to expect one cultural norms to pass to another country just because you like it there. There is a history which is relevant to laws

As you have never provided such a service in Ireland you know pretty much nothing about how to operate one. You are at the bottom league of rental property ladder so know pretty much nothing about the rest of the market or how to operate in it. Call it what you like but you know nothing of any real value outside your very limited expereince.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

What housing do you provide for people? By that I mean, its very easy to be critical of other people, if you've no experience of doing it yourself. Its all very well in theory in practise its a little different.

Your technique of evading issues by challenging posters is transparent and evasive. Answer one question with another! Fools no one.

I would never, ever expect anyone, especially if they were paying rent, to live in some of the dumps I have lived in. There is no excuse for filth. Or for basic repairs unseen to. Or for crappy furniture and stained mattresses.

It is the same as running a guest house, which I have done. Respect for others.
Checking between guests... Cleaning.

No guest house or hotel would survive as rentals do.

Graces7

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is not why Ireland is called a 3rd world country. If you think it our quality of rental property you are missing the actual valid reasons.

It is completely valid point to say there is no reason to expect one cultural norms to pass to another country just because you like it there. There is a history which is relevant to laws

As you have never provided such a service in Ireland you know pretty much nothing about how to operate one. You are at the bottom league of rental property ladder so know pretty much nothing about the rest of the market or how to operate in it. Call it what you like but you know nothing of any real value outside your very limited expereince.

Oh WOW; sneering now! Patronising....Madam; you know nothing of my life.Where I am now bears no resemblance to where I have been.

I speak from experience and it takes little to see what is going on.

Bottom rung? What does that mean? That I should put up with crap and filth? Because of age and disabilty etc?

Nothing to do with such meaningless terms as culture and history. Those are just excuses. For a shoddy and patronising attitude

In this tenancy we have the upper hand and take no crap. Does not improve the house but makes it easier.

This is what we have been taught by LLs.

One of the real signs of a third world country is an attitude such as yours; steeped in a spurious sense of superiority and class distinction th

Based on cupidity not culture. Not on any real human values,

That is third world through and through.

ALLELUAI for the Tenancy Act!! POWER to the tenants! No more crappy furniture and bed bugs. yes we had BED BUGS in one house.

Solair

I'd have to say that I had pretty bad experiences with renting in Ireland myself:

We were paying €1000 / month in Cork City Centre recently and this is what we were presented with when we moved in :

When we removed the throws / covers from the mattresses they were badly urine stained and this went right through to the bed base.
The landlord refused to replace them. I ended up buying my own bed and insisting she remove them. She made a huge deal about this and took weeks!

There were cigarette butts and popcorn in the couch.

Then we had a huge mould problem which came about because mould had been painted over.

Finally, the fire alarm system was disabled (wires cut! at the fuse box).

Thankfully, managed to get out of that dump!

In Dublin we were paying €1400/month at the peak of the boom for a 1 bed apartment and it was still crappy with lots of minor problems - bad quality painting, smoke ingress from the flat nextdoor etc etc

The impression I got was that if you rent you are, unless you happen to find a nice landlord, treated like a second class citizen or a stooge who is supposed to pay someone's mortgage.

There's basically no regulation or inspection of properties, so I don't really know why anyone would expect the standards to be anything but low.

I've also rented in London and it's as bad / worse there!

Incidentally, when the rent went up to 1400 / month we emigrated!

The other thing that really irks me is the management companies that do absolutely nothing - we've had BAD experiences with unrepaired external locks, bins all over the place etc etc.

The way the management companies treat homeowners who are paying them good money (rental and purchased) is nothing short of scandalous.

BostonB

More complaints easily spotted on viewing.

Solair

BostonB wrote: »

More complaints easily spotted on viewing.

Not when viewing's done with tenants in situ as is quite common.

What are you supposed to do strip the bed?!

There are times though, you'd just give up. The attitude (as demonstrated by this thread) is "ah sure it's grand" or "your own fault".

People are paying huge money for these rentals and there is simply no regulation or proper standards enforcement and it is way out of line with best practice elsewhere in Europe.

To me, it just has echoes of the old abuse of tenants that's gone on in Ireland and Britain since the feudal times and of the class/caste system.

The facts are that standards in property business are extremely low and chaotic and it is completely out of step with any other sector in terms of consistency, quality control or consumer rights.

BostonB

Solair wrote: »

Not when viewing's done with tenants in situ as is quite common.

What are you supposed to do strip the bed?!...

Furniture is obvious. Strip the bed. Certainly. Why not.

Victor

Folks, less of the melodramatics and personalisations please.

BostonB wrote: »

Furniture is obvious. Strip the bed. Certainly. Why not.

Not your bed.

But yes, the landlord needs to reconcile these conflicts.

BostonB

Where does it say you can't check a bed, if you've been given a viewing. Which is permission to check things.

Solair

Well, when the viewing, in my experience, are usually arranged when there's already a sitting tenant and all of their stuff is there, it is usually very difficult to inspect anything.

Ideally, you would need to do things like check the shower, open closets, check for mould behind things, move furniture, lift cushions off couch, remove bed clothes from bed etc.

Possibly do a few rudimentary checks of the fire alarm system and the electrical distribution board.

E.g. we moved into a place which we subsequently discovered had no RCD protection on the shower!!

Ordinary punters viewing an apartment are not qualified surveyors, electricians or plumbers and a lot of landlords make absolutely no provision for someone to do anything other than give the place a cursory glance around!

BostonB

Considering the money that's involved, it would be financially irresponsible not to do it.

Things like the electrics not being safe would invalidate the lease for me.

the_syco

daltonmd wrote: »

But by the same token someone renting a house for 800 euro, would be living in a area that is not Killiney and they wouldn't expect Killiney standards in a Walkinstown house (for example), but they would expect the property to adhere to the basic min standards and that everything worked as it should.

The Irish market can be odd. I've seen a few holes in good areas advertised with a large rent amount, and I've seen some excellent houses in bad areas with a small rent. The area that the building is in doesn't mean the building will be in any way good.

Graces7 wrote: »

This is why Ireland is called a third world country by many folk.

What country did you come from, and if it's so bad, why did you move here?

Graces7 wrote: »

Bottom rung? What does that mean?

I think "bottom rung" is paying for the manger and expecting a castle?

daltonmd

BostonB wrote: »

That's not answering the question. I wanted to see what you thought was a reasonable quality for a rental. Despite asking a number of times, I'm still no further.

How do you know I failed to take money for the damages? Thats complete fiction on your part.

I ask because I'm completely baffled how people destroy these. Last house I looked at there was two left, one repairable, one obliterated the rest missing and a load of knobs missing from a wide range of furniture. The deposit didn't cover the damage or the 3 months rent they owed either. They changed the locks, then disappeared. They even took all the light bulbs. All the wheels/legs off the beds. Just bizarre stuff. Another house we're still discovering bits of the house they rewired.

But its the lockers I'm curious about. In almost every rental I see the lockers just don't survive very long. Like you I have mine about 10yrs. Weird. In future I'd advise not to bother with them.

No it isn't - in an earlier post you said:
"The reality is the cost in time and effort isn't recoverable from a tenant. Regardless of the theory."

I can understand the frustration of Landlords who get shafted because of dodgy tenants, but the answer isn't to treat every tenant thereafter as if they shafted you.

In regards to the locker question, I have answered it and I'm not sure what more you want from me.

I wouldn't expect to be changing any furniture, lockers or otherwise, more frequently then anyone else.

As to tenants disappearing? Had you no PPS numbers? Had you no references? Did you report them to the PRTB or the Gardai? If not then why not? Letting any tenant away with this type of behaviour is simply setting up another landlord for a fall and I am of the mind that there should be both a landlord and tenant register that highlights bad behaviour, much like the Credit bureau keeps a record of people who default on loans - if it's good enough for financial institutions to share this information why not the rental sector?

daltonmd

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Yes we do have standards you just don't feel they are high enough. The market determines the supply not the customer as such. If the demand is sufficiently low the market will not supply it. That is reality you need to learn to accept that and also learn the customer is not always right nor catered for. Customers are not magically overloards that get their hearts desires.

WW2 is the only reason that Germany has the rental market they have. Otherwise they would have more privately own property. The need for quick accomadation required big business which laws were brought in to regulate. They didn''t make some great choice and bring in some laws, they had no choice. They couldn't insist on furniture as there was none to provide.

In Ireland rental property comes furnished as in the UK. In France they charge a huge amount for a pint but don't here. Some things are just down to cultural differences and economics of that. Get over it as it will require a massive change in the market that will take decades and there isn't much desire.

Ray, the market is the customer, without them there would be no market. In Ireland property comes furnished because Landlords can write off these on their taxes, yet another part of the bubble that people forget about.

the_syco

daltonmd wrote: »

As to tenants disappearing? Had you no PPS numbers? Had you no references? Did you report them to the PRTB or the Gardai? If not then why not? Letting any tenant away with this type of behaviour is simply setting up another landlord for a fall and I am of the mind that there should be both a landlord and tenant register that highlights bad behaviour, much like the Credit bureau keeps a record of people who default on loans - if it's good enough for financial institutions to share this information why not the rental sector?

I'm unsure what use PPS numbers are in this case; I'd say that the data protection would prevent the authorities from using it to track the person. References are good, but doesn't help if the person breaks the lease. The Gardai... can't see them helping, as it'd be more of a civil matter. The PTRB will chase the landlord, but I've never heard of them chasing the tenant.