Learning a programming language

Gurgle

Giblet wrote:

I wouldn't be able to run any application without the correct dependencies.

srsly78 wrote:

Surprisingly .net apps must be bundled with the appropriate .net framework
My graphics software also crashes if directx isn't installed! Shocking stuff altogether.

Colonel Panic wrote:

If you build a C++ application in VS2010 and gave it to someone without the correct runtime installed, what would happen?
If your colleague created an installer, it would've managed dependencies for you.

I do understand why there was a problem, my point is that there shouldn't have been a problem.

As for the trolling comments:
The OP asked for advice on where to start programming, I recommended the long-established standard languages over the current selection of professional tools.

Yes of course these tools are useful for particular types of application, otherwise they wouldn't exist. But its hardly helpful advice for someone who hasn't done their first 'hello world' yet.

srsly78

The OP has already done "hello world" in several languages. Troll more

conor.hogan.2

John_Mc wrote: »

Absolute rubbish.

It is at the core of Windows 8, oh no wait it is not.

Also to call python a non useful language for GTD is nonsense Google use it heavily for GTD fast and prototyping etc.

Colonel Panic

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is at the core of Windows 8, oh no wait it is not.

This doesn't really prove anything. The .Net framework isn't going anywhere!

conor.hogan.2

Colonel Panic wrote: »

This doesn't really prove anything. The .Net framework isn't going anywhere!

No, but it is not on the upswing by any means. It will of course stay around and used a lot for a long time.

Colonel Panic

Very true. I think that's the nature of things though. Look at how rarely C and C++ are updated!

There's still a lot happening with .Net as a framework for interfacing with Azure and ASP.Net MVC. Plus there's the Windows Phone side of things too. The Nokia Lumia is selling very well so we could see Windows Phone 7 get a bit more of a foothold.

A lot of things developed for .Net like the rendering backend for WPF and XAML for defining interfaces have been ported to work with native code for Win8. .Net applications will still be able to use these things as well!

conor.hogan.2

Windows phone 7, the sleipnir of mobile operating systems.

dvpower

Gurgle wrote: »

The OP asked for advice on where to start programming, I recommended the long-established standard languages over the current selection of professional tools.

In terms of software development as an industry, .NET languages (introduced in 2002) are long established.

Fad

Real programmers use a magnetized needle and a steady hand....

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Gurgle wrote: »

I wouldn't bother with .NET, its a failed experiment by Microsoft and will be a fading memory in another few years.

trolls like the stop me from posting a lot in this forum.

The amount of people that always say what ever language they use is the best, ignoring what might actually be the best option for the OP. not only in this thread.

irishdude11

Gurgle wrote: »

I do understand why there was a problem, my point is that there shouldn't have been a problem.

Your point is nonsesnsical. Your colleague was at fault, it had absolutely nothing to do with .NET.

Go onto any jobs site and look the amount of jobs going in C and C#. C is hardly used for anything besides games. Actually, is it even used for games anymore, even ID Software have moved to C++...

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

jmcc wrote: »

Python. (Not sure about office work though but it is very useful for some backend stuff.) The alternative (for website stuff) would be PHP.

Regards...jmcc

Python isnt used that much, it would be the one of the alternatives to PHP!

rambutman

Gurgle wrote: »

I wouldn't bother with .NET, its a failed experiment by Microsoft and will be a fading memory in another few years.

I don't normally reply to posts on this board but this time I had to - what a load of crap. What about all the companies that are developed both web and windows based applications at the moment?

Sure even VB which was superseded around 2000 by .NET is being used a plenty still (rightly or wrongly) and there's still jobs in it.

What points you to say it's a failed experiment?

OP - go for C# or Java

jmcc

Nothing sums up the argument better than this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8Oe9SteE3M

I also think that Java is a perverse language but even it has its uses. What I see a lot is people who have been forced to learn Java in college trying to inflict it on other people. It is the Pascal of the 1990s. However for some things, like Big Data work, it is quite useful.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Cynthia Attractive Tobacco wrote: »

Python isnt used that much,

It depends where you work and what you do. While it isn't the language du jour of the average web developer (PHP seems to be), it is very useful for certain tasks and doesn't have an extremely steep learning curve. Of course I could have recommended Tcl but that might have been going a bit too far for some people here.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Gurgle wrote: »

The more people who focus on learning .NET now, the fewer I have to compete with for work in the future

I'm surprised you haven't mention COBOL. They need people for that too and you sound like just the candidate.

Regards...jmcc

dazberry

Back in the late 80s anyone we knew that was into C was as "arrogant as fcuk"**, and having seen the book Born to Code in C we just rolled our eyes as that sort of summed up the mentality of it all...

To far char star star and beyond

and for the record, I always preferred Pascal, but maybe that's just because I'm a bit verbose

** I am not for one minute suggesting this applies to Gurgle || !&Gurgle.

D.

Freddio

everything referenced here is either server side or has to be compiled. I can't imagine a 10 year old trawling through debug logs.

Javascript would be my suggestion, you don't need compilers, servers or development environments and there is great documentation on w3schools.com

You can build mathematical programs, web GUIs, and if you did want to take it further, you can program iphone and android apps with it

Giblet

Freddio wrote: »

everything referenced here is either server side or has to be compiled. I can't imagine a 10 year old trawling through debug logs.

Javascript would be my suggestion, you don't need compilers, servers or development environments and there is great documentation on w3schools.com

You can build mathematical programs, web GUIs, and if you did want to take it further, you can program iphone and android apps with it

Until someone suggest you just use jQuery for **** that doesn't need it.

Actually, it's a fair point, you could make a sandbox app, leverage some document.querySelector and do some cool things quite quickly to get your kid interested.

Placebo

surely a compiler that highlights your error is better than something like javascript [i guess you could look at the console], while the effects are great in jquery i dont think its good for getting the grisps of programming, for example: i think its crucial the kid knows different types of variables instead of just using var. And jquery sytanx is awful as well !

Procasinator

I'd go for something like JavaScript or Python myself.

For Python, you could use something like Pygame.

Maybe this book would be suitable for you and your child:
http://inventwithpython.com/

http://www.codecademy.com/

For maths, as someone has previously mentioned, Python has some great libraries available such as the duo of NumPy and SciPy.

Web development related stuff is quite common in Python too, the most famous being Django.

You said often used in "office work", but that is a bit vague. If you mean to say automate tasks or do quick calculations, then I would say Python again is a great candidate. The dynamic and interpreted nature of Python is perfect for this kind of tasks, and Idle, the interactive shell, allows you to experiment quickly.

conor.hogan.2

I would suggest ruby over javascript if quick, "cool" and easy is the goal especially if it is for a kid.

Procasinator

Placebo wrote: »

i think its crucial the kid knows different types of
variables instead of just using var.

Why so? I think the most important part of learning to program is learning how to solve a problem, not the specific type system of whatever language you choose to use.

Anyhow, JavaScript of course has types. Types can be explained without the need for static typing.

yenoah

The moral of the story................................


The worst place in the world to ask the question "Which language should I learn?" .......is the boards.ie developement forum. God bless us one and all! :cool:

Vovone

If your looking to teach your ten year old daughter to program, choose Python.
I'm sixteen and I've been programming since I was about thirteen and I can tell you, python is a very easy language to pick up and I don't think I would have managed to pick up programming so quickly and without any teaching without Python. (I learnt from the quick guide in the front of an API reference book and a twenty line snippet of someone else's code).
I've tried C and Java and while I'm sure they're used a lot more than Python is out in the world, they will make the job of teaching the basic albeit quite abstract concepts of programming much more difficult. The less time you spend trying to decipher what you wrote last week and struggling with syntactic garbage the more time you can spend on learning good programming practices and concepts.
Anyway, Python is used, it's a major component of the backend servers supporting the multiplayer of the Call of Duty series for instance.

amen

Why not use Scratch ? Its free and there are loads of demo programs. Easy to get up and running. Available from MIT.

Jim2007

I just had a quick look and it seems like a great idea for kids. Thanks for the reference!

stevenmu

Another kids orientated system is Kodu. I haven't used it myself, but looking at the home page I'm very tempted

k.p.h

stevenmu wrote: »

Another kids orientated system is Kodu. I haven't used it myself, but looking at the home page I'm very tempted

That looks awesome, would be brilliant of they actually thought something like that in schools in Ireland

Also this thread seems incredibly stupid to me, I'm only a student and still learning but as far as I'm concerned all languages are pretty much the same . Sure their are different bits of functionality and syntax but the core of anything I'v looked at is pretty much the same. When you are learning you are not trying to implement some complicated functionality but rather understand the core tools and techniques at your disposal.


I see it all the time in college where people find something mental in the language library and declare it like they have discovered something amazing, but a run time it's an bombardment of nulls and errors. The inability to use the core functions makes all the frilly stuff on top pretty useless.

I'm finding (and again I'm only learning) programming one of the weirdest things ever in regard to the process. Unlike almost every other skill, where you learn to use a specific tool, when programming you don't learn anything specific but rather a set of techniques that in turn allows you to use every tool available. All you need to do is refer to some documentation to find out something exists or can be implemented.

That what people seem to be arguing about TBH and it just seems a little pointless to me, If I was going to suggest anything I would say Java. Just for the simple reason I started with Java 18 months ago and since have looked at PHP, Python, C, Assembly, C# and done a bit of scripting. I'm expert in none of them (obviously) but the basic grounding in Java has easily let me look at all the others and see the pro and cons of each and have a basic understanding of what each is doing. And I suppose for the learning process that's a good thing. (Oh and plenty of tutorials and documentation out their (and useful for working on Android and other mobile platforms (which is going to be the big thing in the coming years) ))

Procasinator

k.p.h wrote: »

(Oh and plenty of tutorials and documentation out their (and useful for working on Android and other mobile platforms (which is going to be the big thing in the coming years) ))

I can see you have dabbled in a bit of lisp too.