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Life on the dole
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You say these two friends of yours are single?
So I assume their SW payment is 188euro per week?
You also say they take long haul exotic holidays every few months, so that would be minimum 2 exotic holidays per annum with European city breaks every few weeks?
I hate to have to say it but............
"Ah here, leave it out"
Do you really think anyone believes that???????????????
You can believe it or not, it matters not to me; I'm just telling you what I know. I have no interest in making up stuff to complete strangers online, I promise you
One of them takes more than 2 exotic holidays a year, he goes off every few months to different places. He's a non-national European living here for many years.
Yes, both are single, no kids. They're both visual artists and both lead rather unconventional lives-no cars, no computers or latest phones, gadgets etc., minimal living expenses, no expensive hobbies. One has rent allowance, the other doesn't need it as she's living in a family owned house rent free.
Their only living expenses are food-fresh wholesome food too not junk, small mobile bills, electricity-minimal as far as I can see, clothing and footwear, artist supplies, whatever toiletries or make-up they use, and a few drinks now and then. Neither are big drinkers. Neither smoke.
Heating is a mix of gathered firewood for open fires and space heaters for their work rooms. But one of them has a studio in Dublin anyway (yes paid for out of dole money and if they manage to sell some work) so heat is included in that.
That's how they can afford to travel so much. One of them I know can save at least half their dole for that purpose.
Oh and they're not uneducated no hopers either, They're both from middle class backgrounds, both have degrees in fine art-one also has a philosophy degree from his home country.
EDIT-sorry, forgot to add-yes one of them gets full €188 plus rent allowance, and I'm not sure exactly but I know the other is on a slightly reduced rate-about €140/150 I think.0 -
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say_who_now? wrote: »I'm not going to do the howls of indignation thing at all. I'll just state that your friends are committing fraud by claiming that they are available for work, when clearly they are not, nor have any intentions of ever making themselves available for work.
No, they're not. Social welfare are cognisant of their situation and have no problem with it, I promise you. They're both self-employed officially-they show book keeping records of work sold, but as they sell so little work-not enough to live on by any means because of the high cost of living here, they're allowed to keep their dole and all ancillary benefits.
It's not an unusual situation for artists in this country. I know plenty who do this.say_who_now? wrote: »If they wished to indulge in their different priorities and interests, then they should not expect the social welfare system to fund their lifestyle. I have different priorities and interests to my neighbour, yet I would not expect them to pay for me to go for my few drinks at the weekend.
I would call it their life, not lifestyle but fine. That's your opinion. As I explained, the money doesn't go towards a lavish lifestyle, they're both naturally frugal and both reject consumerist lifestyles that require lots of money.say_who_now? wrote: »The social welfare system is there to provide people who are unable to find work with the means to give themselves a basic standard of living- a roof over their heads and food on the table. It is not there to fund their lifestyle choices.
It's there for whatever people wish to use the money for. We don't get to decide what people spend their money on. And what is a basic standard of living for one may be something completely different to someone else.say_who_now? wrote: »Your friends are a prime example of why there is a perception in society that people claiming social welfare do so as a lifestyle choice and not out of necessity.
I would not say good luck to a pair of miserable sponging airy fairy gits that think the world owes them a living. I would suggest that if they want to indulge their priorities or that travel is important to them, that they would seek to gain qualifications and employment in the area of travel, and pay for their own lifestyle decisions out of their own pocket.
Airy fairy gits?
they're both lovely people as it happens and happier than most people I meet. Oh and they both work hard at something they both love-their art. Just because they can't live on the income from their work is not their fault. As I stated they both have degrees. Art for them, as craft work is for me, is not a job or a career, it's a vocation. It's their life work. They can't do anything else and would be miserable in any other occupation. I know that for certain.say_who_now? wrote: »Your friends could do with growing up and behaving like responsible adults, instead of living like the self-entitled minority.
If being a responsible adult means working as a drone in some boring office job or factory with a huge mortgage around their necks, car payments, credit cards, loans, having to have the latest consumer toys, and 2 kids to feed then I think they'll pass on that.
And from what I can see they're all the more happy for it.say_who_now? wrote: »They would gain greater control over their lives and not leave themselves at the mercy of the next budget that could see their income cut by as 30%. Not to mention the fact that when they get to retirement age, they'll be lucky enough to get as much as a bus pass to indulge their interest in travel, if that's not cut too!
That's a fair point about leaving themselves open. They're aware of that though I think. As they live such simple frugal lives any cuts in welfare would just mean less travel for them as far as I can see anyway.
They'll get the non-contributary OAP if it's still there I guess when they reach retirement age. And no-one can be sure of being secure in old age anyway, financially or health wise.
I had an ex who's Dad died of a massive heat attack a few weeks after he took early retirement aged 56 after working in Waterford Crystal all his life.
Life is unpredictable.0 -
Greentopia wrote: »You can believe it or not, it matters not to me; I'm just telling you what I know. I have no interest in making up stuff to complete strangers online, I promise you
One of them takes more than 2 exotic holidays a year, he goes off every few months to different places. He's a non-national European living here for many years.
Yes, both are single, no kids. They're both visual artists and both lead rather unconventional lives-no cars, no computers or latest phones, gadgets etc., minimal living expenses, no expensive hobbies. One has rent allowance, the other doesn't need it as she's living in a family owned house rent free.
Their only living expenses are food-fresh wholesome food too not junk, small mobile bills, electricity-minimal as far as I can see, clothing and footwear, artist supplies, whatever toiletries or make-up they use, and a few drinks now and then. Neither are big drinkers. Neither smoke.
Heating is a mix of gathered firewood for open fires and space heaters for their work rooms. But one of them has a studio in Dublin anyway (yes paid for out of dole money and if they manage to sell some work) so heat is included in that.
That's how they can afford to travel so much. One of them I know can save at least half their dole for that purpose.
Oh and they're not uneducated no hopers either, They're both from middle class backgrounds, both have degrees in fine art-one also has a philosophy degree from his home country.
EDIT-sorry, forgot to add-yes one of them gets full €188 plus rent allowance, and I'm not sure exactly but I know the other is on a slightly reduced rate-about €140/150 I think.
You do know that rent allowance doesn't cover the entire amount of rent?
So out of that 188 your friend would have to put a at least(and this is being very,very minimalistic)20 per week towards the rent.
That leaves then with 168 euro per week and out of that they save half?
So they pay all their bills(and you do say they still have some bills even though you have minimised what bills they do have)on 84 euro per week?
Clothe, feed, dress themselves and go to the pub on that?
Okkkkaaaaay.
Not having a pop at you but anyone on here who genuinely believes that an adult can support themselves on 84 euro per week really needs to sit down and have a chat with themselves.0 -
You do know that rent allowance doesn't cover the entire amount of rent?
Yes, I do.So out of that 188 your friend would have to put a at least(and this is being very,very minimalistic)20 per week towards the rent.
That leaves then with 168 euro per week and out of that they save half?
Forgot to include what one of them has to pay towards their rent in my list of living expenses but yes, that's correct.So they pay all their bills(and you do say they still have some bills even though you have minimised what bills they do have)on 84 euro per week?
Clothe, feed, dress themselves and go to the pub on that?
Okkkkaaaaay.
Yes. The non-national doesn't go the the pub, drinks at home instead... or eats magic mushrooms he finds on his trips out the country. The other does but is a moderate drinker, but yes the rest is correct I think.
They buy clothes when they're abroad, in Penny's or in second hand shops.
Lots of good quality hand made items too though.Not having a pop at you but anyone on here who genuinely believes that an adult can support themselves on 84 euro per week really needs to sit down and have a chat with themselves.
That's ok, no offense taken. You'd probably have to know these people to understand how they live. If you know any artists/craftspeople/hippies who lead alternative lifestyles you may understand them a bit better. Edit-oh and they do sell pieces now and then so that supplements their income too. 0 -
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Not having a pop at you but anyone on here who genuinely believes that an adult can support themselves on 84 euro per week really needs to sit down and have a chat with themselves.
I've done it with mostly a strict budget of €80 per week this year. It requires making sacrifices but it's doable. I say mostly because some weeks I'd manage with just €60 and others I might be bumping it up to €120. As long as your possessions are material you can always find a way to cut back, but if you've got pets or kids then you're in the truly unpredictable realm. You can still budget and plan, but I'd imagine it's much much harder.
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I've done it with mostly a strict budget of €80 per week this year. It requires making sacrifices but it's doable. I say mostly because some weeks I'd manage with just €60 and others I might be bumping it up to €120. As long as your possessions are material you can always find a way to cut back, but if you've got pets or kids then you're in the truly unpredictable realm. You can still budget and plan, but I'd imagine it's much much harder.
Tbf the people I'm speaking about have families, but still cant believe anyone is going on exotic long hauls around the world on 80 quid a week.0 -
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Ahh ok, my bad.Tbf the people I'm speaking about have families, but still cant believe anyone is going on exotic long hauls around the world on 80 quid a week.
Well I've been confined to this merry little Island but a person I knew who was a big flight enthusiast (he loved being in different types of Jet Planes!) would fly off-peak periods and pick the most bizarre flight itineraries to get the flights as cheap as possible.
"So you're going Washington then?"
"Yeah. Via Houston."
"Sorry? Houston!?"
"Yep."
Can't recall, but I think it was almost 25% less.
He'd also get discounts because the airlines sort of loved his quirky routes.
Expensive hobby, but each to their own. 0 -
Greentopia wrote: »No, they're not. Social welfare are cognisant of their situation and have no problem with it, I promise you. They're both self-employed officially-they show book keeping records of work sold, but as they sell so little work-not enough to live on by any means because of the high cost of living here, they're allowed to keep their dole and all ancillary benefits.
It's not an unusual situation for artists in this country. I know plenty who do this.
But just like any other business then GT, if they're not making enough money to be fully self sufficient, then they should give up what they are doing, and go into an area where they will be able to earn enough to be self sufficient and indulge their passion. They are clearly not talented enough to earn a living from what they do, and it is unfair of them to expect the government to fund their life decisions when they want to pick and choose what they want to do in life.
They shun capitalism in favor of idealism, but only when it suits them!Greentopia wrote: »It's there for whatever people wish to use the money for. We don't get to decide what people spend their money on. And what is a basic standard of living for one may be something completely different to someone else.
No, it's there for those people who are unable through no fault of their own, to enable them to have a basic standard of living, that is a roof over their heads and food on the table, not foreign holidays and trips abroad at the governments expense. We laud politicians for this behaviour, why should people on social welfare be allowed get away with it?
And we certainly DO get to decide what people spend their money on! If I give you €50, damn right I want to know what you'll spend it on. If I give the government money in taxes, then I get to vote in the politicians who I feel will make the best use of my taxes!Greentopia wrote: »Airy fairy gits? they're both lovely people as it happens and happier than most people I meet. Oh and they both work hard at something they both love-their art. Just because they can't live on the income from their work is not their fault. As I stated they both have degrees. Art for them, as craft work is for me, is not a job or a career, it's a vocation. It's their life work. They can't do anything else and would be miserable in any other occupation. I know that for certain.
I have no doubt you think they are lovely people in terms of their personality, but I find their behaviour incredibly selfish. The fact they have degrees doesn't mean a whole lot, only that they are well educated in their chosen field. I would be only happy too if other people were to fund my life decisions, it'd certainly make my life a lot easier, no wonder they're happy! I get that some would think that the arts are a vocation, but if you choose that vocation, you should not expect then that people who are "gainfully employed" as you put it, should fund their lifestyle. I have a great appreciation for the arts, but an artist should aspire to be funded by a patronage, those who are willing to appreciate their efforts, not those who have never even seen their work!
I understand that they would be miserable in any other occupation, but that is why I said they need to grow up, life can be harsh and we do not get to pick and choose what we like and don't like, all we can do is plan as best we can for eventualities that we can control, and adapt to situations outside our control.Greentopia wrote: »If being a responsible adult means working as a drone in some boring office job or factory with a huge mortgage around their necks, car payments, credit cards, loans, having to have the latest consumer toys, and 2 kids to feed then I think they'll pass on that.
And from what I can see they're all the more happy for it.
Of course they'll pass on that, but they'll have their hand out for money when it suits them! They have no problem with me working in my boring office job as long as I'm paying my taxes to fund their career choice, but I wonder how they would feel if we all decided to indulge our passion for the arts? Where would their supplementary income come from then?Greentopia wrote: »That's a fair point about leaving themselves open. They're aware of that though I think. As they live such simple frugal lives any cuts in welfare would just mean less travel for them as far as I can see anyway.
They'll get the non-contributary OAP if it's still there I guess when they reach retirement age. And no-one can be sure of being secure in old age anyway, financially or health wise.
I had an ex who's Dad died of a massive heat attack a few weeks after he took early retirement aged 56 after working in Waterford Crystal all his life.
Life is unpredictable.
As I previously stated, we can only make contingency plans, some of us will have a better contingency plan in place than others. This is part of being responsible for yourself and being an adult.
Of course life is unpredictable, I could get hit by a bus walking to work in the morning, but just in case I'm not, I have a plan in place to provide for my future, and do not expect others to provide for me, just like the majority of people in society, and unlike the minority who have no conscience about having others pay for their life choices.0 -
Ahh ok, my bad.
Well I've been confined to this merry little Island but a person I knew who was a big flight enthusiast (he loved being in different types of Jet Planes!) would fly off-peak periods and pick the most bizarre flight itineraries to get the flights as cheap as possible.
"So you're going Washington then?"
"Yeah. Via Houston."
"Sorry? Houston!?"
"Yep."
Can't recall, but I think it was almost 25% less.
He'd also get discounts because the airlines sort of loved his quirky routes.
Expensive hobby, but each to their own.
But was he doing it on what was left out of 80 euro after clothing, feeding himself, paying rent, electric, heat, phone, etc etc(which couldn't be fecking much:))?0 -
But was he doing it on what was left out of 80 euro after clothing, feeding himself, paying rent, electric, heat, phone, etc etc(which couldn't be fecking much:))?
It...is...possible. I suppose.
(I'm fecking tempted to try busking my way across the continent now. For a youtube blog or something.)
This guy though had a regular income of (guessing) over 1k bi-weekly.0 -
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say_who_now? wrote: »But just like any other business then GT, if they're not making enough money to be fully self sufficient, then they should give up what they are doing, and go into an area where they will be able to earn enough to be self sufficient and indulge their passion.
Did you not read the part where I said art is not just a job for them but a life's vocation? so, what, they give up their art and get some other jobs in an area they have neither interest, talent or enjoyment? then what do you think would happen? I'm not 100% sure but I can tell you if that happened to me I can tell you exactly what would happen-I would become depressed and it would destroy my happiness and my life and I'd probably end up either on anti-depressants or eventually unemployed and on State disability-as happened to a relative of mine. So I would be on a State payment anyway, just a different type. I have no reason to assume what would happen to my friends would be any different.
You clearly have no understanding of how artists feel about their work if you think they can just give it up to become a road sweeper. Or IT manager, or...well anything other than an artist really.say_who_now? wrote: »They are clearly not talented enough to earn a living from what they do, and it is unfair of them to expect the government to fund their life decisions when they want to pick and choose what they want to do in life.
Again, I'm sorry but again you clearly display a lack of understanding about art and how difficult it is to earn a living wage from being a full time artist in this country.
I can assure you they are both very talented individuals who have shown their work in galleries both in Ireland and abroad. Only the most successful at selling their work can earn a living from art alone. And selling sometimes doesn't come easy to creative people. Ask me how I know that!
As someone once said "any fool can paint a picture, but it takes a wise person to be able to sell it".
Now I don't think it's wisdom needed to sell, just a business sense but they're two completely different skill sets utilised by the two different hemispheres of the brain. Not to say that many artists/craftspeople can't have the right, creative and the left business, logic part in balance, but there's a reason why in art college they have to make creatives extra aware of the importance of and the need to work extra hard on the business skills necessary for selling their work when they leave. Or at least my tutors did.say_who_now? wrote: »They shun capitalism in favor of idealism, but only when it suits them!
What has receiving a Govt. payment paid for through their taxes got to do with capitalism?say_who_now? wrote: »No, it's there for those people who are unable through no fault of their own, to enable them to have a basic standard of living, that is a roof over their heads and food on the table, not foreign holidays and trips abroad at the governments expense. We laud politicians for this behaviour, why should people on social welfare be allowed get away with it?
The first part of your statement applies to my friends. And it's not at the Govts. expense actually, it's taxpayers who fund the social welfare system through the apparatus of State and this tax payer has no problem with how they spend it as long as it's not harming anyone else. If you don't like it then lobby Govt. to change the rules or vote in a party that would do so or who would prohibit them from obtaining SW.
I'm pretty sure actually that my friends would rather not be on any kind of State subsidy actually but are forced into it because of the ridiculous cost of living here. And show me explicitly in what legislation or rule it says the dole is not to be used for foreign travel? or whatever people want to spend it on no matter how ludicrous, frivolous or undeserving you may think it is. As it happens I know they use the trips as inspiration for their work and they also use the opportunity to buy materials at much cheaper than here so there is that.say_who_now? wrote: »And we certainly DO get to decide what people spend their money on! If I give you €50, damn right I want to know what you'll spend it on. If I give the government money in taxes, then I get to vote in the politicians who I feel will make the best use of my taxes!
Yes but it's not you who give them the money from your pocket direct is it, as I've stated. And have you? voted in the politicians who have made best use of your taxes I mean? if you have and it's not the present Govt. has decided to allow people like my friends to continue to receive the dole then that's democracy in action and you just have to accept it then don't you? or if you feel strongly enough about it as I said lobby them or vote in those who best align with your views on this matter.
Personally I think representational democracy is a farce, especially in this country but that's another debate...say_who_now? wrote: »I have no doubt you think they are lovely people in terms of their personality, but I find their behaviour incredibly selfish. The fact they have degrees doesn't mean a whole lot, only that they are well educated in their chosen field.
Well educated but apparently without talent in your estimation-having never seen their work.say_who_now? wrote: »...but an artist should aspire to be funded by a patronage, those who are willing to appreciate their efforts, not those who have never even seen their work!
Glad to know you appreciate the visual arts, too many Irish people don't. I know this all too well working P/T in an art gallery.
What form of patronage do you mean? and of course my friends aspire to having their work sold! it's not their fault the cost of living is too high here and they can't live on what they earn from their chosen field, how many times do i need to reiterate this?!. It's not their fault people don't value art highly enough to buy their work. Or that people don't have enough money to buy art. They survive as best they can within their field and unfortunately that necessitates them drawing the dole.say_who_now? wrote: »I understand that they would be miserable in any other occupation, but that is why I said they need to grow up, life can be harsh and we do not get to pick and choose what we like and don't like, all we can do is plan as best we can for eventualities that we can control, and adapt to situations outside our control.
We most certainly do get to pick and choose what we want to do in life. Or most of us do anyway in this country that are fit and able bodied. I've chosen the path I have for example because it makes me the most happy and fulfilled. Certainly not for material gain. Others choose differently and for different reasons-money, status, job security etc. What you call growing up others may call a slow death. A life not worth living. What do you mean by "growing up" exactly?0 -
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In the spirit of "attack the post, not the poster", this post is full of sh1t and up it's own hole. I would love this post to go and shyte.Greentopia wrote: »Did you not read the part where I said art is not just a job for them but a life's vocation? so, what, they give up their art and get some other jobs in an area they have neither interest, talent or enjoyment? then what do you think would happen? I'm not 100% sure but I can tell you if that happened to me I can tell you exactly what would happen-I would become depressed and it would destroy my happiness and my life and I'd probably end up either on anti-depressants or eventually unemployed and on State disability-as happened to a relative of mine. So I would be on a State payment anyway, just a different type. I have no reason to assume what would happen to my friends would be any different.
You clearly have no understanding of how artists feel about their work if you think they can just give it up to become a road sweeper. Or IT manager, or...well anything other than an artist really.
Again, I'm sorry but again you clearly display a lack of understanding about art and how difficult it is to earn a living wage from being a full time artist in this country.
I can assure you they are both very talented individuals who have shown their work in galleries both in Ireland and abroad. Only the most successful at selling their work can earn a living from art alone. And selling sometimes doesn't come easy to creative people. Ask me how I know that!
As someone once said "any fool can paint a picture, but it takes a wise person to be able to sell it".
Now I don't think it's wisdom needed to sell, just a business sense but they're two completely different skill sets utilised by the two different hemispheres of the brain. Not to say that many artists/craftspeople can't have the right, creative and the left business, logic part in balance, but there's a reason why in art college they have to make creatives extra aware of the importance of and the need to work extra hard on the business skills necessary for selling their work when they leave. Or at least my tutors did.
What has receiving a Govt. payment paid for through their taxes got to do with capitalism?
The first part of your statement applies to my friends. And it's not at the Govts. expense actually, it's taxpayers who fund the social welfare system through the apparatus of State and this tax payer has no problem with how they spend it as long as it's not harming anyone else. If you don't like it then lobby Govt. to change the rules or vote in a party that would do so or who would prohibit them from obtaining SW.
I'm pretty sure actually that my friends would rather not be on any kind of State subsidy actually but are forced into it because of the ridiculous cost of living here. And show me explicitly in what legislation or rule it says the dole is not to be used for foreign travel? or whatever people want to spend it on no matter how ludicrous, frivolous or undeserving you may think it is. As it happens I know they use the trips as inspiration for their work and they also use the opportunity to buy materials at much cheaper than here so there is that.
Yes but it's not you who give them the money from your pocket direct is it, as I've stated. And have you? voted in the politicians who have made best use of your taxes I mean? if you have and it's not the present Govt. has decided to allow people like my friends to continue to receive the dole then that's democracy in action and you just have to accept it then don't you? or if you feel strongly enough about it as I said lobby them or vote in those who best align with your views on this matter.
Personally I think representational democracy is a farce, especially in this country but that's another debate...
Well educated but apparently without talent in your estimation-having never seen their work.
Glad to know you appreciate the visual arts, too many Irish people don't. I know this all too well working P/T in an art gallery.
What form of patronage do you mean? and of course my friends aspire to having their work sold! it's not their fault the cost of living is too high here and they can't live on what they earn from their chosen field, how many times do i need to reiterate this?!. It's not their fault people don't value art highly enough to buy their work. Or that people don't have enough money to buy art. They survive as best they can within their field and unfortunately that necessitates them drawing the dole.
We most certainly do get to pick and choose what we want to do in life. Or most of us do anyway in this country that are fit and able bodied. I've chosen the path I have for example because it makes me the most happy and fulfilled. Certainly not for material gain. Others choose differently and for different reasons-money, status, job security etc. What you call growing up others may call a slow death. A life not worth living. What do you mean by "growing up" exactly?0 -
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I've never been on the Dole, and I honestly have no feelings about it, or the people who get it. I don't resent them, envy them or pity them. If it's a choice, that's fine by me, if it's because they can't find work and need it, that's ok too. I also don't care what level it is at, it could be €600 a week and I'd care less. Lifes for each person themselves, if you spend it worrying what everyone else is getting, it eats you up and messes you up. I'd die of boredom, I actually love work and for me it just follows, I care not a bit about money, I just do what I like doing and money follows - I'm not rich, I have enough and I support a lot of families by creating work for a good few local lads who otherwise would not have any, but, tbh, I'm just having a bit of fun and I leave the deep stuff to others. I'm lucky cos I have a mad head that just sees work that pays, but not everyones like that and thats just fine by me - why the feck would you want to see people poor? The dole should be there to provide a safety net for people, otherwise what's the point in life if everyone just gets shat on when they are in need? Sorry for the windy post, I usually try to keep it short.
Excellent post. If only everyone had your sensible attitude, decency and compassion for others less well off! It always strikes me as pathetic sour grapes when I hear people moaning and complaining about what people get on the dole. If they spent a fraction of that energy and righteous indignation actively holding our bankers and politicians to account for the multiple billions we're in hock to we might get a better country than the one we have.
I guess it's easier to scapegoat the poor and pour bile and vitriol on them than go after rich bankers and politicians. It's pathetic, and classic divide and conquer tactics by the elite. What fools we are to fall into the trap! seems to be working in this country though judging by the comments I read in threads like this about those on the dole. 0 -
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I think you are making a point for me there:D
People do stereotype people on the dole as you described above and any person with a bit of cop on would realise that four hundred and odd thousand people do not wear shell suits.
Not sure what point I'm making for you as you don't specify but glad you see the idiocy and unfairness of the stereotype I mentioned.But there are a lot of people out there who will love the fact that your friends(and I wont argue with you over this;))go, as you say, on swanky holidays.
It will be the thing that they will say "Oh there you go, told you the feckin' dole was too high"
Your
suggesting you either do still disagree and you think I'm making up what I'm telling you or something else, no idea what 
oh well...
I'm not responsible for others ignorant and ill-informed opinions if they think the dole is too high just from one example I give. Anyone with an ounce of sense and decency would take a more nuanced and informed approach to the issue and educate themselves on the realities of life on the dole for most people.0 -
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say_who_now? wrote: »GT I've long respected you as a poster so I'm just going to step out of this one rather than keep it going when we're totally at polar opposite views on this particular topic...
What, you mean you had respect for me before this? sorry to let you down :P where did I lose you? it's was when I told you I was self employed wasn't it? that always happens *sigh*
No problem if you don't want to reply any further, thank's for keeping it civil 0 -
Greentopia wrote: »Not sure what point I'm making for you as you don't specify but glad you see the idiocy and unfairness of the stereotype I mentioned.
Your suggesting you either do still disagree and you think I'm making up what I'm telling you or something else, no idea what oh well...
I'm not responsible for others ignorant and ill-informed opinions if they think the dole is too high just from one example I give. Anyone with an ounce of sense and decency would take a more nuanced and informed approach to the issue and educate themselves on the realities of life on the dole for most people.
Okay,
I'l give my opinion of dole claimants.
They are people.
Your neighbours, friends possibly even family members.
The vast, vast ,majority of people in receipt of SW worked before jobseekers.
Or became ill and then claimed Disability.
Maybe I have read one too many threads about the dole on here and the stereotypes that it spews forth ie "dutch gold swilling, hoop earring wearing, 20 blue a day, bud" that I have become sick of it.
My response to your post about your friends was that I did not wish for the fools who spew forth that kind of bunk to have any more ammunition in their crusade to stand on their high-horse and say "Told ya them feckers get to much on the labour. Ya see, I told. They are swanning of ta feckin Mexico now. Give them a score a week, that'll learn 'em".
I know too many people who have fallen on hard times.0 -
Nice post, considering how rude I was to yours, but in fairness, I was being honest, and you were dissapearing up your own sphincter. I recognise you consider yourself an artist, and that's all good, but maybe, just maybe you are not alone? Maybe there are loads of other people who are also artists but can't make a living as an artist and so clean the local factory canteen for a living? That does not make them any less intelligent or artistic, they just do what they have to do, despite their artistic inclinations. Which maybe takes a lot of guts and stamina. If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor, etc. You either get it or you don't. If you don't, and you take offence, good luck, if you do, and you see the point I'm making, all's good and actually, we're on the same sheet.:)Greentopia wrote: »Excellent post. If only everyone had your sensible attitude, decency and compassion for others less well off! It always strikes me as pathetic sour grapes when I hear people moaning and complaining about what people get on the dole. If they spent a fraction of that energy and righteous indignation actively holding our bankers and politicians to account for the multiple billions we're in hock to we might get a better country than the one we have.
I guess it's easier to scapegoat the poor and pour bile and vitriol on them than go after rich bankers and politicians. It's pathetic, and classic divide and conquer tactics by the elite. What fools we are to fall into the trap! seems to be working in this country though judging by the comments I read in threads like this about those on the dole.
On another note, most people who are on the dole paid their PRSI and therefore are only getting their own money drip fed back to them, so what's the issue? They bought their entitlement to the Dole, it is theirs to claim??? What's the issue with that???0 -
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Greentopia wrote: »Excellent post. If only everyone had your sensible attitude, decency and compassion for others less well off! It always strikes me as pathetic sour grapes when I hear people moaning and complaining about what people get on the dole. If they spent a fraction of that energy and righteous indignation actively holding our bankers and politicians to account for the multiple billions we're in hock to we might get a better country than the one we have.
I guess it's easier to scapegoat the poor and pour bile and vitriol on them than go after rich bankers and politicians. It's pathetic, and classic divide and conquer tactics by the elite. What fools we are to fall into the trap! seems to be working in this country though judging by the comments I read in threads like this about those on the dole.
Well I can agree with having compassion for those less well off than I am GT, but it was the way I suppose that it came across initially in your post as if your friends were enjoying the life of reilly claiming social welfare and laughing at the rest of us poor fools working our butts off to support THEIR life choices-Greentopia wrote: »I have two (single, it must be said) close friends who are on it for years-one for about 15 years! because they can't live on what they earn and they manage ok. In fact they both go off on holidays and trips away to far flung places like Mexico every few months and European capitals every few weeks.
* cue howls of indignation and horror from the gainfully employed here :pac:.
It was the contradiction here between suggesting they can't live on what they earn, so they claim social welfare, and then in the same paragraph to make a point of saying they fly off on holidays and trips to all manner of foreign destinations every few weeks!
This to me was not only suggesting that they were living beyond their means, but that they were enjoying holidays and travelling the world while claiming from a system that was only ever intended to be used as a safety net for those that needed it to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.
Of course it was going to get people's backs up when they felt that people were making a mockery of a system that was put in place to protect the most vulnerable in society, not a pair of middle class misfits whose only philosophy in life is living for today and I make myself happy and to hell with anyone that might begrudge me what I want to do with MY life. If they choose to take from the state, then is it wrong for the state to expect something in return? Art is only worth the value that someone else puts on your work, and I too know many artists, photographers, graphic designers, my own wife is extremely creative, but she keeps her art and handcrafts as a hobby because she knows how hard it is to make a living from it, yet this does not stop her enjoying it, and others enjoying her work.
The old saying that "all work and no play makes jack a dull boy", should equally be balanced with "all play and no work makes jack unpopular with those that have to pick up the slack while he's off playing!".
My point is that there has to be give ASWEL as take, and while I can appreciate the efforts of a struggling artist, there's a line has to be drawn where they must be told "now you're just taking the proverbial", you cannot expect others to help you achieve what you want in life when all you do is take, and expect that what YOU value, will be of any value to THEM!!
It'd be like me walking into Tesco and expecting to pay for my groceries with the new waistcoat I just knitted for the staff that I think will look rather dashing on them! I'd quickly be told GTFO and only rightly so!0 -
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