TDs urging people not to pay tax - criminal negligence?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well thanks to your shower we're already paying for shedloads of stuff unrelated to us, so the issue is where we draw the line?

You can draw the line wherever you want . . my line certainly includes local services. I am happy to pay for libraries even though I don't use them . . .

Liam Byrne wrote:

Never use Quinn Insurance = pay anyway

How are you paying for Quinn Insurance ?

Insurance levy

tayto lover

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Insurance levy

And before that not so many years ago we paid for P.M.P.A. We also pay a Health Levy although all our local hospitals seem to be closing down.
Were these hospitals not services we were paying for ? Were they up-kept ?

antoobrien

darkman2 wrote: »

The nutty rump of usual suspects in the Dáil are advising people not to sign up for the property tax when the forms are sent out in January. The 16 or so TDs saying they will not pay and urging others not to are being criminally negligent IMO. They are suppose to be legislators and they advocate breaking the law. We had a democratic election. We voted the current Government in. Like them or not. What right do these people have (none of them have a mature, reasoned and well thought out solution to anything) to tell us we voted essentially the wrong way and they know what is best and are trying to stoke up feeling in working class areas and under pressure middle classes to have us descend away from any social cohesion we have left in dealing with this crisis?

In the context of the situation we are in I think these people are far more dangerous then any of the tax measures and cuts likely to come from the government. How anyone can believe that making a greek situation out of our country is the right way to go I cannot understand.

I think it is negligent and irresponsible for any TD to be condoning such an action as not paying a tax even though we might not like the tax (who does?). The fact there are at least 16 of these types in the Dáil has me pretty worried for the future I have to say.

What do you think?

I think their tax clearance certs should be revoked and their seats in the dáil vacated.

slimjimmc

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Roads (road tax)
footpaths (none here)
street lighting (none here)
traffic lights (none here, covered by road tax anyway)
street cleaning (none here)

Motor tax (or road tax as many refer to it) is not ring-fenced for roads, traffic lights or anything road related. It goes into central funding and gets mixed up with all other taxes to help pay for all public services.

bmaxi

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes . . your example shows that the private sector can be more efficient than the public sector (shocker !) but there are other factors at play over the last couple of years (increase in recycling, reduction in landfill costs) that have moderated the cost of waste disposal . . it's not just about the entry of private operators . .

I don't think the reasons cited would have reduced the cost of providing the service by a factor of four, which leads me to conclude that the Co. Council was overcharging for the service they provided. Hardly in the spirit of the Public Service.

antoobrien

slimjimmc wrote: »

Motor tax (or road tax as many refer to it) is not ring-fenced for roads, traffic lights or anything road related. It goes into central funding and gets mixed up with all other taxes to help pay for all public services.

It doesn't go into the general exchequer, it goes directly to a local authorities fund - to pay for local services (including road maintenance).

K-9

antoobrien wrote: »

It doesn't go into the general exchequer, it goes directly to a local authorities fund - to pay for local services (including road maintenance).

Is that the one they've just cut and this is to replace?

djpbarry

bmaxi wrote: »

You could also argue that our public services are too expensive to provide.

I'm certainly not arguing that there is no room for increased value from public services (although I do think this is frequently over-stated), but that's definitely not something that would be unique to Ireland.

bmaxi

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm certainly not arguing that there is no room for increased value from public services (although I do think this is frequently over-stated), but that's definitely not something that would be unique to Ireland.

I recently had to visit OP in my local hospital and I had four separate people ask me my name, address, DOB etc. before anybody asked what the fcuk was wrong with me.

tayto lover

bmaxi wrote: »

I recently had to visit OP in my local hospital and I had four separate people ask me my name, address, DOB etc. before anybody asked what the fcuk was wrong with me.

You must look very dodgy.

nesf

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Why should people have to pay the government to live in a dwelling that they already paid/pay for..

Why should I pay tax on the money I work to earn? Why should I pay tax on a car that I bought with my own money? Why should I pay DIRT on money I earned and already paid tax on that I put in my bank account? And so on.

There's nothing special or unusual about this tax, it's just another tax.

HivemindXX

antoobrien wrote: »

I think their tax clearance certs should be revoked and their seats in the dáil vacated.

I agree but only if they follow through and actually do what they are encouraging other people. Talk is cheap.

Sean Bateman

People need a serious reality check.

The country's bankrupt and we're spending roughly €18B more than we're taking in.

People spoof about us having "taken so much pain" but the reality is that we've taken very little pain relative to what needs to be done.

What has actually happened so far? Credits and bands were reduced by 10% but from a very high base. Some social welfare has been cut. A pension levy was introduced for public servants but their pensions are still gold plated. Minor pay cuts were introduced in the public sector but they were only a fraction of what's required. A mickey mouse property tax of €100 has been introduced. The income levy and its replacement the USC were introduced.

Folks, none of the above go anywhere near addressing the abyss we're staring into.

We need to cut the public sector wage bill by 30%. We need to introduce a property tax of €2,000 per property, not €100. We need to raise income tax rates and cut bands. We need to scrap increments. We need to means test ever social welfare benefit and cut social welfare rates.

Even the above measures won't solve the problem. It's that bad.

Those TDs are a disgrace and should be forced to give up their seats...they're just spouting populist tripe.

tayto lover

Sean Bateman wrote: »

People need a serious reality check.

The country's bankrupt and we're spending roughly €18B more than we're taking in.

People spoof about us having "taken so much pain" but the reality is that we've taken very little pain relative to what needs to be done.

What has actually happened so far? Credits and bands were reduced by 10% but from a very high base. Some social welfare has been cut. A pension levy was introduced for public servants but their pensions are still gold plated. Minor pay cuts were introduced in the public sector but they were only a fraction of what's required. A mickey mouse property tax of €100 has been introduced. The income levy and its replacement the USC were introduced.

Folks, none of the above go anywhere near addressing the abyss we're staring into.

We need to cut the public sector wage bill by 30%. We need to introduce a property tax of €2,000 per property, not €100. We need to raise income tax rates and cut bands. We need to scrap increments. We need to means test ever social welfare benefit and cut social welfare rates.

Even the above measures won't solve the problem. It's that bad.

Those TDs are a disgrace and should be forced to give up their seats...they're just spouting populist tripe.

OK Phil or is it Michael or Angela.

antoobrien

HivemindXX wrote: »

I agree but only if they follow through and actually do what they are encouraging other people. Talk is cheap.

What I proposed was revoking their tax clearance certification for the reasons of tax evasion.


For encouraging others to evade tax they should be thrown in jail.

tayto lover

antoobrien wrote: »

What I proposed was revoking their tax clearance certification for the reasons of tax evasion.


For encouraging others to evade tax they should be thrown in jail.

You would have been very popular around Captain Boycott's time.

bmaxi

nesf wrote: »

Why should I pay tax on the money I work to earn? Why should I pay tax on a car that I bought with my own money? Why should I pay DIRT on money I earned and already paid tax on that I put in my bank account? And so on.

There's nothing special or unusual about this tax, it's just another tax.

You don't pay tax on your car after you've bought it and you don't pay DIRT on money you put in your bank account.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

OK Phil or is it Michael or Angela.

So what's your solution then? How does Ireland close the €18 billion gap in its budget?

bmaxi wrote: »

You don't pay tax on your car after you've bought it and you don't pay DIRT on money you put in your bank account.

Now you're just being pedantic.

hallelujajordan

bmaxi wrote: »

You don't pay tax on your car after you've bought it and you don't pay DIRT on money you put in your bank account.

What's that little disc that I have to display in my front windscreen, next to my insurance disc ??? The one that costs me significantly more than this proposed property tax ?

thebman

hallelujajordan wrote: »

What's that little disc that I have to display in my front windscreen, next to my insurance disc ??? The one that costs me significantly more than this proposed property tax ?

Motor tax, paid for being a motorist presumably.

It goes to fund roads government pot hole expenditure.

bmaxi

djpbarry wrote: »

Now you're just being pedantic.

That's as may be, doesn't make it any less the case.

bmaxi

hallelujajordan wrote: »

What's that little disc that I have to display in my front windscreen, next to my insurance disc ??? The one that costs me significantly more than this proposed property tax ?

We've been through this before, this is not a tax on your car. After you've bought your car and paid VRT and VAT no other taxes are charged on that car you own it, lock, stock and barrel.
I would have given you more credit than to assume that the proposed charge will remain at €100.

djpbarry

bmaxi wrote: »

We've been through this before, this is not a tax on your car. After you've bought your car and paid VRT and VAT no other taxes are charged on that car you own it, lock, stock and barrel.

But you have to pay tax to cover the services that are provided which enable you to use your car. A property tax is absolutely no different in that sense.

Jimmy Garlic

djpbarry wrote: »

But you have to pay tax to cover the services that are provided which enable you to use your car. A property tax is absolutely no different in that sense.

It is when you already pay for your services.

K-9

bmaxi wrote: »

We've been through this before, this is not a tax on your car. After you've bought your car and paid VRT and VAT no other taxes are charged on that car you own it, lock, stock and barrel.
I would have given you more credit than to assume that the proposed charge will remain at €100.

You can't legally drive the car without taxing it, so while you can just leave it in the drive and look at it longingly, you'll have to tax it to drive it, which is its main purpose after all. (They are now changing the rules about declaring the car off road so in the future you'll have to tax it, even if it's sitting in the drive.)

I've seen this argument before and it's as if people purposefully don't want to get it.

Mr.Micro

bmaxi wrote: »

You don't pay tax on your car after you've bought it and you don't pay DIRT on money you put in your bank account.

Usually though you get no interest, hence no dirt tax, afaik.

nesf

bmaxi wrote: »

You don't pay tax on your car after you've bought it and you don't pay DIRT on money you put in your bank account.

If you don't pay tax on your car you can't drive it. Yes, you can be an utter pedant and say it's a tax on driving not on a car. Sure, you pay DIRT on interest not your deposit and you can view this as another income stream etc.

Both are still nasty and annoying though.

djpbarry

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It is when you already pay for your services.

But people aren't paying enough? If they were, there wouldn't be a massive public deficit, would there?

I don't think people quite grasp the scale of the adjustment that is necessary - €18 billion. That's about €4,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. Every year. Bank bailout or no bank bailout.

antoobrien

djpbarry wrote: »

But people aren't paying enough? If they were, there wouldn't be a massive public deficit, would there?

I don't think people quite grasp the scale of the adjustment that is necessary - €18 billion. That's about €4,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. Every year. Bank bailout or no bank bailout.

djpbarry trying to explain this to people is like trying to talk to a wall.

I'm blue in the face trying to explain it to guys I drink with (who are reasonably intelligent). Once tax gets mentioned the banks get drawn in, it doesn't matter that we're actually spent f*ck all on recapitalizing and supporting the banks (we've promised a lot - which we may or may not have to pay), and the simple fact that current spending outstrips total revenue by a significant margin is deemed totally irrelevant.

hallelujajordan

antoobrien wrote: »

djpbarry trying to explain this to people is like trying to talk to a wall.

+1

I don't mind people complaining about paying tax . . none of us like to pay tax no matter how much we earn . . These politicians are trying to make out that there is something fundamentally 'unfair' about this tax and they are whipping up a frenzy about it for no other reason than to try to consolidate their own support base and secure re-election. .

I don't believe that anyone on here really believes that there is any fundamental difference between the household charge as it relates to property and the motor tax as it relates to your car . .