Help My dream house

Alanvtec

Hello I have a major dilemma. 

I have found the house of my dreams for my budget. Its 2099ft (195m2) the house is finished as far as its plastered and wired for power and the windows are in and it's plumbed for heating but as far as the pipes are coming out of the ground with out any rads hung. 

I want to put in an air to water heat pump system as in the long run it will work out cheaper  but I have rads upstairs and down stairs 15 in all. I have a budget of 10k to spend on the heating that's to install it but not including rads. 

My problem is that im not a builder and I don't know how well. Insulated the house is. I asked about getting a BER rating done before I buy the house but the auctioneer told me I need the heating to get a BER. I don't want to get stuck with a house that I can't afford to run. What should I do ? Is my 10k figure realistic and will it heat the rads on its own ? I have read mixed reviews here about heating rads. If I have left anything out just ask, any info would be much appreciated 
                  Alan

MicktheMan

Alanvtec wrote: »

Hello I have a major dilemma.

I have found the house of my dreams for my budget. Its 2099ft (195m2) the house is finished as far as its plastered and wired for power and the windows are in and it's plumbed for heating but as far as the pipes are coming out of the ground with out any rads hung.

I want to put in an air to water heat pump system as in the long run it will work out cheaper but I have rads upstairs and down stairs 15 in all. I have a budget of 10k to spend on the heating that's to install it but not including rads.

My problem is that im not a builder and I don't know how well. Insulated the house is. I asked about getting a BER rating done before I buy the house but the auctioneer told me I need the heating to get a BER. I don't want to get stuck with a house that I can't afford to run. What should I do ? Is my 10k figure realistic and will it heat the rads on its own ? I have read mixed reviews here about heating rads. If I have left anything out just ask, any info would be much appreciated
Alan

Be careful you could be buying a load of trouble.
What type of house is it, tf/concrete, bungalow/dormer etc etc?
When did building start and how long was it in current state?
Do you know who was builder/architect involved?

Why do you think an air to water hp with rads is best?

At the very least have an engineer/architect survey it and also have it pressure tested.

L driver

Alan,
Any BER assessor can input any type of heating system in an assessment. I think your auctioneer is trying to pull one on you! BEWARE.

BryanF

as L driver says, I would be reporting this auctioneer to his certifying organisation. any house for rent or sale needs a BER

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

as L driver says, I would be reporting this auctioneer to his certifying organisation. any house for rent or sale needs a BER

whooooo, slow down a bit...

if the house isnt to be considered 'habitable' then it is technically exempt from a BER certificate for the sale to go through.

the legal onus is then placed on the purchaser to obtain certification prior to occupation once the structure is made habitable.

from the description given its feasible that someone along the conveyancing line decided that the structure isnt habitable.

to the OP.... if you are thinking of buying this property, ask the agent for the BER certificate. It is supposed to be produced when the property is offered for sale. If it turns out that the property is not to be considered habitable and therefore doesnt require a BER cert at this stage... use that as a stick in the negotiations.

to the patricular topic at hand, personally i wouldn't dream about installing a HP into a dwelling that was not specifically designed for one.

I would demand for example:
1. a defined air tightness value to be met (q50 of 3 or lower)
2. a MHRV system as standard
3. top class workmanship and detailing to preclude thermal bridges (probably too late for that now)
4. UFH to both GF and FF

I would demand these for a geothermal system, so consider that an A-W HP is less efficient and has to work harder in colder weather to achieve comfortable levels.

Also, if this dwelling is to comply with 2008 regulations, its quite possible that the HP on its own will not achieve 'renewable energy' requirements and may require additional technology such as solar collectors.

Alanvtec

MicktheMan wrote: »

Be careful you could be buying a load of trouble.
What type of house is it, tf/concrete, bungalow/dormer etc etc?
When did building start and how long was it in current state?
Do you know who was builder/architect involved?

Why do you think an air to water hp with rads is best?

At the very least have an engineer/architect survey it and also have it pressure tested.

Its a concrete dormer two storey, as for when it started i don't know but its cant be more than two years old and I don't know how long it has being in its current state.
The builder was the owner of the house, he lives in the plot right be side the house im looking at, his house is an exact copy of the house he is selling.
He is selling the house from what I can gather is because he cannot afford to finish off the house due to the current climate
Thats as much info as I know.

I want to go with an air to water hp because it sounds the most affordable and isn't subject to inflation, as for oil its only going to go up with time and in the future I would like to get a wind turbine.

So who should I get an engineer or an architect and can they do a pressure test also how much would it cost ? just a ball park figure

L driver wrote: »

Alan,
Any BER assessor can input any type of heating system in an assessment. I think your auctioneer is trying to pull one on you! BEWARE.

Well I didnt know that but id say she didnt really know that herself either.
Now i may be wrong.

sydthebeat

Alanvtec wrote: »

I want to go with an air to water hp because it sounds the most affordable and isn't subject to inflation, as for oil its only going to go up with time and in the future I would like to get a wind turbine..

heat pumps work best with underfloor heating.
so heat pumps + UFH versus boiler + standard rads is definitely not 'more affordable'

oh and electricity is definitely subject to inflation.
firstly, our electric power stations only work to approx 33% efficiency... and we are all paying for this inefficiency in our bills
secondly, electricty is not subject to carbon tax because the cost of the carbon is ALREADY built into the electricity price. We pay national carbon tax under the EU Emmission Trading Scheme. As fossil fuel prices increase, electricity prices will increase. Unless you want to go totally off grid (or we go nuclear), you MUST include for electricity inflation.

Alanvtec

sydthebeat wrote: »

whooooo, slow down a bit...

if the house isnt to be considered 'habitable' then it is technically exempt from a BER certificate for the sale to go through.

the legal onus is then placed on the purchaser to obtain certification prior to occupation once the structure is made habitable.

from the description given its feasible that someone along the conveyancing line decided that the structure isnt habitable.

to the OP.... if you are thinking of buying this property, ask the agent for the BER certificate. It is supposed to be produced when the property is offered for sale. If it turns out that the property is not to be considered habitable and therefore doesnt require a BER cert at this stage... use that as a stick in the negotiations.

to the patricular topic at hand, personally i wouldn't dream about installing a HP into a dwelling that was not specifically designed for one.

I would demand for example:
1. a defined air tightness value to be met (q50 of 3 or lower)
2. a MHRV system as standard
3. top class workmanship and detailing to preclude thermal bridges (probably too late for that now)
4. UFH to both GF and FF

I would demand these for a geothermal system, so consider that an A-W HP is less efficient and has to work harder in colder weather to achieve comfortable levels.

Also, if this dwelling is to comply with 2008 regulations, its quite possible that the HP on its own will not achieve 'renewable energy' requirements and may require additional technology such as solar collectors.

Well I can tell you it doesn't have a MHRV system,

Like I said already there is no underfloor heating just rads in the rooms

As for the workmanship like you said I cannot tell now nor would I be able to tell.

And on the house not being designed for an air to water hp what real differences would there have being done to a normal oil system ?

Alanvtec

sydthebeat wrote: »

heat pumps work best with underfloor heating.
so heat pumps + UFH versus boiler + standard rads is definitely not 'more affordable'

So what your saying is it would be more affordable to buy a really efficient oil burner rather than buying an air to water hp system?

I know what your saying about electricity costs rising but they wont rise as much as oil will.

Im think ten years down the road oil prices will way out way the price of using electricity to heat your house.

So what im really trying to do is future proof my house from rising costs as much as I can.
That is the mainly what im asking what is the best option if I was to go and buy the house?

Or should I just stay clear and keep looking for something better?

MicktheMan

Alanvtec wrote: »

Its a concrete dormer two storey, as for when it started i don't know but its cant be more than two years old and I don't know how long it has being in its current state.
The builder was the owner of the house, he lives in the plot right be side the house im looking at, his house is an exact copy of the house he is selling.
He is selling the house from what I can gather is because he cannot afford to finish off the house due to the current climate
Thats as much info as I know.

I want to go with an air to water hp because it sounds the most affordable and isn't subject to inflation, as for oil its only going to go up with time and in the future I would like to get a wind turbine.

So who should I get an engineer or an architect and can they do a pressure test also how much would it cost ? just a ball park figure

Is it internally drylined? Do you know the wall and roof build up?
Reason I ask is if the house is anything like a lot of dormers built in the last 5 to 10 years it doesn't matter what type of heating system you install, it'll cost you a lot and you still wont be comfortable.

Do-more

If you are serious about future proofing your house then you need to look at having the best standard of building fabric you can afford rather than looking at the best heating system in a poorly constructed house.

Unfortunately the vast majority of houses in Ireland, even those built in recent years are very poorly constructed in terms of energy efficiency.

And as the saying goes you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Take the chance to do some research on low energy houses and do the sums for yourself.

sydthebeat

Alanvtec wrote: »

So what your saying is it would be more affordable to buy a really efficient oil burner rather than buying an air to water hp system?

I know what your saying about electricity costs rising but they wont rise as much as oil will.

Im think ten years down the road oil prices will way out way the price of using electricity to heat your house.

So what im really trying to do is future proof my house from rising costs as much as I can.
That is the mainly what im asking what is the best option if I was to go and buy the house?

Or should I just stay clear and keep looking for something better?

in the structure as you are describing, in my opinion it would be more efficient to install a boiler and rads than HP. As for future proofing.... you may need to replace the whole HP within 10 years.. not very 'proofing' is it. It is also relatively easy to change from an oil system to a wood system, as compared to a HP to wood system. Oh, and as for comparing electricity unit prices to oil unit prices... see here from post 81 onward

gears

If your budgeting €10k to spend on the heating system save yourself about €8k and put in an oil boiler and divert your svaings in to a new budget called insulation and air-tightness upgrades. It will be better in the long run as many have said it is easy to change the source of your homes heat in a few years, much more diffucult to imporve the building fabric.