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Transgender 7 year old??
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Yeah it doesn't make sense to make a diagnosis at such an early age. Although there was a newspaper publication a few weeks ago about more parents being concerned about their childrens gender identity.
The TENI had parents of children from 10 - 22 coming to them. Guess these are the more appropriate age ranges to be questioning identity in children.
I wouldn't read too much into that.. It's more than likely parents reaching out for a "prescribable disorder" as usual.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I wouldn't read too much into that.. It's more than likely parents reaching out for a "prescribable disorder" as usual.
But they are parents of adolescents, and adults. Surely at that age their children would be more adjusted into their gender, and what sort of disordered behaviour are they trying to excuse?
I can't think of anyone who would be at a personal or societal advantage here if they were diagnosed as trangender / identity disorder / whatever the term is.0 -
But they are parents of adolescents, and adults. Surely at that age their children would be more adjusted into their gender, and what sort of disordered behaviour are they trying to excuse?
I can't think of anyone who would be at a personal or societal advantage here if they were diagnosed as trangender / identity disorder / whatever the term is.
I don't really know what I'm trying to say actually. It's 4am here and I'm unbelievably tired. Disregard my last post.0 -
Would I have been considered cis-gender as a child? I didn't like playing with girls things, wearing girls clothes and doing girls things so much so that in my linear though process I thought I must have been a boy if I didn't like being a girl. I did come to terms with my gender, eventually and realise it was a phase, and an understanding that i don't have to act 'girly' or be 'girly' to be a female.
All I can say is thankfully I didn't get diagnosed as having some 'disorder' and be given some sort of complex that didn't really exist to begin with. Just a pure social construction*
*no I am not saying this is what it is for tg, that is why I believe it would have to be deeper than not identifying with gender stereotypes. I am just wondering what it is.
you seem to be making the assumption that what transgender people experience is merely to do with likes or dislikes of masculine or feminine things.
it may surprise you, but growing up, I didn't particularly have any interests that would be considered feminine. not every transgender woman does. my idea of a good time is bouncing about a heavy metal concert. I wear jeans, tshirts and boots 95% of the time. it's absolutely nothing about identifying with stereotypes at all.Being gay is not a disorder, but surely being born in the wrong body is?
To quote the American Psychological Association, http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx#Is being transgender a mental disorder?
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.
personally, I don't consider myself as having a disorder, there are just natural variations in human development. I happen to be different, and there's nothing wrong or disordered or ill about that, and I would really like it if people didn't label me as such.0 -
you seem to be making the assumption that what transgender people experience is merely to do with likes or dislikes of masculine or feminine things.
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That's because the article/people in it is/are assuming the child is trans because they like playing with girly things
which is the whole bone of contention with some posters here0 -
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personally, I don't consider myself as having a disorder, there are just natural variations in human development. I happen to be different, and there's nothing wrong or disordered or ill about that, and I would really like it if people didn't label me as such.
That's fair enough if you don't feel that way, I was surprised myself when I heard it was a disorder and in the DSM. Is it the same for much of the community that they don't want to be labelled as having a disorder?
And are there any advantages with it being labelled a disorder, in regards to healthcare for example?0 -
no, they are not assuming that the child is trans because they like playing with girly thingsThat's because the article/people in it is/are assuming the child is trans because they like playing with girly things
which is the whole bone of contention with some posters here
in the article, one of the quotes from the mother is "When he was 4 or 5, he asked me, 'Why didn't you make me a girl?'" and that "Bobby Montoya was born with male genitalia but has been convinced since the age of 2 that he is a girl."
that looks like a pretty strong identification of feelings of being transgender, the stuff about her liking typically girls things is incidental. but people here seem to be reading what they want to read into the situation, and assuming from it that they the parents/child/etc think she's just transgender because of her interests.
nobody is saying that a child is automatically transgender if they like playing with typically masculine or feminine toys0 -
no, they are not assuming that the child is trans because they like playing with girly things
in the article, one of the quotes from the mother is "When he was 4 or 5, he asked me, 'Why didn't you make me a girl?'" and that "Bobby Montoya was born with male genitalia but has been convinced since the age of 2 that he is a girl."
that looks like a pretty strong identification of feelings of being transgender, the stuff about her liking typically girls things is incidental. but people here seem to be reading what they want to read into the situation, and taking from that they the parents/child/etc think she's just transgender because of her interests.
nobody is saying that a child is automatically transgender if they like playing with typically masculine or feminine toys
I said the exact same things too when I was a kid, it wasn't just about the toys and the clothes. But to say I am or was transgendered now would not really fit, because as I said, I grew out of it / came to terms or whatever and have no confusion or uncomfortability on my identity at present. Of course if I still had these feelings through adolescence then perhaps it could be considered that I may have an issue with my gender. But really, as a 3 / 5 year old I would not call a child trans. Even if they did tell their teacher to fk off for saying 'good girl' :pac:
And it doesn't mean the kid is not trans either, I just think it is dangerous to put labels on young children.0 -
That's fair enough if you don't feel that way, I was surprised myself when I heard it was a disorder and in the DSM. Is it the same for much of the community that they don't want to be labelled as having a disorder?
And are there any advantages with it being labelled a disorder, in regards to healthcare for example?
I would say that a majority of the transgender community are against it being labeled a disorder, and there are many calls for it to be depathologized.
don't think there are any advantages at all. in the DSM, 'gender identity disorder' is going to be replaced with 'gender dysphoria' I think, supposedly so that there is still a classification for making a diagnosis. in the US there are some clinics that will treat trans patients on an informed consent basis, so perhaps even the need for a diagnosis will become obsolete. and it already is obsolete in some countries.
but countries like the UK and France have already declared their official stance on transgender people, and that it is not a mental illness or disorder.
this is a very real thing we're talking about, but the medical community is really only starting to understand it, most of the evidence for the physical causes of transsexuality have only been discovered in the last decade, and the 'transsexual gene' was only discovered in 2008. but of course, it's going to take time for things to change in terms of how it's perceived even in medical communities.0 -
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no, they are not assuming that the child is trans because they like playing with girly things
in the article, one of the quotes from the mother is "When he was 4 or 5, he asked me, 'Why didn't you make me a girl?'" and that "Bobby Montoya was born with male genitalia but has been convinced since the age of 2 that he is a girl."
that looks like a pretty strong identification of feelings of being transgender.
Hmmm.but people here seem to be reading what they want to read into the situation
Hmmm indeed.0 -
nin the article, one of the quotes from the mother is "When he was 4 or 5, he asked me, 'Why didn't you make me a girl?'" and that "Bobby Montoya was born with male genitalia but has been convinced since the age of 2 that he is a girl."
that looks like a pretty strong identification of feelings of being transgender
I don't think that'd qualify them as transgender by medical standards and for good reason. I don't know the specifics of GID but with other disorders (e.g. ASPD) you'd have to be in discussion with a professional for quite some time before a diagnoses could be made, and no way would a 4 or 5 year old get diagnosed.
Maybe it's different for GID but if this situation (with the scouts) was taken to a court I'd expect a professional would be called in and presumably the professional would not be able to say either way simply because the child is so young.
You can't really take a 5 year olds word when it comes to something this complicated. I'm not saying they should ignore it but they should at least maintain some scepticism until they're 10 or 11 to ensure it's not just a kid being a kid. It's a "dangerous" game being played solely on the advice a someone so young.0 -
I said the exact same things too when I was a kid, it wasn't just about the toys and the clothes. But to say I am or was transgendered now would not really fit, because as I said, I grew out of it / came to terms or whatever and have no confusion or uncomfortability on my identity at present. Of course if I still had these feelings through adolescence then perhaps it could be considered that I may have an issue with my gender. But really, as a 3 / 5 year old I would not call a child trans. Even if they did tell their teacher to fk off for saying 'good girl' :pac:
And it doesn't mean the kid is not trans either, I just think it is dangerous to put labels on young children.
I can understand your position.
I think a large problem here is how we're being told this story. this specifically is about the child getting accepted into the girl scouts, so that's what the media is focusing on. we're not told about what steps the parents have taken to verify their child is trans because it's not relevant to the story they want to tell. so we're not told how many tests the child has gone through, what sort of evaluation, if they're now attending school as female, the school may have wanted a diagnosis or wanted their own independent evaluation.I don't think that'd qualify them as transgender by medical standards and for good reason. I don't know the specifics of GID but with other disorders (e.g. ASPD) you'd have to be in discussion with a professional for quite some time before a diagnoses could be made, and no way would a 4 or 5 year old get diagnosed.
Maybe it's different for GID but if this situation (with the scouts) was taken to a court I'd expect a professional would be called in and presumably the professional would not be able to say either way simply because the child is so young.
You can't really take a 5 year olds word when it comes to something this complicated. I'm not saying they should ignore it but they should at least maintain some scepticism until they're 10 or 11 to ensure it's not just a kid being a kid. It's a "dangerous" game being played solely on the advice a someone so young.
no, you're actually quite right there, it is in fact absolute hell for a parent of a trans child to get help for them and to allow their child to live as their identified gender. it's a hell of a long road if they want medical intervention too. so I doubt that this is solely on the advice of the child0 -
I think that any parents who support their child when it begins to question its sexuality and considers that they may be living in the wrong body deserves a hell of a lot of respect and applause but in this case I think that the parents may have done more damage than good. A two year old child may be aware of differences between genders but does that mean that they are significantly informed enough to say that they there born in the wrong body. Any parent who saw their chIld at such a young age playing with toys or wearing clothes traditionally associated with the opposite gender and then encouraging their child to believe that they were born in the wrong body is bordering on abuse on my mind.
The child in question may well be a transgender but for the mother to state that the child recognized this at age 2 is hard to believe and for her to encourage it at such a young age is ridicolous. Likewise her insistence that her child who is legally recognized as a male should be allowed engage in an activity aimed traditionally at the opposite gender. Why should the parents of the girls invited in the scouts have to explain to situation their childrensutherland they feel that their children aren't ready for it yet. Maybe there are other reasons for the decision not to allow the boy join, perhaps there is only one changing area or perhaps the child in question refuses to use a male toilet and the organizers feel it is inappropriate.
My four year old brother spent sometime playing with a Slyvanian family play set a few weeks back and enjoys Peppa Pig, does that mean that we should begin telling him that he may be a girl living in a boys body or merely recognize that like everyone he can gain pleasure from toys and shows aimed at the opposite gender.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Any parent who saw their chIld at such a young age playing with toys or wearing clothes traditionally associated with the opposite gender and then encouraging their child to believe that they were born in the wrong body is bordering on abuse on my mind.
that is not what has happened tho0 -
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being supportive is an entirely different thing. where is it stated that the parents are convincing the child they are born in the wrong body? in the article from the first post of this thread, the mother says she has difficulty referring to her child with female pronouns, that doesn't sound like someone who is trying to lead their child this way.Deleted User wrote: »We don't know that to be sure but from reading the article quoted and some other reports on the incident it would seem that the parent actively supported it from an early age.0 -
If the child identifies themselves as a girl, dresses as a girl, likes girly thing and feels that they are a girl regardless of body parts they should be allowed to live the life of a girl, including joining girl scouts.0
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Personally, it doesn't surprise me at all. I firmly believe that behaviours and interests and likes and dislikes have absolutely nothing to do with gender or gender identity.it may surprise you, but growing up, I didn't particularly have any interests that would be considered feminine. not every transgender woman does. my idea of a good time is bouncing about a heavy metal concert. I wear jeans, tshirts and boots 95% of the time. it's absolutely nothing about identifying with stereotypes at all.
It's just, whenever I read articles about this, there is almost always a reference to how said transgendered female (and it's usually a female, for whatever reason. I don't know if transgendered males are less common or if they're just not as interesting to the media because of the taboo surrounding men wearing women's clothing etc.) didn't like to play with guns or cars, but preferred ponies and dresses and princesses etc. . And it's not just tabloids which print stuff like this, it's often from what I perceive as progressive, pro-trans sources. And it baffles me.
Is that just because of the connotations of the word "disorder" and how it potentially infers that transgender people are "freaks" or something?personally, I don't consider myself as having a disorder, there are just natural variations in human development. I happen to be different, and there's nothing wrong or disordered or ill about that, and I would really like it if people didn't label me as such.
I can understand that, but ultimately, isn't every disorder a natural variation in human development (natural does not necessarily equate to good)? I mean, transgenderism is something which often requires treatment with hormones and potentially serious surgical procedures. It's not quite like, say, homosexuality, which requires no medical intervention.
Of course, once the transgendered person is happy and comfortable with themselves, be it after HRT or SRS or just being able to identify as the opposite gender in their natural body, then it does cease to be a disorder. I guess it'd be more accurate to say that transgenderism often begets a disorder in the form of gender dysphoria, but that transgendered people do not all have a disorder?
I know what you're saying, but honestly, I don't really think I can give much credence to anything a child that young says.in the article, one of the quotes from the mother is "When he was 4 or 5, he asked me, 'Why didn't you make me a girl?'" and that "Bobby Montoya was born with male genitalia but has been convinced since the age of 2 that he is a girl."
I mean, kids do go through phases, and kids do have (often beautiful and innocent) bizarre delusions about reality. You only have to look at a thread on boards or reddit about the craziest things kids believed to see that.
And kids do latch onto ideas via reinforcement of them from their parents or authority figures etc. Upbringing forms a huge part of our beliefs, behaviours and attitudes.
So my fear would be that a child would tell their parents that they believe they are the opposite sex, and the parents are very supportive of this, but maybe, just maybe, there is a chance that by being so supportive, that the parents are reinforcing the idea that they are the opposite gender, when in fact, they were going through a phase/didn't really understand the implications of what they were saying. And given the depression and dysphoria which people who are actually transgendered experience due to being misidentified as the wrong gender, I imagine that this could have pretty negative effects on the child.
(I mean, in this case, the mother's gone to the media about it. I think it'd be fairly difficult for the young person in this case to "come out" as being cisgendered if they happen to feel that way in a few years' time)
Is my thinking too paranoid or far fetched? I don't know. I just feel pretty uncomfortable about labeling children like this and, from what I gather from the articles I read, the grey methodology involved in doing so.0 -
wild Links appears, in a transgender thread.0
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