eircom phonewatch & upc

KoolKid

Seems OK . Without line seizure though a burglar can come in & take the phone off the hook to prevent the alarm dialing out.
Once you can quote the account number / password they should put it on test for you.

Thunderbird2

+ 1 for line seizure . Especially since burglars are copping on

KoolKid

We are also advising people to hide the UPC modem & ,if possible, lock the room its in, the alarm only needs 20 seconds.

Thunderbird2

But what if they cut the power or the easily accessed UPC lines

KoolKid

Same as any line. Protect it.

Thunderbird2

Suppose so

altor

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

But what if they cut the power or the easily accessed UPC lines

That is the main problem with UPC. The cables to most houses are just down the front of a persons home or else in the box at the side of there house.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

That is the main problem with UPC. The cables to most houses are just down the front of a persons home or else in the box at the side of there house.

The same as the phone lines really. We alarm them where we can or disguise & protect them. We are coming across a lot of phone lines attacked. Haven't seen any instances of them attacking the UPC cable to date.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

The same as the phone lines really. We alarm them where we can or disguise & protect them. We are coming across a lot of phone lines attacked. Haven't seen any instances of them attacking the UPC cable to date.

Neither have I but as we all know it is only a matter of time, same with anything really. Maybe Eircom are doing everyone a favour telling them it wont work with there alarm :rolleyes:

KoolKid

As with the phone lines put the real cable behind the box.;)

altor

Cant do that with a coax coming straight down the front of a customers house. We all know what UPC are like running cables, bit like sky when they get going..

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Cant do that with a coax coming straight down the front of a customers house. We all know what UPC are like running cables, bit like sky when they get going..

If you want a more secure option branch off up at the fascia & into the attic .
Can't see them getting a ladder & trying to cut the main feed between houses.
Thats presuming the burglar knows the alarm is using UPC...

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

If you want a more secure option branch off up at the fascia & into the attic .
Can't see them getting a ladder & trying to cut the main feed between houses.
Thats presuming the burglar knows the alarm is using UPC...

Who knows if the alarm is monitored at all.

brianof

Little help please

I would like to disconnect my eircom phonewatch alarm from my phone line without paying them €90 for the pleasure (it is no longer actively monitored by them but is still attached/hardwired to my phoneline). I've recently and fairly unsuccessfully switched broadband to vodafone who are saying my monitored alarm is the likely candidate of some (noise) issues I'm having on the line. [url=https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/231647/168520.gif[/url] is the filter being used by the system. I first tried disconnecting the pair of "Equip In" wires but my phone line died. Then I tried the "Equip Out" wires but the same thing happened. I figured one of these would work but it didn't. Has anyone else had more success than me at achieving this?

Thanks in advance.

KoolKid

Have you any extension points in the house.?
If not it's just a matter of taking the line that's coming into the house to your modem and phone and disconnect everything else.

brianof

I don't think that I do. I just have the 1 line that the alarm has piggybacked on to. There are 4 sets of 2 wires (equip in, equip out, line in, line out) on the DSL splitter but the phone's dial-tone disappears if I remove either of the pair of 'equip in/out' wires.

KoolKid

Follow back the equip in line back to where the line enters the house.
That will be the clean live pair . Feed that to your modem and phone and disconnect everything else.
Do you have a multi meter by any chance.?

brianof

I've just had it explained to me by an engineer in here and I think I understand now. Basically, by removing the equip in or the equip out pairs I was breaking the loop resulting in my dial-tone disappearing. What I need to do is take the line in and line out wires out of the spltter and re-connect them to each other, essentially putting my phone line back to it's original state and completely bypassing the splitter and alarm.

KoolKid

That's it ..
I was explaining to remove any excess wiring entirely. That would help your broadband along as well.

altor

brianof wrote: »

Little help please

I would like to disconnect my eircom phonewatch alarm from my phone line without paying them €90 for the pleasure (it is no longer actively monitored by them but is still attached/hardwired to my phoneline). I've recently and fairly unsuccessfully switched broadband to vodafone who are saying my monitored alarm is the likely candidate of some (noise) issues I'm having on the line. [url=https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/231647/168520.gif[/url] is the filter being used by the system. I first tried disconnecting the pair of "Equip In" wires but my phone line died. Then I tried the "Equip Out" wires but the same thing happened. I figured one of these would work but it didn't. Has anyone else had more success than me at achieving this?

Thanks in advance.

You will get a line fault on the system by removing the line going to the panel. What you need to do is delete the monitoring stations phone numbers in the panel to stop this. Do you know what system you have installed?

brianof

I did it and it seems to have worked. Apart from getting 0.8Mbps from vodafone all's good.

KoolKid

You will need to get the line in connected straight to the modem to eliminate any issue inside the house.

NewHillel

KoolKid wrote: »

You will need to get the line in connected straight to the modem to eliminate any issue inside the house.

That's exactly it - many eircom Phonewatch installations have the Alarm panel connected directly into the telephone cable, at the exchange side of the Master Socket. This was a more difficult install and the installer did it to make the system more secure. However, it plays havoc with DSL lines, and the best option is to remove it entirely.

altor

NewHillel wrote: »

That's exactly it - many eircom Phonewatch installations have the Alarm panel connected directly into the telephone cable, at the exchange side of the Master Socket. This was a more difficult install and the installer did it to make the system more secure. However, it plays havoc with DSL lines, and the best option is to remove it entirely.

That is why a DSL filter needs to be used. The line for the alarm should be the main line into the control panel and then back out to other phones.

NewHillel

altor wrote: »

That is why a DSL filter needs to be used. The line for the alarm should be the main line into the control panel and then back out to other phones.

The problem is, that with the set up I described, which is common, the alarm panel is accross the line, before the DSL filter. To achieve even reasonable broadband speeds the dsl filter should be fitted first, with the 'phone' output being the main line into the alarm panel and the 'DSL' output going directly to the DSLmodem. ( I suspect we are saying the same thing )

altor

NewHillel wrote: »

The problem is, that with the set up I described, which is common, the alarm panel is accross the line, before the DSL filter. To achieve even reasonable broadband speeds the dsl filter should be fitted first, with the 'phone' output being the main line into the alarm panel and the 'DSL' output going directly to the DSLmodem. ( I suspect we are saying the same thing )

Thats correct NewHillel, we where talking about the same thing

Johnjeffers

I am not sure if anyone has said this already but if you go on the upc website they are also saying that you need a gsm alarm if you move to them. Seems odd that they would admit this, no?

http://support.upc.ie/app/answers/detail/a_id/314/~/monitored-alarms

Thunderbird2

It's just a money making racket ...... Gsms aren't secure anyway .. Eircom don't want people doing this . Think about it . Your paying for monitoring and for the cost of the system to send the message to the station .

KoolKid

It does seem strange to be recommending something that's been proved unreliable.
I've asked about it here.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81923793#post81923793

KoolKid

Update:
Got this response from UPC

UPC: Eamonn wrote: »

Hi Koolkid,

I can confirm that where UPC customers have any queries regarding monitored alarms we advise them to contact a reputable security company for advice.

I have requested that the information on the website is updated to reflect this position.

Thanks

tommy_boy

Hi all, thanks for a really informative thread!

I've a question on connecting alarm monitoring to UPC, and apols if it has already been asked in one way or other.

I have a HKC alarm system installed 2 years ago. It has an eircom landline monitoring it, but that is all I'm using the line for and sick of paying for it. I have a UPC Thompson router so I've now connected this to the alarm panel in place of the eircom line. There are two telephone sockets on the router and I just connected line 1 to the alarm. I will check with the monitoring centre in the morning to see did it check in overnight.

However, the telephone line 2 seems to be dead. There is no tone, but there is an electrical connection sound. Not sure if connecting to the alarm system has caused this. Would the easiest thing be to just get a splitter to allow line 1 go to the alarm and a telephone as well?? Or would this cause interference?

Separately, will connecting to the alarm panel interfere with the broadband connection?

Thanks for all the help so far, appreciate any thoughts and apols again if this has been answered.

KoolKid

Only line 1 is active. Connect everything to this. The correct way is to connect phone one directly to the alarm & connect your phone(s) to the line coming back out of the alarm. Bear in mind using the UPC modem means your monitoring is reliant on mains power & the modem being left on.

tommy_boy

HEy KoolKid,

Thanks for the lightening fast reply! I also owe you a pint.

Understood on the power supply issues. I'm happy to take that risk, and as you say even with a UPS it is likely that UPC will be down anyway.

I know the "Correct way' to do it is have the line go straight to the alarm and then have the phones come off that. But is this the correct way because it is the most secure way, or because of a techie reason? If I did split the line one out to alarm and a single phone, would it cause a tech issue? Appreciate that technically someone could break in, set alarm off, and in under 30 seconds disconnect the line from the router so it can't call out. But again, I think this is unlikely...

Thanks again!

KoolKid

Its the correct way because it gives the alarm priority over everything else.
If you split the line it will still work, but it creates another vulnerability.
Suppose a burglar breaks in, there is a 20 second delay before the digi fires.
If he picks up the phone in that time & makes a call the alarm panel will get an engaged tome.

episode1

Thinking of switching to UPC for phone/broadband and from what I've read so far on this thread it should not be a problem to connect my alarm.

I have an Astec 63dv that is set to ring my mobile. The one issue I'm a bit concerned with is that when the alarm rings my phone I have to enter ** on my phone to accept the call otherwise the next number stored in the alarm is dialled.
Is there any issue with sending dtmf tones via UPC to the alarm. Not sure what protocol UPC use (SIP maybe??) but from experience in the telecoms sector I know that there can be issues around dtmf support like when the incoming digital is converted by the UPC box ?? to the analogue line that is connected to the alarm.

Thanks in advance

Episode1

Solair

UPC's phone service is designed to be an analogue-line replacement. It's carried over their network as VoIP but the modem/router contains an analogue-terminal adaptor, so it will provide you with a RJ11 socket on the back and a dial tone.

Basically, just treat it the same way as you would a PSTN line from eircom.

There's only issues with DTMF support where someone's using an actual VoIP phone connected to the IP network directly i.e. plugged straight into an ethernet network.

UPC's service doesn't even give you an option of connecting an SIP phone. It's presented as an analogue PSTN line from the router/modem/ata they provide.

It works just like an eircom line. You pick up, tone dial the number and it connects the call and you've all the usual supplementary services like Caller ID, Call Forwarding, Call Waiting and Voicemail. You've also got a couple of extras that eircom's network doesn't currently provide like Caller ID on call waiting and anonymous call rejection.

But, everything just works like a normal phone line, so you won't have any issues.

The only thing it does not support is old-fashioned pulse dial. So if you've a very old handset that doesn't support tone dialling / DTMF, then it will not work with a UPC line.

Warning : some VERY old Eircom PhoneWatch alarms were set to pulse dial for some unknown reason long after the eircom network universally supported DTMF/Tone Dialling so you might need to just check that if you've an alarm that dates from the 1990s.

Effects

Sorry to bring this thread up but thought it would be easier than starting a new one. A colleague of mine has just switched to UPC horizon. He was an Phone Watch system that's monitored and about 18 years old. He's changing phone to UPC so removing analogue line. PW have told him he needs a system upgrade costing €500 if he wants to keep it monitored as he can't use the line on UPC. UPC also said he won't be able to use that line. PW didn't give him the option of a GSM dialer. Any thoughts on this? Is his system too old for a GSM dialer? Is there a reason why UPC horizon can't be used in place of the old phone line?

KoolKid

Phone watch are lying to him in the hope of selling him a new system. UPC simply don't understand what he's asking. It does work, we are connecting them every day of the week.
See this thread for how to do it.

Effects

Thanks for the reply. That's what I figured. I just thought that the horizon box might have been different. Not sure if it has a separate router with it. Think he wants to avoid having to run a phone line between the alarm panel and the location of the UPC box as it would be unsightly so he's thinking of the gsm dialer. Given the thread you linked to, are most older Eircom systems Aritech? He can't find an identifying code to give a model number but said he would send me on a picture of it.

KoolKid

At the end of the day the phone output from a UPC router, incl Horizon, is the same as any analogue phone. Any voice or dialler for Central Station monitoring will work.

Effects

Thanks for the help about the phone line. As for the alarm itself, it looks pretty old. Can a GSM dialer work on one this old?

Effects

So I got around to testing his system. First attempt wasn't connected right though the eircom junction where the original phoneline came in. The guy on the phone said it just wasn't going to work and when it didn't he insisted on putting us through to sales to order a new system. Then after that I took the cover off the socket plate to access the wires directly. The panel was still trying to dial every couple of minutes so I got it connected and the dial went through. We rang back to get them to do the check, he said there was no way it was going to work but then noticed he had a register on the system from the first dial in. He then stated again that it wasn't going to work. Surprising to him but not to us, it dialed through no problem. I don't know whether he was just trying to lie about it working on whether they are so brainwashed in phonewatch that they actually believe what they have been told. So I'm going to run a line to it on Thursday from the UPC box, no GSM dialer needed and certainly no need for an eircom phone line.

KoolKid

Thanks for the update. I'd say that was satisfying.;)

Capone79

Koolkid you seem to know your stuff so maybe you can help me.After my mums house got broken into this time last year, she signed up for Eircom Pwatch.She only realised she has 2 years left on the contract so cancelling it is not an option but the problem is the house phone which is never used and the bill is only getting worse with the government getting rid of the social allowance.

She wants to get rid of the house phone altogether but needs the phoneline for Pwatch, what would you suggest she does, or what type of gsm box would you recommend or can Eircom only install their gsm boxes?

Kind Regards

KoolKid

I wouldn't recommend GSM for an central station monitoring.
A UPC line is the cheapest option if its available to you.

Capone79

KoolKid wrote: »

I wouldn't recommend GSM for an central station monitoring.
A UPC line is the cheapest option if its available to you.

A quote form UPC
"If you use eircom's monitored alarm system and want to switch to UPC's great value Home Phone service you will need to contact your alarm provider for the best solution. There are number of simple solutions that allow you to benefit from the great savings UPC can offer whilst still knowing your home is secure"

Do I have to ring Eircom cause they will prob tell me I can't switch.

Yes UPC would be available, would they give me a phoneline without any package? Have you any idea of the price? Thank you!

KoolKid

Your correct Phonewatch (not Eircom) will tell you it won't work and you should use a GSM. They neglect to mention or acknowledge there is any risk of GSM jamming. UPC used to recommend the same untill we pushed them on it here.
Re pricing you would need to ask UPC.

Capone79

KoolKid wrote: »

Your correct Phonewatch (not Eircom) will tell you it won't work and you should use a GSM. They neglect to mention or acknowledge there is any risk of GSM jamming. UPC used to recommend the same untill we pushed them on it here.
Re pricing you would need to ask UPC.

I've just rang UPC and they've said only tv is available in my area, which is very surprising as its close to a college in a big estate, anyway I've just checked my Eircom bill this month and it's €63 for 2 mths which for a service I don't use apart from line rental is a nightmare, maybe I might just take my chances with the GSM.

fred funk }{

Capone79 wrote: »

I've just rang UPC and they've said only tv is available in my area, which is very surprising as its close to a college in a big estate, anyway I've just checked my Eircom bill this month and it's €63 for 2 mths which for a service I don't use apart from line rental is a nightmare, maybe I might just take my chances with the GSM.

The vulnerability of a GSM dialler is greatly exaggerated in this forum. In my opinion it is more secure than a lot of PSTN connections and UPC as these are often terminated in an outside access box or ran down the outside wall of the house.

The only argument is that if a GSM is jammed there will be no physical evidence of the jamming where with the others there's the evidence of the cut cables.

But who does that matter to? Mainly monitoring stations as they have to explain why they didn't get a signal from the alarm if there was an activation.

Your average toe-rag burglars aren't going around carrying GSM blockers just yet, maybe they will in the future when the find out all of Phonewatches systems will be GSM only :eek:

Evolution1

It's a bit mad to think Phonewatch openly tell the country that they only use gsm. Anyone know why they switch off the jam detection on the panels ?
Even when it's turned back on they ignore any jam signals received at the station. Is jam detection not required under EN-50131?