Terrifying state of Irish education

Qualitymark

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-our-school-system-is-broken-–-we-need-to-look-beyond-exams/

From thejournal.ie


THE STARTLING RATE at which the Irish school system is falling behind was highlighted in last December’s OECD’s PISA report:

* In a decade reading levels in Ireland have dropped from 5th to 17th.
* 23 per cent of male teenagers are functionally illiterate.
* In only three years Ireland’s math ranking has dropped from 16th to 26th place.

Also multinational heavyweights, such as Craig Barrett of Intel, John Herlihy of Google and Ray Stata of Analog Devices are no longer lauding the Irish educational system. They are speaking frankly of its serious deficiencies. They highlight their frustration in having to look abroad for the talents they require in Ireland, such as communication skills, understanding of interpersonal relationships, mastery of modern European languages, entrepreneurial skills, and common sense.
Studies, by Calvin Taylor of the University of Utah and others, have long established that the typical formal examination is capable of assessing only some one-quarter of those attributes that contribute to a person’s success in later life. Formal examinations are good for measuring mathematical and linguistic competence, but are less likely to detect those human characteristics associated with success as a citizen, an employee or a parent.
Because of Ireland’s narrow assessment system there is little scope for recognising or fostering such valuable characteristics as reliability, determination, entrepreneurship, intuition, common sense, sensitivity and consideration for others; characteristics vital for personal success and the well being of the community.
In 1972, when we were admitting the first 100 students to NIHE, Limerick from the group of over 1,000 who applied, we decided that, in addition to requiring achievement in the Leaving Certificate, applicants would be expected to submit an assessment by their teachers. The following is an extract from my diary3 for the year in which Limerick’s NIHE began admitting its first students:
Friday 7 January 1972
LIMERICK: A day designing student application forms. The Leaving Certificate alone does not identify communication ability, involvement in classroom activities, pursuit of independent study, critical and questioning attitude, personal responsibility, and consideration for others. Our form required teachers to give ratings under these headings.
The response told us that teachers had little difficulty in providing the assessments we required. Their judgement played a key role in the admission of what turned out to be an exceptional group of pioneering students.
In this we were reverting to an earlier era when educators were expected to focus on nurturing those personal skills and values that contribute to healthy and stable society, success at work and a caring family life. The narrowness of the Leaving Certificate curriculum and the tyranny of the CAO points-based system have produced a situation that neither fosters nor rewards those human characteristics that society most needs and employers cherish.
Many of the countries with the world’s best school systems rely, not on a centralised Leaving Certificate type examination, but on the continuous assessment of pupils by their teachers.
High achievement

Finland and Sweden both have long-established school-based assessment systems utilising a wide range of open-ended tasks and challenging classroom-based assignments. Such school-based assessments, embedded in the curriculum, are often cited as an important reason for the high levels of educational achievement in those countries.
School-based assessment has been the standard mode of assessment in Canadian schools for many years with teachers taking responsibility for all assessment processes and judgments at the school-level.
New Zealand also has a long history of school-based assessment and has developed a wide variety of teacher support materials.
It is fortunate that Ireland now has a capable, experienced and determined Minister for Education in Ruairí Quinn, who can be expected to see the merit in decreasing the dominance of the narrow, centralised Leaving Certificate exam and phasing in school-based teacher assessment, based on practice in those countries that have the world’s best school systems.
Ed Walsh returned to Ireland in 1970, a young man in a hurry, to set up an institute of education. He found a decaying mansion on a riverside site, gathered talented young people and secured funding from the World Bank and European Investment Bank to build what became the University of Limerick.
He is the author of the memoir recently published by The Collins Press, Upstart: friends, foes and founding a university. For more information, see edwalsh.ie.
Studies mentioned in this article:
Taylor, C. W. (1968). Cultivating new talents: A way to reach the educationally deprived. The Journal of Creative Behavior, 2, 83-90.
Taylor, C. W. (1986). Cultivating simultaneous student growth in both multiple creative talents and knowledge. In J. S. Renzulli (Ed.), Systems and Models for Developing Programs for the Gifted and Talented (pp. 307-350). Mansfield Center, CT: Creative Learning Press.

byhookorbycrook

Ed Walshe seems to love running the education system down. never tells us what he earns though.
As to INTEL etc, would they like to pay a higher rate of tax to help fund our education system?The American education system is not one I'd wish to ape.

Qualitymark

Never mind it being Ed Walsh, the figures are terrifying.

Finland has the best education system in the world; one of the things the Finns do is to hire the top graduates every year as teachers.

The Finns also have the smallest gap between the best and worst performing students in the world. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

byhookorbycrook

But we much prefer to follow England's lead and drown schools and teachers in paperwork.We cut special ed. and language provision and expect teachers in already overcrowded rooms to try and compensate. We make no provision for children with exceptional ability either.

Benicetomonty

Qualitymark wrote: »

Never mind it being Ed Walsh, the figures are terrifying.

Finland has the best education system in the world; one of the things the Finns do is to hire the top graduates every year as teachers.

The Finns also have the smallest gap between the best and worst performing students in the world. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

Finland also has a student/teacher ratio of 11-1 as opposed to our 20-1. Probably the most telling statistic of all tbh.

flatbackfour

Qualitymark wrote: »

Also multinational heavyweights, such as Craig Barrett of Intel, John Herlihy of Google and Ray Stata of Analog Devices are no longer lauding the Irish educational system. They are speaking frankly of its serious deficiencies. They highlight their frustration in having to look abroad for the talents they require in Ireland, such as communication skills, understanding of interpersonal relationships, mastery of modern European languages, entrepreneurial skills, and common sense..

I will never understand why we place so much emphesis on what multinational "heavyweights" think about our education system. Kids are not educated to be fodder for multinationals.

Studies, by Calvin Taylor of the University of Utah and others, have long established that the typical formal examination is capable of assessing only some one-quarter of those attributes that contribute to a person’s success in later life. Formal examinations are good for measuring mathematical and linguistic competence, but are less likely to detect those human characteristics associated with success as a citizen, an employee or a parent.

That right, so lets fund education properly to make the kind of pedagogic changes necessary. Massive funding on ICT will similar funding levels to match on teacher training in the kind of education your talking about. Total cost about 500 million initial outlay. plus further yearly outlay.

Finland and Sweden both have long-established school-based assessment systems utilising a wide range of open-ended tasks and challenging classroom-based assignments. Such school-based assessments, embedded in the curriculum, are often cited as an important reason for the high levels of educational achievement in those countries.
School-based assessment has been the standard mode of assessment in Canadian schools for many years with teachers taking responsibility for all assessment processes and judgments at the school-level.
New Zealand also has a long history of school-based assessment and has developed a wide variety of teacher support materials.

Finland and Sweden spend considerably more on education and have done so for the last 60 years. thier whole culture is different than ours.

It is fortunate that Ireland now has a capable, experienced and determined Minister for Education in Ruairí Quinn, who can be expected to see the merit in decreasing the dominance of the narrow, centralised Leaving Certificate exam and phasing in school-based teacher assessment, based on practice in those countries that have the world’s best school systems.

The same guy who cut foreign languege provision at primary level. Increased Pupil teacher ratios at primary level, as well as a host of other cuts. Your right an education visionary he is.

Ed Walsh returned to Ireland in 1970, a young man in a hurry, to set up an institute of education. He found a decaying mansion on a riverside site, gathered talented young people and secured funding from the World Bank and European Investment Bank to build what became the University of Limerick.

The same Ed Walsh who complains about teachers pay and increments etc yet is in receipt of a 100 grand plus pension. Dont make me sick.

Pete2012

I was at an inservice recently on literacy and numeracy.

The pisa study came up. Apparently

1. When this was given to Irish students they did not take it seriously, hardly attempted the questions, rushed it and hence the results. There was no importance placed on it.

Students doing it next year need to be told that they are representing their country and that they need to work hard during the test attempting every question.

2. Furthermore they mentioned that every other country had decreased in their ratings from previous years. The Department of Education did not tell us this. I think Finland was the country that came out tops. The Irish government failed to point out that the country that came out on top had unparalled investment in teaching resources. So we are not comparing like with like.

3. Students over the age of 16 if being disruptive should be asked to leave the school instead of disrupting the education of those that want to learn. Perhaps if that policy was adopted they might appreciate the chance they are getting to do a leaving cert.

ICANN

This is really worrying. I teach in the UK at the moment and the state of education over here scares me. In the future I would never send any child of mine to school here. The difference between better and worse schools is massive. They care more about data than actual education. Schools have business managers and finance managers- they are run like businesses rather than centres of communities. Students ages 15 can't spell simple words like 'thought'. I think the main problem is that education is run by people who have never actually taught a lesson. I really don't want Ireland going down the same route.

#15

ICANN wrote: »

I really don't want Ireland going down the same route.

Unfortunately, it is. There is a wealth of research out there on what the best countries do.
And yet the Dept. of Ed. is driving the Irish education system down the same road as the English system.

OP, I'm not exactly sure what is terrifying you?
Reading was average, Maths was below average and Science was above average.

PISA was a mixed bag for Ireland in the last round of assessments.

Mediocre might be a more accurate word than terrifying.

The reporting on education matters in this country is really substandard though. The poor quality analysis of PISA in the media is not at all helpful. They should cover it properly, or not at all. Reducing it to silly soundbites doesn't do the issue justice.

E.T.

This is taken from a post on another forum re PISA.

"Even OECD have stated that “performance changes [in PISA] are associated with a fairly large standard error”.(http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/13/46971917.pdf)

(...From same publishing re. Ireland's scores:)

DECLINES IN READING AND MATHEMATICS
Despite the strong showing in the PISA 2009 science tests, the Irish results in reading
and mathematics show declines when compared to previous rounds of PISA.

Irish students’ ranking in reading has fallen from 5th in the PISA league tables in 2000 to17th in 2009 among the 34 countries that participated in both rounds of PISA.

The ranking of Irish students in mathematics fell from 20th in 2003 to 26th in 2009 among the countries that participated in PISA in both of those years.

Extent and significance of the declines should be treated with caution
The extent of the falls in the reading and maths scores of students in Ireland was unexpected. Few educational systems have ever experienced actual changes in educational standards of the size reported for Ireland by PISA 2009 in such a relatively
short period of time.

In order to better understand the declines in reading and maths scores, the Department of Education and Skills commissioned national experts at Educational Research Centre and a team of international experts at Statistics Canada to conduct separate detailed analyses of the PISA 2009 results for Ireland.

The experts attribute some of the declines to changes in the profile of Ireland’s student population, including larger numbers of migrant students who do not speak English as a first language and greater inclusion of students with special educational needs in mainstream schools where the PISA tests were carried out. Ireland’s success in encouraging all students to remain in education for longer may also be reflected in the overall average scores of its students.

Other than for these students, the experts from Statistics Canada and Ireland’s ERC have advised that it is difficult to be certain that there is an underlying real decline in standards over time without further evidence. The available evidence shows stable standards over time in literacy and maths in Irish schools, so it is not possible to conclude definitively that standards in literacy and numeracy have fallen in Ireland."

Amazing how this aspect doesn't get reported very often.

Flashgordon197

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But we much prefer to follow England's lead and drown schools and teachers in paperwork.We cut special ed. and language provision and expect teachers in already overcrowded rooms to try and compensate. We make no provision for children with exceptional ability either.

They dont waste time on Inspections either

Powerhouse

flatbackfour wrote: »

I will never understand why we place so much emphesis on what multinational "heavyweights" think about our education system. Kids are not educated to be fodder for multinationals.

In theory it's true that kids are not educated to be fodder for multinationals but in practice many cannot see beyond them. That's why you get all the talk of honours Maths and learning foreign languages - because the view of so many is that the 'knowledge economy' manifests itself in lots of young people sitting behind PCs in the offices of a multi-national.

byhookorbycrook

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

They dont waste time on Inspections either

How do you mean?

E.T.

Teachers in Finland aren't inspected, and there's only one mandatory standardised test, around the age of 16.

Is this whole article just an excuse for Ed Walsh (who is well known for having extremely negative views of Irish teachers in general) to plug his new book?

Qualitymark

I'm horrified, not just by this article but by a series of reports on Irish education. It used to be that we had a peasant greed for learning, and would grab any chance of schooling. There seems now to be a contempt for education except among the upper and upper-middle classes.

To me, the most important thing about the Finnish study was the fact that there was little difference between the top and bottom performers. That is true education - lead all to excellence.

And no, I don't think we need to educate children as fodder for the multinationals. I would be a follower of Pearse in thinking that every child should be educated to be the best at what he or she loved to do, to explore his or her talents and creativity.

Qualitymark

Incidentally, I have several friends who are teachers; I have never met a group so universally discontented with their work.

E.T.

Maybe I've a particularly nice school and optimistic group of friends, but I've only come across two teachers in my adult life who are discontented with their work. I don't think anyone should stay teaching if they're not giving it all they can.

Discontented with class size, not being able to get any SNA support or Resource hours for children despite multiple professional reports, discontented with aggressive parents etc, but still absolutely love teaching despite this.

And very discontent with constant comments on the job from people/journalists who haven't set foot in a primary school since they were in school themselves.

Just reread this and it sounds very sanctimonious, but it's really how I feel!

zenno

It is a shock regarding the educational cuts and this is going to be a detriment for young people now in education. but listen to this person here, he makes a lot of sense in regard to education...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJAIERgWhZQ

2011abc

Anybody with eyes and half a brain could tell that the 'decline' in our educational standards is clearly due to aping the crumbling english system of paperwork/bureacracy and the dramatic change in the 'cohort' of students in irish schools over the last decade.

Qualitymark

2011abc wrote: »

Anybody with eyes and half a brain could tell that the 'decline' in our educational standards is clearly due to aping the crumbling english system of paperwork/bureacracy and the dramatic change in the 'cohort' of students in irish schools over the last decade.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/E900007-001/index.html

pog it

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But we much prefer to follow England's lead and drown schools and teachers in paperwork.We cut special ed. and language provision and expect teachers in already overcrowded rooms to try and compensate. We make no provision for children with exceptional ability either.

None of that matters compared to the poor quality candidates we have going teaching. It's almost like the politicians want brain dead voters.

byhookorbycrook

pog it wrote: »

None of that matters compared to the poor quality candidates we have going teaching. It's almost like the politicians want brain dead voters.

And you know this due to actual research or is it just something you decided?

pog it

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

And you know this due to actual research or is it just something you decided?

I know this from all the reports in recent years that have been conducted on behalf of the Dept of Education/the taxpayer. Some are mentioned here, others I have mentioned on the thread about teaching Irish properly. Regarding the candidates, the points for entry are far, far too low.

Overall Ireland is 'below average'. Now how is that good enough?

spurious

It's not good enough for this forum. Instead of 'all the reports', please quote exactly which report you are basing your replies on.

Please, read the charter and back up any future sweeping statements you make about standards in Irish education with academic citations.

Without doing so, you come across as a troll and if it continues you will be dealt with as a persistent troll would be.

#15

pog it wrote: »

Overall Ireland is 'below average'.

At what, exactly?

#15

pog it wrote: »

None of that matters compared to the poor quality candidates we have going teaching.

''Ireland is fortunate to have a high quality of teacher graduates''

Pasi Sahlberg.

But never mind him, he's only an expert on the world's best education systems. Pog it on the internet knows best.

Seriously, the education system isn't perfect - far from it - but you're not exactly being constructive or even accurate in your criticisms on this board.

Focalbhach

#15 wrote: »

At what, exactly?

Exactly what I was thinking. At what, compared to who, in what way?

pog it

spurious wrote: »

It's not good enough for this forum. Instead of 'all the reports', please quote exactly which report you are basing your replies on.

Please, read the charter and back up any future sweeping statements you make about standards in Irish education with academic citations.

Without doing so, you come across as a troll and if it continues you will be dealt with as a persistent troll would be.

I have had posts of mine on this forum deleted by a moderator. It's quite a new low. Should I expect more? I'd rather get an infraction and have them justify that, but no, they had the arrogance to delete my posts altogether.

Further, you mentioned in another thread ('teacher pay date (sic)') that I should watch my own spellings before I criticise a teacher's spelling of paid as 'payed' (and lack of punctuation, etc.) and then you immediately locked the thread.
Where on that thread did I not spell something properly?

I might be prone to the odd typo like anyone but I sure as hell can spell.

pog it

#15 wrote: »

''Ireland is fortunate to have a high quality of teacher graduates''

Pasi Sahlberg.

But never mind him, he's only an expert on the world's best education systems. Pog it on the internet knows best.

Seriously, the education system isn't perfect - far from it - but you're not exactly being constructive or even accurate in your criticisms on this board.

The OP mentioned the main report. What more do you want? Here were some stand out points:

• In a decade reading levels in Ireland have dropped from 5th to 17th.
• 23 per cent of male teenagers are functionally illiterate.
• In only three years Ireland’s math ranking has dropped from 16th to 26th place.

Focalbhach

pog it wrote: »

The OP mentioned the main report. What more do you want? Here were some stand out points:

• In a decade reading levels in Ireland have dropped from 5th to 17th.
• 23 per cent of male teenagers are functionally illiterate.
• In only three years Ireland’s math ranking has dropped from 16th to 26th place.

I presume you're referring to this report? It states that Irish 15 year olds scored at an average level on print reading, below average on maths and above average on science tests. Not brilliant, but hardly 'terrifying'.

You don't refer to the OECD-PISA digital reading scores, on which Ireland was above average. Nor do you refer to this or this, all based on the same study.

Have you read any of these reports?

pog it

Focalbhach wrote: »

I presume you're referring to this report? It states that Irish 15 year olds scored at an average level on print reading, below average on maths and above average on science tests. Not brilliant, but hardly 'terrifying'.

You don't refer to the OECD-PISA digital reading scores, on which Ireland was above average. Nor do you refer to this or this, all based on the same study.

Have you read any of these reports?

Some of us have higher standards than others. I consider the statistics that I posted absolutely and utterly appalling. Digital reading my hole, we have gone from 5th to 17th in reading, with the maths ranking (16th to 26th) the most diabolical statistic of the lot. Make whatever excuses up that you want, it's all there in black and white, teachers are falling way short of decent standards.

And it stands to reason. They are going into teaching for the security and the pay. Other people like myself are happy to tough it out in the private sector where we are subject to performance reviews, etc. I'm delighted the Indo is acting as a watchdog on your sector. The more people who become aware of these statistics the better.

I mean, how on earth can you defend the introduction of the Numeracy and Literacy programme? (Well I've no doubt you will still probably try). The teaching sector here has been disgraced by it and at the same time, outed. Don't think for a second that Irish people hold your sector in high esteem anymore. Those days are gone. We reserve respect for the good teachers, and people in communities generally are aware of who the good ones are because they are so few they stand out.

Focalbhach

‎

pog it wrote: »

Some of us have higher standards than others. I consider ‎the statistics that I posted absolutely and utterly appalling. Digital reading my hole, ‎we have gone from 5th to 17th in reading, with the maths ‎ranking (16th to 26th) the most diabolical statistic of the lot. Make whatever ‎excuses up that you want, it's all there in black and white, teachers are falling way ‎short of decent standards.

‎

‎"It's all there in black and white" only applies if you understand what you're looking ‎at, and I'm not sure you do. To raise just a few issues:‎

a) The 'rankings' are entirely devoid of information, beyond being a nice neat ‎soundbite. If you're actually, genuinely, interested in relative national performance, ‎look at the test scores and associated standard errors. Those scores tell you which ‎countries are performing at, above or below the international average, and by how ‎much.‎

b) From the looks of things you've decided on a conclusion and you're working ‎backwards to find evidence to fit. Is there a reason why you're deliberately ignoring ‎the above average science results? Even just to point them out as an aside? Is there a ‎reason why you're ignoring the digital reading results, which were done with the same ‎students as the print reading? Beyond the - forgive me - not very convincing "my ‎hole"?‎

c) Those reports point out potentially serious issues with the methodology, as well as ‎changes in the student population which would have had a direct impact on scores ‎‎(for example: I'm pretty happy that fewer kids are dropping out before the age of 15. ‎I gather you think it's a bad thing, as they lower the average score?). To dismiss these ‎without consideration as "making up excuses" suggests that you have no interest in ‎understanding the reported performance.‎


For the rest of your post: believe it or not, I'm not a teacher. The references to "your ‎sector" and other ranting are misplaced.‎

pog it

Focalbhach wrote: »

‎‎

‎"It's all there in black and white" only applies if you understand what you're looking ‎at, and I'm not sure you do. To raise just a few issues:‎

a) The 'rankings' are entirely devoid of information, ‎

Devoid of information? What are you taking? What agenda could they possibly have had then?

pog it

Focalbhach wrote: »

‎‎

‎b) From the looks of things you've decided on a conclusion and you're working ‎backwards to find evidence to fit. Is there a reason why you're deliberately ignoring ‎the above average science results? Even just to point them out as an aside? Is there a ‎reason why you're ignoring the digital reading results, which were done with the same ‎students as the print reading? Beyond the - forgive me - not very convincing "my ‎hole"?‎


‎

Yes. Because Maths and Reading are CORE. If they are not being taught properly then we have a serious problem. I don't need to work backwards to find evidence, it's all there, and it confirms what I have seen and am hearing up and down the country. Ask anyone who has any kind of standards (Yes, we are a diminishing crowd) and they will tell you that there is about one or two good teachers for every 5. We need to get smarter people who are also cut out for teaching to go teacher training. That's what the smart countries are doing.

Focalbhach

pog it wrote: »

Devoid of information? What are you taking? What agenda could they possibly have had then?

I thought I'd already covered this: they provide a nice neat soundbite. It's much, much easier for the media and bystanders to report a pretty-but-fairly-meaningless league table of rankings than to look at the detail behind it. As we have seen.

Focalbhach

pog it wrote: »

Yes. Because Maths and Reading are CORE.

Excellent. We're above average at digital reading, as reported by the OECD. It's the way of the future, don'tcha know.

#15

pog it wrote: »

The OP mentioned the main report. What more do you want? Here were some stand out points:

• In a decade reading levels in Ireland have dropped from 5th to 17th.
• 23 per cent of male teenagers are functionally illiterate.
• In only three years Ireland’s math ranking has dropped from 16th to 26th place.

Wait a second. Let me get this sequence straight. You make a point about teacher quality. I make a counter point, and you then respond with a quote about international assessments. Does that mean you accept you are wrong to make sweeping generalisations about a whole profession? Don't answer, btw.

The points you raise are a great example of the type of shallow reporting and substandard analysis that goes on in the national media.

(i) Reading levels have been completely stable. The standards are the same as they were ten years ago. What has happened is other countries have improved. To say that Ireland has declined is incorrect. 'Stood still' would be more accurate, although I'm not sure you are interested in accuracy. That does not mean it's ok to 'stand still', but there is a difference between standing still and declining.

(ii) What does that mean on its own? How do you know other countries aren't pushing towards 30%? 23% could be the highest or lowest figure - you haven't a clue what the implications are of that figure. As a quick example, and because these figures are easy to access at the minute, let's look at Germany and Sweden in comparison with Ireland. The PISA results state that the % of children reading below proficiency level 2 in Ireland is 17.2, compared to 18.5 and 17.4 in Germany and Sweden respectively. If you look at those reading below proficiency level 3, then the % for Irish children is 40.5, and 40.7 and 40.9 for Germany and Sweden respectively.
Now, I'll be honest and say I haven't access to the rest of the data at the minute - I will later - but those figures illustrate that Ireland is not way off international norms, as the media would have you believe. And which you seem to take at face value, for some reason.

Make whatever excuses up that you want, it's all there in black and white, teachers are falling way short of decent standards.

And it stands to reason. They are going into teaching for the security and the pay. Other people like myself are happy to tough it out in the private sector where we are subject to performance reviews, etc. I'm delighted the Indo is acting as a watchdog on your sector. The more people who become aware of these statistics the better.

I mean, how on earth can you defend the introduction of the Numeracy and Literacy programme? (Well I've no doubt you will still probably try). The teaching sector here has been disgraced by it and at the same time, outed. Don't think for a second that Irish people hold your sector in high esteem anymore. Those days are gone. We reserve respect for the good teachers, and people in communities generally are aware of who the good ones are because they are so few they stand out.

Oh right, you are one of those people. I'm outta here.

Focalbhach wrote: »

‎‎
For the rest of your post: believe it or not, I'm not a teacher. The references to "your ‎sector" and other ranting are misplaced.‎

Ditto.

byhookorbycrook

Pog it is (fada missing??) is Ed Walshe and I claim my prize.



At a recent symposium on the Government Strategy for Literacy and Numeracy in the University of Limerick, former President, Dr. Edward Walsh proposed a number of revisions to the current government strategy, the most controversial being the reintroduction of the Primary Certificate Examination, which all pupils in primary schools had to undergo until the mid 1960’s. Dr. Walsh recommended that the results should be published on an annual basis. Mr. John Walsh, Special Adviser to Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn, welcomed the proposal and stated that he would be recommending its adoption to the Minister and results would be made available in September each year, in a special supplement in the Irish Independent. The publication of this information would enable parents to make “informed decisions” regarding which primary school their children would attend.



Dr. Walsh also suggested that “payment by results” be reintroduced as part of a revised Croke Park agreement. This system, which was in use prior to the establishment of the Free State Government, could be adapted to accord with best practice in modern performance management. Enforcement of school compliance would be guaranteed through increased frequency of “incidental visits” by an inspectorate, divested of the burden of probating newly qualified teachers. Excel spreadsheets would be made available to Principals to monitor teacher performance and aggregated results would be submitted to Boards of Management and to the Department each term.



On the theme of Curriculum Development, in order to ensure higher achievement in PISA, Dr. Walsh recommended the discontinuance of the teaching of Irish in all schools, as the language had no commercial value. The Primary Certificate Examination would test pupils in three subjects: English, Mathematics and German, which would become second official language of the state, reflecting our present subservience to the Bundesbank. Some 19th century methodologies such as the use of Tally Sticks could be resurrected to encourage proficiency (Ve haff vays und means of making you write, RIGHT?) and Comenius projects would be encouraged, where exceptionally able pupils in DEIS schools would be offered EU scholarships to attend schools in Berlin for a period of one year or more.

Teaching of Drama, Art, SPHE, French and other lesser European languages would be confined to one half-hour period per week. Music should be limited to the study of Wagnerian opera. Debussy and other “airy fairy” composers and musicians would be proscribed under a revised Section 23.5a of the Education Act. Discreet time should be allocated to the core Primary Certificate subjects and the current policy of integration would be prohibited. “There’s no KO-HAW-HU in Bejing”, Dr. Walsh stated, adding that the NCCA should produce templates on its website to encourage teachers to teach to the test. Better results in PISA tests could also be achieved through annual excursions to Kilmacduagh in Co. Galway, where there is a leaning tower from which the contents of local septic tanks data could be projected in the direction of Finland. “The Finns wouldn’t know what hit them”, Dr Walsh declared.



In a related plan, Dr. Walsh echoed recommendations previously made by UCD economist Colm McCarthy, that schools in isolated rural areas should be closed. Dr. Walsh suggested that pupils could be transported to “Uberschoollen”, centres of excellence of 100 pupils or more. Economical modes of rail transport, similar to those used for transporting large volumes of people in Germany and Poland in the 1940’s should be considered. There was disused infrastructure available in some parts of the country, particularly in West Clare, where a pilot project could be initiated. As an added benefit, the prevalent regional tradition of set dancing could provide the basis for the development of a new Irish Goosestep. Union leaders could put this to good use in Anti-Austerity Marches, likely to become recurring events for the foreseeable future!



(Prompted by recent events and contributions to Networking)



Fröhliche Weihnachten!

vamos!

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Pog it is (fada missing??) is Ed Walshe and I claim my prize.



At a recent symposium on the Government Strategy for Literacy and Numeracy in the University of Limerick, former President, Dr. Edward Walsh proposed a number of revisions to the current government strategy, the most controversial being the reintroduction of the Primary Certificate Examination, which all pupils in primary schools had to undergo until the mid 1960’s. Dr. Walsh recommended that the results should be published on an annual basis. Mr. John Walsh, Special Adviser to Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn, welcomed the proposal and stated that he would be recommending its adoption to the Minister and results would be made available in September each year, in a special supplement in the Irish Independent. The publication of this information would enable parents to make “informed decisions” regarding which primary school their children would attend.



Dr. Walsh also suggested that “payment by results” be reintroduced as part of a revised Croke Park agreement. This system, which was in use prior to the establishment of the Free State Government, could be adapted to accord with best practice in modern performance management. Enforcement of school compliance would be guaranteed through increased frequency of “incidental visits” by an inspectorate, divested of the burden of probating newly qualified teachers. Excel spreadsheets would be made available to Principals to monitor teacher performance and aggregated results would be submitted to Boards of Management and to the Department each term.



On the theme of Curriculum Development, in order to ensure higher achievement in PISA, Dr. Walsh recommended the discontinuance of the teaching of Irish in all schools, as the language had no commercial value. The Primary Certificate Examination would test pupils in three subjects: English, Mathematics and German, which would become second official language of the state, reflecting our present subservience to the Bundesbank. Some 19th century methodologies such as the use of Tally Sticks could be resurrected to encourage proficiency (Ve haff vays und means of making you write, RIGHT?) and Comenius projects would be encouraged, where exceptionally able pupils in DEIS schools would be offered EU scholarships to attend schools in Berlin for a period of one year or more.

Teaching of Drama, Art, SPHE, French and other lesser European languages would be confined to one half-hour period per week. Music should be limited to the study of Wagnerian opera. Debussy and other “airy fairy” composers and musicians would be proscribed under a revised Section 23.5a of the Education Act. Discreet time should be allocated to the core Primary Certificate subjects and the current policy of integration would be prohibited. “There’s no KO-HAW-HU in Bejing”, Dr. Walsh stated, adding that the NCCA should produce templates on its website to encourage teachers to teach to the test. Better results in PISA tests could also be achieved through annual excursions to Kilmacduagh in Co. Galway, where there is a leaning tower from which the contents of local septic tanks data could be projected in the direction of Finland. “The Finns wouldn’t know what hit them”, Dr Walsh declared.



In a related plan, Dr. Walsh echoed recommendations previously made by UCD economist Colm McCarthy, that schools in isolated rural areas should be closed. Dr. Walsh suggested that pupils could be transported to “Uberschoollen”, centres of excellence of 100 pupils or more. Economical modes of rail transport, similar to those used for transporting large volumes of people in Germany and Poland in the 1940’s should be considered. There was disused infrastructure available in some parts of the country, particularly in West Clare, where a pilot project could be initiated. As an added benefit, the prevalent regional tradition of set dancing could provide the basis for the development of a new Irish Goosestep. Union leaders could put this to good use in Anti-Austerity Marches, likely to become recurring events for the foreseeable future!



(Prompted by recent events and contributions to Networking)



Fröhliche Weihnachten!

Do you know what byhook, I like this plan... I am a German teacher and might finally get more that a career break or sick leave!
Not quite sure what a tally-stick is... I must be one of the poorly educated stupid people who have been hired on huge wages to ruin the country and dumb down the children!

pog it

Focalbhach wrote: »

I thought I'd already covered this: they provide a nice neat soundbite. It's much, much easier for the media and bystanders to report a pretty-but-fairly-meaningless league table of rankings than to look at the detail behind it. As we have seen.

You thought you had covered that? Lol.

pog it

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Pog it is (fada missing??) !

No, I didn't mean pog it fada.... try again. Hint: This time remember that 'fada' is an adjective..

pog it

vamos! wrote: »

Do you know what byhook, I like this plan... I am a German teacher and might finally get more that a career break or sick leave!
Not quite sure what a tally-stick is... I must be one of the poorly educated stupid people who have been hired on huge wages to ruin the country and dumb down the children!

Or maybe you are one of the minority of good teachers in Ireland. We certainly can't tell from here, that's why we go by the reports. So now we are 'standing still'. Right!

By the way the crisis is more in primary school teaching than in secondary school teaching and easily explained. Those who do secondary school teaching teach a subject they usually have a genuine interest and ability in. That said it still doesn't stop some of the utterly talentless from passing through the system.

P.S Ye all seem really obsessed with Ed Walsh! lol. I don't like everything he says either but he does have the country as his priority, which makes a change.

#15

pog it wrote: »

We certainly can't tell from here, that's why we go by the reports. So now we are 'standing still'.

No rebuttal then, just more *unsubstantiated* rubbish and dismissals.

Focalbhach

pog it wrote: »

You thought you had covered that? Lol.

Since we're on the subject, that's a lovely illustration of the phrase 'devoid of content'... much like the "my hole" rationale for dismissing digital reading (and science) scores.

pog it wrote: »

By the way the crisis is more in primary school teaching than in secondary school teaching and easily explained.

I assume you have something you're basing that claim on, besides your own perception?

pog it

#15 wrote: »

No rebuttal then, just more rubbish and dismissals.

Yep, utter rubbish and dismissals... the OECD report was a set-up! Ed Walsh was behind it! lol

#15

pog it wrote: »

Yep, utter rubbish and dismissals... the OECD report was a set-up!l

I've read the OECD report cover-to-cover.

I suggest that if you don't understand it, and you don't, to stop citing it as evidence.

I haven't the time or inclination to help you dig deeper into comparative international assessments, because I would guess that you are happy to rely on a soundbite from one article on one PISA study.

I will leave you with a link to a short article on the PISA results. It was written to warn against people like you, who prefer simplicity and generalities in their discussion of large scale assessments. It's amazing how statistical experts can never narrow down huge data sets, like the PISA results, into one single generalised statement, yet internet angrymen possess the power to do so.

The recent results from the PISA surveys have got a lot of attention. In somewhat apocalyptic terms, the Irish Times referred to “2010: the year Irish education fell to earth” and invited reader’s opinions on Ireland’s “Falling literacy levels” though the Irish Independent did carry a more balanced assessment. A careful analysis of the data reveals a more complex picture.

Firstly, these assessments do not show in absolute terms how well or badly our students are doing since in each wave the data are normed to have a mean of 500 and a standard deviation of 100. Comparing the results for 2000 and 2009 will not tell us whether our current 15 year olds know more or less than the equivalent cohort 9 years earlier. It just shows where they are relative to students in other countries. So even if our current 15 year olds have slipped in the rankings, they might actually be better academically than the earlier Irish cohort but have simply been leap-frogged by other countries. Let us not forget that results in public exams have been trending up. Maybe it’s grade inflation, maybe not.

Of course rankings do matter, for example foreign investors may only care about the relative skills of countries’ workforce. However when our rankings fall, as they have recently, there may be a tendency to use this as a stick to beat the education system. But it can hardly be to blame if our students are actually learning more but other countries simply got better.

Secondly, PISA includes a diverse range of countries including, for example, Liechtenstein, Kyrgyzstan and Macau. With no disrespect to these, should we really care where we stand relative to them? Does it not make more sense to pay much more attention to countries which are more relevant to us economically and/or are simply bigger?

Thirdly, PISA has changed significantly since it started. In 2000, there were 32, largely OECD countries. This grew to 41 in 2003 and in 2006, which focused on science there were 57 countries. The latest wave has 64 countries – some are actually territories. So when you look at a ranking, you are counting how far you are from the top. But one could equally look at how far one is from the bottom. Now as other countries join, it’s likely some will come in above us and some below. So the ranking can be misleading. Looking at how far we are from the bottom might tell a different story. A fairer comparison over time would just compare us with those countries that were in with us from the beginning and indeed some commentators have looked at our rankings just with the OECD.

To look closer at this consider the reading results. In 2000, PISA put our students between 3rd and 9th (out of 32). For statistical reasons, they didn’t give exact rankings but let’s take 6th place as an average. That puts us in about the top 20% of countries. By 2009 our ranking had slipped to 21st. That may seem a precipitous decline but there are twice as many countries in the frame: we are now only in about the top one third. So while it is nothing to be happy about, it’s not quite the disaster it appears at first blush. Mathematical skills are often seen as being particularly important, so where do we stand? In 2000 we were ranked between 16th and 19th , in around the top 55% of countries. In 2009 that had fallen to 20th but given that there are more countries we are just about in the top half: arguably this is an improvement. Looking at the science results tells a similar story.

So the point is that one has to be careful to jumping to conclusions about how our students and schools are doing from simplistic comparisons. When one studies the detailed reports produced by the OECD it becomes obvious that there is far more information than hits the headlines. The research is particularly informative on issues of socio-economic disadvantage. In all countries, those students from a better-off background do better but the extent to which this is the case differs markedly. In a fascinating analysis, the OECD considers what it defines as “resilient” students, these are students who are in the bottom quarter on the socio-economic scale but who perform in the top quarter in the assessments. It is a good summary of the extent to which young people are not held back by their background. So who tops this particular league table? It is dominated by the Far East, the top 7 are (in order) Shanghai, Hong Kong, Korea, Macau, Singapore, Finland and Japan. And us ? Ireland is pretty average, ahead of the US, the UK and many European countries though not by much. That we are way ahead of Kazakhstan, Panama or Dubai in this respect seems scant consolation.

Anger, we have been advised, does not constitute a policy. Neither do simplistic statistics or headlines. Ireland faces particular challenges in adapting its educational system to changing needs and technologies, a changing international economy and a much less favourable fiscal situation. It is imperative then that we carefully monitor the extent to which educational resources produces results, how we fare relative to our competitors and the extent to which our schools mitigate or reproduce social inequities.

http://kevindenny.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/irelands-pisa-results-myth-and-reality/

pog it

You are using the old argument style of accusing me of doing what exactly you yourself are doing in order to discredit my stance on this. You have taken your own interpretation of the facts to suit your own stance on it. I am looking at how we figure internationally and we are a developed country getting deplorable results which nobody could seriously defend.

We have poorer candidates going teaching. Apart from a minority. The rest of us chose the private sector where we would be challenged more and have to perform well.
In my father's generation the best students took teaching jobs, back wh it was a true profession, and funnily enough, the best teachers in my own secondary school were the older generation, with standards deteriorating as the teachers got younger. And I don't reckon this was a one-off case though I'm sure somebody will try to argue that too.

Further, I actually know and know of several people who have gone teaching in more recent years and I went to school with some of them so I know what standard is going in. It wasn't the brightest students who went teaching. I have also been told by my friend who is a teacher about what standards are out there. Go have a look at the other thread about how to teach Irish differently- there are actual testimonies on that thread about poor standards in teaching by CONCERNED teachers- those who give a damn.

All the evidence is there, firstly the reports which are key, but also what I have witnessed myself, what good discerning teachers are saying, etc. etc. The evidence is mounting. Can I remind you of the
NUMERACY AND LITERACY PROGRAMME? Resulting in the modern languages initiative being axed... shame on ye.

Explain away that one with another blog entry.

byhookorbycrook

pog it wrote: »

No, I didn't mean pog it fada.... try again. Hint: This time remember that 'fada' is an adjective..

Póg? or some obscure English word?A fada is the widely used name of the long vowel side.

Focalbhach

pog it wrote: »

All the evidence is there, firstly the reports which are key

What reports, plural, are you talking about?? Still awaiting an answer on that.

pog it wrote: »

also what I have witnessed myself

That is not evidence in any meaningful sense. Neither is what I have witnessed anecdotally.

Focalbhach wrote: »

‎‎
(for example: I'm pretty happy that fewer kids are dropping out before the age of 15. ‎I gather you think it's a bad thing, as they lower the average score?)

By the way, this wasn't entirely a rhetorical question - I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this and similar considerations.

vamos!

pog it wrote: »

We have poorer candidates going teaching. Apart from a minority. The rest of us chose the private sector where we would be challenged more and have to perform well.
In my father's generation the best students took teaching jobs, back wh it was a true profession, and funnily enough, the best teachers in my own secondary school were the older generation, with standards deteriorating as the teachers got younger. And I don't reckon this was a one-off case though I'm sure somebody will try to argue that too.

Further, I actually know and know of several people who have gone teaching in more recent years and I went to school with some of them so I know what standard is going in. It wasn't the brightest students who went teaching. I have also been told by my friend who is a teacher about what standards are out there. Go have a look at the other thread about how to teach Irish differently- there are actual testimonies on that thread about poor standards in teaching by CONCERNED teachers- those who give a damn.

All the evidence is there, firstly the reports which are key, but also what I have witnessed myself, what good discerning teachers are saying, etc. etc. The evidence is mounting. Can I remind you of the
NUMERACY AND LITERACY PROGRAMME? Resulting in the modern languages initiative being axed... shame on ye.

Have you any idea how qualified a lot teachers actually are? 1 in 3 on my PGDE course had a Masters. That was a few years ago so I imagine the number has risen. Would you suggest that teachers need to be educated to doctorate level, subsidised by the State ? Should teachers be granted access to BEds based on whether fellow pupils thought they were 'bright'or based on Leaving Cert results? Should those who apply for the PGDE be judged on their BA results or should they stand in front of a crowd and have them judge their intelligence and aptitude for their subjects? Maybe we should just ask the smart people of the private sector if we are smart enough... oh and if we are old enough because somebody in their 20's couldn't possibly be intelligent enough to teach?

Dave0301

pog it wrote: »

We have poorer candidates going teaching. Apart from a minority. The rest of us chose the private sector where we would be challenged more and have to perform well.

You need to stop trying to make this into a private sector Vs public sector debate as it's coming across as if you have a chip on your shoulder!

As a secondary school student I was lucky enough to do naturally well and thought meh teachers have it handy!

I've a great interest in science but soon realized that I didn't want to be in a lab all day for my career, hence my interest in science teaching, my subjects being maths and physics to leaving cert level.

Until the day the shoe was on the other foot I still thought teachers had it easy....Hindsight is a wonderful thing:eek:

Until you stand up in front of anything to 23-30+ students in a math class with such a myriad set of abilities and possible learning difficulties, no amount of reports and stats can paint a truly accurate picture.

Don't get me wrong I agree that some teachers can be found lacking and a more stringent system of teacher assessment would be beneficial to everyone! But I find it hard to see how someone with only a student orientated view of how education works can be an expert.

It's like me saying pfffft, I knew this recession was coming. I could have tidied that up if I was in the private sector :cool: