The "new" Routemaster, any thoughts?

Victor

I really don't like the lack of a substantial landing at the bottom of the stairs, which is a problem it has in common with the new Berlin double deckers. However, at least the London one has the window to improve visibility.


http://busverkehr.startbilder.de/name/einzelbild/number/26490/kategorie/Berlin~Busse~DL_07.html
http://busverkehr.startbilder.de/name/galerie/kategorie/Berlin~Busse~DL_07/digitalfotografie/24.html

LordSutch

MYOB wrote: »

I believe all new DB buses from now on (and they actually are ordering some) will be dual door again.

Whether they'll run the second door is another matter unfortunately...

As far as I am aware this has been a problem since the 70s when dual door busses were first introduced to Dublin. I actually remember being on holiday in London in the 80s and using the front doors to enter (& the back doors to alight), I then came back to Dublin only to find the back (middle) doors bunged up with fag ends, used tickets & luggage

I understand that there have been serious issues here in Dublin with Unions re the use of the middle doors, its been up in the air for decades, many wranglings & disputes about the use of, so if Dublin bus re-introduce the middle doors I wonder how can these long standing issues be resolved ?

AngryLips

markpb wrote: »

You're dead right OP but never fear, someone will be along soon with the excerpts from the Dublin Bus classic: Why That Works Everywhere But It Wouldn't Work Here.

Wasn't this the attitude that was used to justify the new routemaster being built in the first place? The rhetoric reported in the UK press being something along the lines of "inappropriate German built busses" etc etc in Johnson's election campaign...

AlekSmart

LordSutch wrote: »

I understand that there have been serious issues here in Dublin with Unions re the use of the middle doors, its been up in the air for decades, many wranglings & disputes about the use of, so if Dublin bus re-introduce the middle doors I wonder how can these long standing issues be resolved ?

I would venture to suggest that the "Issues" surrounding multiple door operation have actually worsened in the recent past.

There is,in fact,only a single issue,Safety.

There is not now and never has been a Union "Ban" on centre door use.

The "Ban",such as it was/is related to the company making it compulsory for a Driver to use all doors at every stop.

This blanket policy and instruction was always going to be fraught with difficulty in a City with as low a level of Bus Stop Parking Restriction observance as Dublin has.

Added to this is the continuing problem of poorly designed Stops and Bus Bays,many of which were originally designed for rear entrance conductor operated services.

It is this "Compulsion" issue which was adjudicated upon by the Labour Court,whose recommendation still stands and acts as the standing-order for multi-door use.

Effectively the Labour Court found that the Company could not unilaterally issue a blanket instruction to Drivers regarding Multi-Door operation,however there is no problem, and never was,with a Driver operating multiple doors when that driver considers it is safe to so do.

It was a commonsense judgement and was intended to pave the way for some serious design and implementation work,which unsurprisingly,never happened.

So,just to be clear on the issue,there is no Union "Ban" on a Driver using the centre door,but neither is there a compulsion on him/her to use them.

Hopefully the NTA can continue as it has started and address the serious issues re Bus Stop design and location and then perhaps also seek to impose order on the Taxi Rank chaos in and around Bus Stops......;)

LXFlyer

TfL are ahead of the game on this and have issued standards on:

Bus Stop Design

Bus Route Safety

The former sets out the basic design spec - much of which is frankly ignored here, and the latter even includes a maximum number of ramps that any bus route can have to cross - 5! Whither routes 14 and 75 in that scenario?

Would that we had such enlightened road engineers here.

LXFlyer

As an addendum, one would wonder how the TfL engineers would view the current situation that prevails on St Stephen's Green North, Merrion Row and Dawson Street where any access to bus stops after 8pm on Friday/Saturday nights is impossible due to all the taxis parked in the bus stop area.

In two of the above cases the taxi rank runs through the bus stop markings!

Madness.

LordSutch

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would venture to suggest that the "Issues" surrounding multiple door operation have actually worsened in the recent past.

It is this "Compulsion" issue which was adjudicated upon by the Labour Court,whose recommendation still stands and acts as the standing-order for multi-door use.

So,just to be clear on the issue,there is no Union "Ban" on a Driver using the centre door,but neither is there a compulsion on him/her to use them.

Hopefully the NTA can continue as it has started and address the serious issues re Bus Stop design and location and then perhaps also seek to impose order on the Taxi Rank chaos in and around Bus Stops......;)

Wow! so if a driver decides that he doesnt want to use the middle doors, then he doesn't, what a farce

No wonder there is such a mess surrounding the use of middle/rear doors on Dublin Bus.

markpb

LordSutch wrote: »

Wow! so if a driver decides that he doesnt want to use the middle doors, then he doesn't, what a farce No wonder there is such a mess surrounding the use of middle/rear doors on Dublin Bus.

If I remember correctly, the LRC said that DB could not force a driver to use the middle/rear doors because if they (the driver) did and there was an accident, they (the driver) could be held personally responsible. This is crazy but the LRC's response seems perfectly reasonable.

However it seems that most drivers (except our Alex) *never* open the middle/rear doors, even when it's perfectly safe to do so. I commuted by DB for four years and, with the exception of a few bus stops around the city centre, there was nothing stopping the bus pulling up parallel to the kerb but they didn't and never used the doors (where they existed).

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

As an addendum, one would wonder how the TfL engineers would view the current situation that prevails on St Stephen's Green North, Merrion Row and Dawson Street where any access to bus stops after 8pm on Friday/Saturday nights is impossible due to all the taxis parked in the bus stop area.

In two of the above cases the taxi rank runs through the bus stop markings!

Madness.

Very True lxflyer,and not something which can be solved by hi-technology either...RTPI,ITS and Nuclear Energy cannot replace a small bit of law enforcement here,however,I suspect Hell will freeze before we see any improvement here.

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

However it seems that most drivers (except our Alex) *never* open the middle/rear doors, even when it's perfectly safe to do so. I commuted by DB for four years and, with the exception of a few bus stops around the city centre, there was nothing stopping the bus pulling up parallel to the kerb but they didn't and never used the doors (where they existed).

It's not really an issue any longer,with an almost 100% single door fleet.

Another point is that passengers would often automatically pas the open Centre Door on their way to the front one....:D

I would sometimes announce that any "passengers wishing to complain to the driver,please use the centre exit"......never failed to work !!

LordSutch

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's not really an issue any longer,with an almost 100% single door fleet.

Another point is that passengers would often automatically pas the open Centre Door on their way to the front one....:D

I would sometimes announce that any "passengers wishing to complain to the driver,please use the centre exit"......never failed to work !!

I wonder what would happen (God forbid) in an accident or fire which involved the front doors on a Dublin bus being jammed shut :cool:

corktina

emergency doors and windows are provided.

SandyfordGuy

There was one driver who used to be on the 4's in the mornings who would use the second set of doors all the time. Had a very British accent!

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the LRC said that DB could not force a driver to use the middle/rear doors because if they (the driver) did and there was an accident, they (the driver) could be held personally responsible. This is crazy but the LRC's response seems perfectly reasonable.

However it seems that most drivers (except our Alex) *never* open the middle/rear doors, even when it's perfectly safe to do so. I commuted by DB for four years and, with the exception of a few bus stops around the city centre, there was nothing stopping the bus pulling up parallel to the kerb but they didn't and never used the doors (where they existed).

Well I would suggest Mark if the system were to work it has to be all stops or no stops. "Some" stops will just cause confusion.

For the former to happen every bus stop needs to be addressed with properly designed roadspace with sufficient room to pull in and out, and bus stops correctly positioned.

I can think of countless stops in Dublin that do not even come close to meeting any of the standards in that TfL document.

Going Forward

Pity they didnt go with the look of one of these babies:

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/bus-designs-415x302.jpg

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12/bus_664x450.jpg

LordSutch

Going Forward wrote: »

Pity they didnt go with the look of one of these babies:

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/bus-designs-415x302.jpg

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12/bus_664x450.jpg

I've wondered about this, and I can only guess that they threw out all the Routemaster 'look alikes' because A/ Passenger capacity was too low. B/ Two doors isnt enough for a 21st century bus. C/ Hop on Hop off may or may not be allowed 24/7, which would leave only one set of doors, hence the BFL chosen which looks nothing like a Routemaster, but it ticks all the boxes which all the Routemaster 'look alikes' dont, plus the chosen BFL will always have at least two set of functioning doors, with the addition of the Hop on/ hop off 9pm-5pm on weekdays . . . . .

CIE

LordSutch wrote: »

I wonder what would happen (God forbid) in an accident or fire which involved the front doors on a Dublin bus being jammed shut :cool:

Better remember where the doors marked "Éalú" are.

LordSutch

CIE wrote: »

Better remember where the doors marked "Éalú" are.

Isnt that the little emergency door at the back, two feet up in the air (behind the rear wheel)? Not ideal on its own for quick exiting 90 or 100 passengers in a hurry? hence my original point about having at least two sets of easily accessible doors on a large capicity double decker . . .

Admittedly I'm not in the business, so its just an opinion.

PS: The new BFL is slowly growing on me

shannon_tek

There nice not what i expected. Prefered them on paper

afatbollix

I cant wait for this bus to be introduced.

Everyone uses a oyster card as it is double the price to pay by cash ( you can even pay by a note!)

In the city centre where these buses will be used it is just a traffic jam. The hop on hop off is a great idea and the majority for people will tag on with there oyster card!

Best thing about London buses is that at my local bus stop it tells me that the bus will be there at 09:05 it will be there at 09:05 and if early it will wait until it is on time again I have to say I have nearly never had a late bus.


But then they have 8 million people to move around!

dublinman1990

Here is something unusual, I tried the view the latest video on the borismaster on the Transport For London's youtube channel. But, I got an email saying the video is available, But now it say's the video is private.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40E7NI91u1w&feature=uploademail

LordSutch

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XYbjzeUbw_M/TeAHoT-lqXI/AAAAAAAAFTw/uHr71KigcMU/s1600/boris_2.png

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/06/01/IMG_0011s_01-1280x994_610x474.jpg

http://www.urban75.org/blog/images/london-routemaster-bus.jpg

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/22/article-1324542076519-0F32C4C300000578-146625_466x310.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cweFwdSSa08/TedSEY8XrwI/AAAAAAAADuw/C9b3WN00Ct0/s1600/New+RM+cgi.jpg

http://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/upload%20SnJ37/New%20Routemaster/_49898444_dsc_0092.jpg

http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/sites/default/files/heatherwick_studio_lightbox_new_london_bus.jpg

cmerush2dstars

I know this thread is about the new London buses, but I think the main problem for not having two/three doors on Dublin Bus is that in would increase the number of fare evaders. When I lived in Switzerland you either had a special card you validated each time you boarded, these were fix priced cards you could buy, or you bought your ticket in a machine at the bus stop. And only if there was no machine or you really didn't have time to buy a ticket, which rarely happened as the buses always arrived bang on time, did you buy a ticket off the bus driver. If they introduced a similar system into Dublin, then maybe a two/three bus system would work. Until then, you will many people who will just not pay and go through the middle door.

Also another thing that was great in Switzerland (I was in Lausanne) was the fact that almost all their buses were single story, bendy buses will lots of doors and space and there was special panels at the doors that, if someone was standing on it, would prevent the door opening/closing. And it was the people on or getting on the bus, not the driver, who controlled door opening/closing, which means sometimes every door on the bus would be open and other times it was only one door which was open, depending on who got on/off the bus.

It the Dublin Buses adopted similar practice on their buses people would use them more, they would be safer and they would take less time to get from A to B.

devnull

As much as I love bendy buses and seen how well they work in other countries, apart from a few routes, generally the infrastructure in this country is simply not adequate for them.

Run_to_da_hills

devnull wrote: »

As much as I love bendy buses and seen how well they work in other countries, apart from a few routes, generally the infrastructure in this country is simply not adequate for them.

The "new" Routemaster dosen't bend.

gbob

I've been really looking forward to the release of these new RM's since first hearing of them, sure the only thing they have in common with the original is the rear platform, but the ONLY reason the old RM's were withdrawn was the rear platform, I drove the RM's on the 137 & 159 in London in the mid 90's and even then LT were only permitted to continue using them whilst they remained serviceable, and the design simplicity and reliability of them ensured they lasted 40 plus years ! Unfortunately, I can't see these modern ones lasting as well.

Cookie_Monster

gbob wrote: »

Unfortunately, I can't see these modern ones lasting as well.

Neither do I. Funny how the modern stuff doesn't seem to last nearly as long anymore as stuff built 50-70's, be it bus or otherwise

LordSutch

Great news for Wrightbus of Ballymena > Boris Johnson has officially been re-elected as Lord Mayor of London.

It really is great news for the Northern Ireland Bus & Coach makers. Boris in conjunction with TFL (Transport for London) now have free reign to order as many "Borismasters" from Wrightbus as they want! (Defeated Ken Livingstone vowed to scrap the Borismaster if elected), so it should be happy days for the Ballymena Bus manufacturer in the coming years, as up to six hundred of these unique Hybrids may be ordered by TFL for various London routes.



Pictured above is LT2 which is one of three prototypes (LT1, LT2, LT6) now running on the Hackney-Victoria on route 38 in London.
The final five (of eight) diesel-electric prototypes are due to arrive in London from Ballymena before the end of May.

dowlingm

One wonders if the loss of Con seats at the Assembly will cause Labour to obstruct Boris on this, or whether they will choose other issues to clip his wings.

AlekSmart

Definitely good news for Wrightbus as BJ's election manifesto commited him to ordering 600 LT spec vehicles over an extended timeframe as replacement vehicles.

What many people fail to grasp is the huge achievement by Wrights in bringing this project from Concept to In-Service use in a very short time-frame indeed.

I'm not a huge fan of hybrid or indeed,much of the supposed "Green" stuff being pushed at the momernt,but this really is an example of good solid engineering of the best type !!

Going Forward

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Neither do I. Funny how the modern stuff doesn't seem to last nearly as long anymore as stuff built 50-70's, be it bus or otherwise

Ne're a truer word said.

LordSutch

Breaking News, Thursday, 20 September 2012

600 new Wrightbuses being ordered for London!

Well its finally come true and the decision has finally been secured. Six hundred of the new Hybrid 'Borismaster' buses are to be manufactured by the Northern Ireland firm between now and 2016. Great news for Wrightbus > http://www.u.tv/News/600-new-Wrightbuses-for-London/1b788643-ff40-49c8-a461-fed2fdceac52

The first thrity buses off the production line will join the existing eight prototypes on the streets of London by April of next year . . .

dublinman1990

I've found this programme while reading next week's TV & Satellite Weekly Magazine on Thursday night.

The Route Masters: Running London's Roads - BBC2 & BBC2 HD 9pm.

This is a six part documentary starting from Tuesday 18th June. I'm hoping it will feature something about the new Borismasters in future episodes as well as featuring the day to day operations of TFL.

Episode 1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02yyh1c

The programme title grabbed my attention as it could have been the actual bus itself; including the newer creations. I will say it would appeal to most people as very interesting. We will just have to keep our eyes out for that one.

BenShermin

Really looking forward to that one, the recent Tube and National Rail documentaries on the BBC were fantastic.

I'm going to find myself in London this Sunday afternoon/Evening. I know the Borrismaster runs on the 38 route, but does anyone know if it runs in weekends? I'd love a trip on it.

AlekSmart

BenShermin wrote: »

Really looking forward to that one, the recent Tube and National Rail documentaries on the BBC were fantastic.

I'm going to find myself in London this Sunday afternoon/Evening. I know the Borrismaster runs on the 38 route, but does anyone know if it runs in weekends? I'd love a trip on it.

Yes indeed Ben,the 38's allocation of LT's are in service throughout the schedule.

I understand there may be a couple away for upgrades/mods but the remainder can be found in 24/7 service (Remember the 38 is a 24 hour service)

There is a very handy little tool here which can be used to gain an appreciation of how different TfL's interpretation of a Public Bus Service is from our own....;)

All you need to do is enter the relevant route number,or to narrow the field a little,the fleet number....

http://londonvf.co.uk/index.php

LordSutch

I seem to remember being on a Borismaster on a Sunday this time last year! But I can't say for sure if all eight prototypes are included in the weekend timetable (route 38) this year? If you were going to London on or after the 22nd of this month you would also be able to catch a Borismaster on route 24 which is due to accept a delivery of twenty five/thirty new ones for a full Borismaster conversion on that route.

Travel tip: An 'Oyster card' is alway good to have when travelling on the NBFL as it enables you to hop on the rear platform
(cash paying passengers must enter by the front doors)

Enjoy your trip, they're great buses.

AlekSmart

LordSutch wrote: »

I seem to remember being on a Borismaster on a Sunday this time last year! But I can't say for sure if all eight prototypes are included in the weekend timetable (route 38) this year? If you were going to London on or after the 22nd of this month you would also be able to catch a Borismaster on route 24 which is due to accept a delivery of twenty five/thirty new ones for a full Borismaster conversion on that route.

Travel tip: An 'Oyster card' is alway good to have when travelling on the NBFL as it enables you to hop on the rear platform
(cash paying passengers must enter by the front doors)

Enjoy your trip, they're great buses.

They are,I feel,going to eventually be seen as a "Great" Bus.

Perhaps unfortunately they have become far too associated with Lord Mayor BoJo,which tends to split the regard along Political lines.

However full credit of Boris for being astute enough to see the huge step forward in design/engineering terms which the BfL incorporated on the drawing board,not many politicians would have had the interest to even glance in that direction.

The TfL team responsible for the concept,managed to turn the entire design process on it's head,and full credit to Wright's for being nimble enough to turn those design requirements into prototype and production models in such a rapid timeframe.

BTW,the 24 route converts in one fell swoop on Sat 22nd and will be followed,in September,by the 11 route.

dfx-

AlekSmart wrote: »

All you need to do is enter the relevant route number,or to narrow the field a little,the fleet number....

http://londonvf.co.uk/index.php

When I am King of the World, this is being drafted in for Dublin..

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

When I am King of the World, this is being drafted in for Dublin..

No bells,no whistles....it just works !

Perhaps our new IT Universities will deliver such stuff to the masses....er ok,just us then ??

The King is Dead,Long live the King !!!

BenShermin

Thanks lads, having travelled on one of the heritage routemasters a few months ago in London it'll be nice to jump onto the back of one of the 21st century ones this time around.

LordSutch

Ah good, and make sure you have an Oyster card (to jump on the back of the NBFL).

Please let us know how you get on.

joegriffinjnr

BBC2 tonight at 9pm looks interesting, or if you are in to aviation tune in from 8pm.

LordSutch

"Season 1 Episode 3 of 4
Direct from Heathrow, Dallas Campbell finds out about the hundreds of markings that must be painted onto every plane and there is a report on a long-haul flight being prepared for take-off". Good programme no doubt, but totally bereft of any reference to the New Routemaster )

AlekSmart

LordSutch wrote: »

"Season 1 Episode 3 of 4
Direct from Heathrow, Dallas Campbell finds out about the hundreds of markings that must be painted onto every plane and there is a report on a long-haul flight being prepared for take-off". Good programme no doubt, but totally bereft of any reference to the New Routemaster )

I suspect,your Lordship,that the Routemaster bit is meant to be a more generalized use of the word Route.

Last nights programme was quite amazing to watch,detailing as it did,the vast amount of resources allocated to MANAGING every facet of TfL's surface transport infrastructure.

Dublin,or even Ireland as a whole simply does not have the ability to grasp how this massive undertaking has to be 24/7/365 and appropriately EXPENSIVE (try asking an average Londoner how much their Rates,Council Charge,Utilities at al is).

There is also something inherent in the British mindset which allows them to focus on infrastructural issues to a degree which we find difficult,as in temporary "Dolly" Bus Stops to cater for permanent ones being out of commission .....:rolleyes:

Take Ranelagh,for example....a significant arterial route within the City,now reduced,on a daily basis,by the inaction of every relevant civic authority to a half-lane one way.....Action....?...Nah...to get that you first require,INTEREST...something particularly lacking from the Irish Administrative mindset.

LordSutch

Sadly I missed it, but did they mention the new Routemaster?

LXFlyer

The programme is not about routemasters per se, rather it is more about the management of public transport in London.

@Lord Sutch the previous poster was merely highlighting a programme (Airport Live) that to be honest most people with a passing interest in transport will be interested in.

Peregrine

For anyone who missed it, it's on Youtube

And yeah it's more to do with London public transport

dublinman1990

For those who are interested in the second episode Next Tuesday; it will be about the London Nightbuses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036btbw

I don't know if the Borismaster's would be on that one either.

BenShermin

Sorry there LordSutch, I didn't forget about you, I was just busy all this week.

I really enjoyed the Borrismaster bash I have to say. Standing outside Victoria I was disappointed to see a queue of "normal" 38 buses waiting to go into service. I decided to take one of these and see if any Borrismasters crossed me en-route. Indeed one did at Green Park tube station. I alighted here and waited for the Borrismaster to come back in the opposite direction, I had a wait of around 15mins waiting for this to happen.

It felt great to hop on the back of a bus and just scan the Oyster, feels quite weird to see a conductor on the back of a brand new bus aswell, he could have learned a bit of friendliness from our Dublin Bus drivers if I'm being honest. Then again that's London innit. I absolutely loved the curvy back stairs and being able to look out the continuous back window at the traffic.

Upstairs is very spacious. The ceiling above the aisle is high to allow you to stand and then the ceiling over the seats curves downward. The double seats are separated from each other without being separate of each other if you know what I mean. Sitting down the atmosphere is like being in the 1960s on an actual routemaster, somehow they've managed to pull that off imo, I think it's the narrow windows or something. The attention to detail is excellent, things like the Stop bells being part of the poles themselves (and the same colour) struck me. I also noticed how the bus turned heads from the footpaths along the route, people know it's not a normal bus. The engine is very quiet while moving, almost silent when the bus is stationary.

I alighted at Angel Tube station via the middle door. The downstairs with it's three doors and two stairwells seemed to me to be very cramped compared to a "normal" London bus and being honest I expected the bus to be a little longer then it was, it just felt short to me. The 38 seems to be a very busy route after Piccadilly Circus onwards to Hackney and I'm sure North East Londoners are very happy with the extra capacity the Borris Buses are bringing them. I got a Borris Bike then up to Camden Town for a few Borris Beers and a Borris Burger Meal afterwards;).

Overall the Borrismaster has all the look of a vanity project only on the street because of a mad hatter mayor, in reality though it's a very practical people mover that Londoners are going to fall in love with when it it starts rolling out on different routes. I'd really love to see it on the Liffey in Dublin Bus colours, pigs will fly and all that though.

dowlingm

London has Borismasters. Borrismasters are buses in Carlow