How to stop the constant spitting/temper tantrums etc...

MILF

Hi all,

I am literally at my wits end with my 3, nearly 4 year old son.
He seems to be a very angry child. He shouts at me non-stop, spits in my face if I tell him "no" to anything, hits his sister relentlessly, throws toys all around the house in temper...amongst other things.

Yesterday was a horrifically stressful day for me and his Dad. He was on one all day long. I got spat at right in the face, smacked across the face, got a toy thrown at my head...He TRASHED the playroom when I tried to remove him from the situation. Time out is tried and tested and DOESNT work. Looking into his eyes and telling him to stop DOESNT work. Removing him from the room also DOESNT work. They all lead him onto throwing an even bigger tantrum. As I'm typing this, he is sitting beside his Dad on the couch in a type of time out, cos he threw a book at my nose, and he is spitting into the air just for the sake of it.

He is wearing me down so much. I love him naturally but sometimes its too much for me. He is a very angry, controlling child and I CANNOT see an end to it. Its gotten to the stage that when he goes to bed, I dread when he wakes cos it starts all over again. There is NOTHING I can do to stop him when he goes off on one. Shouting, slapping, ignoring, talking calmly - nothing at all works.

The thing is, he's not like this for anyone else but me and his Dad. We know he knows how to push our buttons and we can't stop him. It is so soul destroying and I am constantly on the verge of tears. He has no respect for me and his Dad or his sister and there is not much more I can put up with. We are nearly at his mercy and he's only THREE.

Do any of you have any pearls of wisdom in how to stop this with him or any help at all? As I said, I'm at my wits end and I'm ready to hear any wise words at all.

Orion

This may not be a popular idea anymore but to me I think you need to put him over your knee and apply some tough love to his backside. And repeat the process every time he acts like that. Spitting earns double punishment.

As for toy throwing - every toy he throws gets confiscated. Repeat until there are no toys left for him to throw.

No treats, sweets, TV, etc etc until he learns to behave and show some respect to his parents.

You will have to be firm and consistent with this. With this kind of behaviour you need to break the pattern and that will take some time.

Daisy M

Oh I really really sympathise this sounds tough. If he is only doing it for you and his dad it doesnt sound as if he has any disorder/problem.
Firstly you need to get a space organised where you can put him when he is acting up, not the playroom or any other room where there are toys or objects he can entertain himself with. Clear out a room even if it is just the utility room and put him in when he is bold. He wants the attention and sitting beside his dad on the couch means he knows he can get it. If he throws something at you do as Orion said and bin it. Do a star chart for good behaviour and give a reward when he earns x amount of stars, personally I wouldnt go for a materialistic reward, we used to give things like a walk in the woods or baking buns.
It will take time but if you keep putting him in a boring room and removing his toys he will learn. Best of luck.

barbiegirl

i think it's a balance of reward and punishment. If he's good he get's a reward. Rewards should be time with mammy and daddy doing fun things, like baking, colouring a book, kicking a football, going for a walk, not material things but attention full things.

If he's a little Hitler he gets punishment. The type of punishment is in line with what he did. This means, if he throws a toy, you take it plus 1 away until he earns them back with good behaviour. If he hits and spits, he gets no time outside, or no tv or whatever he places greatest value on. If he trashes his room, pick up everything he's tossed about, into a black bin liner and put them in the bin. If you must you can take them our later and hide them in a neighbours/friends, until he behaves enough to get them back. It has to be the same for everything.

If he helps in the house, he may chose a toy to play with again, but only 1 at a time, because he has to learn that it is harder to make up for doing bold things than it was to do the bold thing in the first place.

Ignoring is also a great tool. If he is being punished you carry out the action specific punishment and also completely ignore him until he apologises. The bad behaviour is looking for attention. You and everyone else ignore him, I mean completely and totally blank him. It might work. This does mean though that every little piece of good behaviour must get a very enthusiastic response.

I don't think there is a magic answer, but rather lots of tools that you can try until you find the right one, and yes I do think a smack for atrocious and dangerous behaviour is acceptable too.

If he was carrying on like this outside the home I would suspect a problem other than behaviour, but nope he keeps it all for you. Therefore you have to deal with it, and it is going to be very hard, to be as hard on him as you need to be but I think it will be worth it and bring your little boy back to the happy little man he can be.

Moonbeam

I think you need to establish a zero tolerance policy.
Explain to him what he has done wrong when he has and use positive re-enforcement as much as possible.
Every punishment has to be followed through and both parents have to be on the same wave length.
If this does not work bring him to your gp.

January

I have to agree and say it's the following through that's the problem here, he'll kick and spit because he knows he'll get away with it because you are getting stressed... like a previous poster said, clear a room of everything (even if it's the hall) and when he does something put him in the room and close the door, after five minutes come back and explain to him why he was in the room and that if he's ready to apologize he can come out but if he behaves like that again he goes straight back in for another five minutes. If he doesn't apologize he stays there for five more minutes etc until he is ready to apologize. You can't give up though, it might take hours the first day but it will get better.

MILF

Thanks for all the posts. Moonbeam, I'm interested to see why you suggest the GP? It has crossed my mind before. Do you think he needs medicating or something like that?

January, I have removed him before from situations and placed him in a completely empty room, which happened to be our hall. He got so pissed off at this, he broke our window and we ended up in Temple Street with him to make sure no glass went into the cuts he gave himself from this episode.

He's not always like this. When he's good, he's an angel and a pleasure to be around. He's affectionate too. It's just when he doesn't want to do something, or gets told something he doesn't like, all hell breaks loose.

I've got an appointment in Jan with the early intervention team at our local health clinic. I have no clue what to expect from this appointment but I am certain it will be ongoing and will help us learn how to deal with him and for them to see what he's like for themselves.

January

I reckon Moonbeam mentioned bringing him to the GP for referral to Early Intervention but you've already taken that step

MILF

Oh I wasn't being funny, I was genuinely interested. I'm at my wits end & I've genuinely taken everyone's comments on board and they're all very interesting and seem to all say the same thing. We have tried all these things and I'm wondering now is he the exception to the rule cos nothing seems to work with him no matter how consistent we are!

Acoshla

Moonbeam said if none of the zero tolerance etc worked then bring him to a GP, because if proper punishment and educating him that his behaviour is bad doesn't work then they're might possibly be something wrong with him, but before proper discipline and rules have been tried with him there is no point bringing him to a GP.

If he broke the window in the hall you need to put him in a room for time outs that has nothing he can damage that severely or injure himself on. He has realised that he can walk all over his parents, he can actually spit in your face, one of the most disrespectful things ever, and get away with it. Children want attention, any attention good or bad, he was bold so got to sit with his dad, that's a great situation for him, do something to get your attention, get rewarded, job done.

Did you ever watch Dr Phil? The man had good points about kids like this. You might think you're being consistent but it's obvious you eventually cave or he wouldn't have kept this behaviour up. Zero tolerance is the way to go.

MILF

Acoshla wrote: »

Children want attention, any attention good or bad, he was bold so got to sit with his dad, that's a great situation for him, do something to get your attention, get rewarded, job done.

Did you ever watch Dr Phil? The man had good points about kids like this. You might think you're being consistent but it's obvious you eventually cave or he wouldn't have kept this behaviour up. Zero tolerance is the way to go.

Firstly, he was sitting beside his Dad because he was getting him ready for Montessori, not because we were rewarding him for spitting.

Secondly, yes maybe we do eventually cave but this is why we are asking for help - because his behaviour is so much to take, we are struggling and we need to know the best way to deal with him as anything we have tried doesn't work.

Acoshla

MILF wrote: »

Firstly, he was sitting beside his Dad because he was getting him ready for Montessori, not because we were rewarding him for spitting.

I didn't mean you were actively rewarding him, you mentioned he was in a type of time out beside his Dad on the couch because he threw something at you, but what he sees is that he threw something and got to sit with his Dad. I was just going by the info in the post, sorry.

MILF

Yea sorry, what I meant was that it was a type of time out in that he was beside Dad, who gave out to him for spitting and throwing his book at me, and also because he was getting him ready. It actually worked because he got distracted from the spitting eventually and when we asked for an apology, we got one. Sorry, I should of mentioned that part

MILF

Acoshla wrote: »

Did you ever watch Dr Phil? The man had good points about kids like this. You might think you're being consistent but it's obvious you eventually cave or he wouldn't have kept this behaviour up. Zero tolerance is the way to go.

I've never watched Dr. Phil but since you mentioned him, I've just logged onto his website and there are some very interesting insights there - many thanks for that tip! Much appreciated!

How Strange

A cousin of mine was a terror when he was 2-4 years old. He was like the Tasmanian devil and almost impossible to co trol when he decided to do something. He was always considered bold and difficult so people used that kind of language around him. His parents decided to stop telling him he was bold and only give him attention for the good things he did. They were enlightened for the time as it was over 20 years ago but it worked. He grew into a lovely, kind hearted little fella. Now I'm sure I don't know the half of it but his temperament did change drastically quite quickly.

Have you looked at David Coleman's parenting book? I think the guy is great especially for toddler/child tantrums because he focuses a lot on the parents behavior and how and what they are communicating. I don't think kids are born bold or are just made that way. Your little fella seems to have twigged that the more extreme his behavior the more attention he gets. I think to break that cycle you need to either read some parenting books or go to a parenting course. I don't mean to imply you're bad parents but kids don't come with instruction manuals so sometimes we need to learn the skills to cope with the less pleasant sides of parenting.

Acoshla

MILF wrote: »

I've never watched Dr. Phil but since you mentioned him, I've just logged onto his website and there are some very interesting insights there - many thanks for that tip! Much appreciated!

Dr. Phil is good for a pep talk if you're feeling unable to do something, he's very strict, forceful, takes no crap kind of attitude, good when you might need a boost to get through it!

MILF

No your totally right @howstrange, I completely agree we need to go to parenting courses or classes. I don't think it means your a bad parent, every parent needs help in one way or another.

Moonbeam

MILF wrote: »

Thanks for all the posts. Moonbeam, I'm interested to see why you suggest the GP? It has crossed my mind before. Do you think he needs medicating or something like that?

January, I have removed him before from situations and placed him in a completely empty room, which happened to be our hall. He got so pissed off at this, he broke our window and we ended up in Temple Street with him to make sure no glass went into the cuts he gave himself from this episode.

He's not always like this. When he's good, he's an angel and a pleasure to be around. He's affectionate too. It's just when he doesn't want to do something, or gets told something he doesn't like, all hell breaks loose.

I've got an appointment in Jan with the early intervention team at our local health clinic. I have no clue what to expect from this appointment but I am certain it will be ongoing and will help us learn how to deal with him and for them to see what he's like for themselves.

No not medicating but there may be underlying issues as that behavior is far from normal.
Can he communicate ok? Is he good in montessori?

Abi

Daisy M wrote: »

Oh I really really sympathise this sounds tough. If he is only doing it for you and his dad it doesnt sound as if he has any disorder/problem.
Firstly you need to get a space organised where you can put him when he is acting up, not the playroom or any other room where there are toys or objects he can entertain himself with. Clear out a room even if it is just the utility room and put him in when he is bold. He wants the attention and sitting beside his dad on the couch means he knows he can get it. If he throws something at you do as Orion said and bin it. Do a star chart for good behaviour and give a reward when he earns x amount of stars, personally I wouldnt go for a materialistic reward, we used to give things like a walk in the woods or baking buns.
It will take time but if you keep putting him in a boring room and removing his toys he will learn. Best of luck.

This is it. You need a naughty step on the end of the stairs, or a naughty spot to kick start all of this.

The second thing you need is to make sure that you and your partner are on the same page, and will treat any naughty behaviour with the same consistency.

Next thing you need is patience, he's been getting his own way and the running of the place for quite a while by the sounds of it. Its going to take a while to break him down. If he gets up off his naughty step / spot, you need to march back over there and reset his time for the naughty step and tell him he's starting over and that you'll do this ALL DAY AND NIGHT if thats what it takes. You have to persevere with this if you want this behaviour to stop.

Don't get angry with each other as parents, talk. It's extremely frustrating, but you both have to be a team on this one.

Every time he throws a toy, bin it and let him see it happen. He'll soon learn to value his toys.

After he's done 'his time' on the step or spot, remind him of what he did that was wrong and why he needed to go there, make him promise he won't let it happen again and give him a hug and a kiss.

Under NO circumstances are you to let the child hit or spit at you. It would be handy if your partner was around at the time, because I think it would be a nice show of unity for him to take your son to the naughty step / spot, and that it won't be tolerated that he treat you this way.


I think with unity as parents, perseverance and patience you can win this battle at home, but as advised before if there is no progress and you need the help head to the GP.


One thing I thought I might ask though is, do you have any idea why he seems so angry? Can you think of anything or any changes that may be causing this behaviour? Do you remember when he himself changed? It might be helpful in your quest to crack this behaviour, or to your GP if it got that far.

I know he's your little boy, and no doubt punishing him can be hard because you love him. But you're doing him a big favour in the long run by stamping this out now. You and the partner just have to go hardball on him, you can turn his spitting and slapping into hugs, kisses, and respect if you do.

Best of luck

nesf

He might be old enough to start with positive reinforcement. Get a star chart, you can download them for free online and print them out at home. Assign one task to that chart (like cleaning up toys after play or whatever) and give out a star if they do it (consistency is key as is reasonable expectations according to the child's age). If/when they are very bold, they don't get a star (but be reasonable, do not expect perfect behaviour all the time etc!). If they fill up the star chart they get a reward (our boy gets more time to play computer games than he normally gets).

Has worked wonders with my 5 year old (he has three charts going) who never responded well to the naughty step and similar. Your son might still be a bit too young for it though.

With him, try offering him stars (and make a big deal about getting one and a big deal about praising them for doing behaviour) for not throwing toys in the morning, then the afternoon, then the evening. Pick a short chart so he'll see rewards fast and hopefully it'll work.


Failing that it'll come in useful when he's a few years older.

Here's the site I use for them: http://www.freeprintablebehaviorcharts.com/behaviorcharts3-10.htm


These ones are simple enough for a kid your son's age to understand and are short enough that he'll see rewards quickly which is what you need at the start to begin the habit: http://www.freeprintablebehaviorcharts.com/singlebehaviorcharts.htm

Also good are these because they follow a clear linear logical path which is essential for a small child's understand of them: http://www.freeprintablebehaviorcharts.com/step-by-step-behavior-charts.htm


I ended up getting into these because a friend of mine doing a PhD in Psychology kept raving to me about the effectiveness of positive reinforcement in children as opposed to more traditional negative reinforcement approaches (i.e. naughty step, giving out etc).


TL;DR: Positive reinforcement is rewarding a child for doing what you want instead of punishing them for doing what you don't want them to do. Similar to training a dog. Young children are quite addicted to attention and praise as well as easily bribed, they also like games. So turn good behaviour into a game where they get loads of praise, attention and rewards. The rewards don't have to be big, they can be as trivial as an extra half hour of TV or something. I was extremely sceptical of it at first thinking it'd never work but we've been doing it a month and our boy's behaviour has drastically improved. He voluntarily offers to do "housework" now to get more stars, like offering to clean up his little sister's toys after she's gone to bed and similar. The challenge of course is to keep mixing it up and keeping it interesting for the kid.

How Strange

+1 for positive reinforcement. I don't agree with the naughty step but it seems to become the essential parenting tool nowadays.

Moonbeam

A thinking place rather then a naughty step in my opinion is better.
They get to sit there and think about what they did and why they should not do it,it won't work in this situation though util they calm him down ,same with the chart.

dudmis

I feel your pain ;-) I think age between 3 and 4 is the most difficult and I currently have a three and half yr old who's quite willful and can be rough, stubborn and bold.

We use 123 Magic (http://www.parentmagic.com/) - its sort of like supernanny with time out etc but he doesn't recommend talking or negotiating with the children - as far as he is concerned once we start negotiating, our control is gone and the kids have the upper hand. Also, its very important not to get emotional as, again, it gives the children the knowledge that their behaviour is getting to you.

Essentially, when the child does a behaviour that you want to stop eg whinging, you count "one". When they do it again (within a reasonable timeframe) you count "two" and if they do it again, you count "three" and then its timeout.

Thats all you say - one, two, three. There's no "if you do that again" or "i've told you already". This way, its easier to remain in control and non emotional. When time out is over, he doesn't require an apology or a discussion about what happened - he just lets it go. (I'm not sure if I agree with this bit so we tend to modify it slightly).

He also does star charts etc to encourage good behaviour.

Overall, we found his approach to be very useful. But it is hard to remain consistant - and its soooo hard to stop talking at the children;). You don't realise how much you do it until you try to stop.

But probably, the best thing I've recognised in the last little while is that our fella wasn't getting much attention, whereas he used to get alot more. So we started piling it on, with lots of praise for good behaviour, and he is def responding to it. We still reprimand him when he's naughty but I think he was just crying out for some one on one time. Sometimes it hard to objectively assess how much 'quality' time they get.

Hope that helps.