Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

UnitedIrishman

kryogen wrote: »

Just to point out

Gerrard Pique
Guissepe Rossi
Diego Forlan
Jaap Stam certainly didnt suffer as a result of leaving
Cristiano Ronaldo, better player now

Pique and Rossi weren't getting enough game time to progress them to the level they needed to be at with us. Hence why both went on loan (Rossi on a nightmare stint to Newcastle and Rossi did well at Zaragoza.) Pique progressed massively under Pep who instilled massive confidence and to be fair Spain suited him far better to learn his trade. Similar story with Rossi.

Forlan wasn't doing much with us either and needed a change of scenery. Sometimes things just don't work out. The experience of playing for United in major competitions no doubt helped him when he started firing in goals in Spain.

Stam was a regret of SAF's but remember he did get banned for nandrolene at Lazio and he didn't win very much (a Coppa Italia and a Dutch Cup).

And Ronaldo should be a better player now considering he's in the prime of his career. He's as strong, quick and gifted as he'll ever be.

But looking back, there's not one of those that you could say - at the time - that you wouldn't have sold either (bar maybe Stam and Ronnie - but we all believed the money would be reinvested). Even RVN, despite how unreal he was for us stunted our fluidity and movement towards the end and the argument with Ronaldo didn't help either.

kryogen

Em, we did not all believe the money would be re invested

And I responded to a question that said name three players who have bettered their careers after leaving Fergie.

I answered, quite easily. You have not said anything to make my answers any less valid so not quite sure what the point is?

As an aside, you can blame lots of things on Forlan not working out, one of them being him constantly played out of position!

Shane St.

Bring On chelsea at the weekend. We really need the win

UnitedIrishman

kryogen wrote: »

Em, we did not all believe the money would be re invested

And I responded to a question that said name three players who have bettered their careers after leaving Fergie.

I answered, quite easily. You have not said anything to make my answers any less valid so not quite sure what the point is?

As an aside, you can blame lots of things on Forlan not working out, one of them being him constantly played out of position!

The point I was trying to say was that players might go on to better their careers but at the time it's the right move for both parties.

And the majority of players don't go on to better things. You could argue what has Ronnie achieved since? Might be a better player but that would've happened at United or any other club. He's achieved less than we have. Same with Stam. Pique is the only one and that's due to certain circumstances.

To be fair, yeah Forlan was played out of position at times but my god for a striker he looked lost in his first couple seasons. His finishing when put through on goal or even in half-chances was shocking. And then every so often it clicked for him and he'd produce a stormer.

I wasn't having a go like, just saying that realistically anywhere from United is going to be a step-down in a players career and there's a very very high possibility that they won't reach the same level again.

Edit: on the money thing, I'm pretty sure everyone thought the 80m was a deal too good to turn down and it would be reinvested, if even partially, in a replacement. Unless you're Nostradamus.

kryogen

You should have a read back through old threads maybe? You will see plenty who didnt believe it would be re invested.

again, I have specified what my post was in response to.....you are trying to talk about another point, has no relevance to what was originally asked...

im not saying I disagree with everything you say, just that its irrelevant to this paeticular topic.

Son Of A Vidic

Blatter wrote: »

Scholesy was brilliant tonight. Where are all those saying it was embarrassing to bring him out of retirement now?

I was one of them and I stand by what I said at the time. Which was, it was a damming indictment of Uniteds midfield weakness, that SAF had to take a veteran out of retirement. I certainly never raised any question over his ability, he is a footballing god after all. But no matter what spin SAF or United put on it, Scholesy did genuinely retire last summer.

As he said himself last May "This was not a decision I have taken lightly but I feel now is the right time for me to stop playing. The man has too much integrity to have lied about this. But "Cometh the hour, cometh the man" as they say, we were in crisis and he puts his love of United first. I just hope the next time he attempts to retire, the United midfield department will not be in a similarly poor state after it.

Son Of A Vidic

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'd be sick if I were Morrison, watching Pogba make his debut while he's on his way to the Championship.

I hope SAF showers Pogba with lots of love now, as a kind of two fingers to Morrison. Great to see Pogba playing tonight and hopefully now we can tie up his future. Because he does look like a magnificent prospect.

Copper_pipe

That was was a real bold move by SAF to bring in Frederic Vesseli from Man City

MagicMarker

When's the next reserves match? Be interesting to see if Vesseli takes part, would like to get a look at him! If it's true that he's likely to become a midfielder then maybe Fergie sees him as a potential long term replacement for Carrick?

Mitch Connor

MagicMarker wrote: »

When's the next reserves match? Be interesting to see if Vesseli takes part, would like to get a look at him! If it's true that he's likely to become a midfielder then maybe Fergie sees him as a potential long term replacement for Carrick?

it is today iirc - being played behind closed doors at Carrington, but being shown live on MUTV from 1pm, i think.

kmart6

Mitch Connor wrote: »

it is today iirc - being played behind closed doors at Carrington, but being shown live on MUTV from 1pm, i think.

Why would it be held behind closed doors but be shown live on TV?!

VW 1

Valencia has reportedly dropped his agent as he wants to stay at united long term. 3 years left on his contract and wants to renew. Can't link as im on the phone but that has a touch of scholes about it.

Mitch Connor

kmart6 wrote: »

Why would it be held behind closed doors but be shown live on TV?!

No idea, think it may have been due to the very negitive reaction they get from it being played behind closed doors; it does seem an odd one but i don't think they play them behind closed doors to hide the game, I reckon the club just couldn't be arsed organising it properly at the usual stadium or for fans to be allowed in.

MagicMarker

Probably my favourite Utd player.

kmart6

Seems really strange!

Orando Broom

kryogen wrote: »

Just to point out

Gerrard Pique
Guissepe Rossi
Diego Forlan
Jaap Stam certainly didnt suffer as a result of leaving
Cristiano Ronaldo, better player now

Just a few points on these. I think United were really unlucky with the Pique situation. He wasn't the full package and you had Ferdinand and Vidic, both in the form of their lives ahead of him. His style of play might not have been as well suited to the Premier League as it is to Barcelona. still a very classy player. If he was emerging today given the injury problems of Ferdinand, I think you'd see Rio on the first flight to the MLS. He was not jsut good enough to command a starting 11 at the time but too good to be a squad player.

Rossi never really impressed me to be honest. Now he wasn't exactly taxed with games at United so maybe I'm being harsh. Was he really going to supplant Ruud Van Nistelrooy or Wayne Rooney as a first choice forward?

Forlan took twenty games to open his acocunt for United. I liked him a lot as a player, his attitude was great but in fairness in never really happned for him at United.

Tinfoil Hat time: There is a part of me that believes Ferguson knew Stam had taken Nandrolone with the Dutch team. I think the book coming out and the fact that he'd have been hammered with a two year ban saw Ferguson use the opportunity to get rid of a huge problem. My conspiracy theory deepened when you saw the disproportionate ban Rio Ferdinand got for missing his test.

kryogen

Orando Broom wrote: »

Just a few points on these. I think United were really unlucky with the Pique situation. He wasn't the full package and you had Ferdinand and Vidic, both in the form of their lives ahead of him. His style of play might not have been as well suited to the Premier League as it is to Barcelona. still a very classy player. If he was emerging today given the injury problems of Ferdinand, I think you'd see Rio on the first flight to the MLS. He was not jsut good enough to command a starting 11 at the time but too good to be a squad player.

Rossi never really impressed me to be honest. Now he wasn't exactly taxed with games at United so maybe I'm being harsh. Was he really going to supplant Ruud Van Nistelrooy or Wayne Rooney as a first choice forward?

Forlan took twenty games to open his acocunt for United. I liked him a lot as a player, his attitude was great but in fairness in never really happned for him at United.

Tinfoil Hat time: There is a part of me that believes Ferguson knew Stam had taken Nandrolone with the Dutch team. I think the book coming out and the fact that he'd have been hammered with a two year ban saw Ferguson use the opportunity to get rid of a huge problem. My conspiracy theory deepened when you saw the disproportionate ban Rio Ferdinand got for missing his test.

Does any of what you have said change the fact that they have gone on to have good careers for themselves?

nicklauski

Keno 92 wrote: »

O Rly?

Ha ha ha ha. Quality.
I won't forget you's when I get the 1st paycheck

On last nights match. I was very impressed with Johnny Evans.
The majority of our attacks forward were started with him intercepting and carrying the ball out of defense. It was great to see how calm and assured he was on the ball and many times he found himself INFRONT of Carrick & Scholes.
Very rarely heard Rio mentioned on the commentary, which shows how much he had to do last night.
Stoke were woeful.

Valencia with another great performance. I see on twitter that he has got rid of his agent and wants to represent himself at United in future. Fair play to him, does his job, no fuss.

One thing that seriously irritated me last night, Berbas miss near the end.
Imagine if that had of been at 1-1 or 0-0. That's the reason i can't see him ever being 1st choice at United again with everyone fit.
Aside from that he had a good game, and some exquisite touches. But for all the talk of Stoke being a big physical side, they didn't exactly put it up to United.

kryogen

Rooney has missed plenty, so has Welbeck, so do all strikers, the problem is when you are creating so few chances in a game the misses are highlighted more.

What should be highlighted more is the lack of chances being created these days!

Used to take Cole 6 chances to score, was never a problem though cause we would create plenty for him

All stikers miss, it comes with the territory, Berba has 8 goals in 8 games. Pretty damn good considering his role in the squad!

Your Airbag

nicklauski wrote: »

One thing that seriously irritated me last night, Berbas miss near the end.
Imagine if that had of been at 1-1 or 0-0. That's the reason i can't see him ever being 1st choice at United again with everyone fit.
Aside from that he had a good game, and some exquisite touches. But for all the talk of Stoke being a big physical side, they didn't exactly put it up to United.

He also looked like the only threat out of both strikers. He dropped deep at times and linked up play well. He laid it on a plate for Carrick, gave Valencia a wonderful pass for his cross which hit a stoke players arm which could have been another penalty and he almost had Scholes through with an exquisite flick and on numerous occasions he took up good positions and was unlucky that the ball didn't come through the Stoke players to him.

Okay he missed that chance at the end but the game was dead and buried by then and the whole team had pretty much dropped a gear and were seeing the game out.

Chico is good at pouncing on loose balls in the box but if he's not getting service he can be anonymous in games and besides the penalty last night he was. Berbatov looked more likely to score or assist all night, he doesn't have Chico's pace but has a much better football brain.

Mitch Connor

kryogen wrote: »

Rooney has missed plenty, so has Welbeck, so do all strikers, the problem is when you are creating so few chances in a game the misses are highlighted more.

What should be highlighted more is the lack of chances being created these days!

Used to take Cole 6 chances to score, was never a problem though cause we would create plenty for him

All stikers miss, it comes with the territory, Berba has 8 goals in 8 games. Pretty damn good considering his role in the squad!

as I said in the match thread last night - we bossed the game for the majority, had loads of possession but Berba's chances at the end was the only clear cut goal scoring opportunity created (with a shot at the end). That has to be a worry to be honest, we lack a cutting edge. Hope Rooney and Nani returning will sort that.

nicklauski

Mitch Connor wrote: »

as I said in the match thread last night - we bossed the game for the majority, had loads of possession but Berba's chances at the end was the only clear cut goal scoring opportunity created (with a shot at the end). That has to be a worry to be honest, we lack a cutting edge. Hope Rooney and Nani returning will sort that.

And in a game with so few chances, you need your strikers to be finishing them.
I'm not having a go at Berba, I think he is a fantastic footballer, and links midfield and attack very well.
I also said he had a very good game, but the miss highlights the reason he won't be 1st choice when Rooney, Wellbeck & Chico are fit.

And as for 8 goals in 8 games. 5 of them came in 2 games :P (just to keep up with the knocking of him last season :P )

kryogen

Little bit much to expect him to be so clinical when he never has been in his whole career and its not what his game is about though, it makes more sense to assume Chico should finish most of the chances that come his way. He is a poacher, its what he does and what is expected of him.

Berba is not, he isnt really a proper striker even, he is just a bloody brilliant footballer who creates and is capable of scoring too.

Mitch Connor

kryogen wrote: »

Little bit much to expect him to be so clinical when he never has been in his whole career and its not what his game is about though, it makes more sense to assume Chico should finish most of the chances that come his way. He is a poacher, its what he does and what is expected of him.

Berba is not, he isnt really a proper striker even, he is just a bloody brilliant footballer who creates and is capable of scoring too.

A miss like the one last night is just terrible, regardless of the type of player he is.

There are chances you would expect any forward to score, and chances that you know they'd be doing well to score from - that one at the end was one he should have scored, it was a bad miss.

kryogen

Mitch Connor wrote: »

A miss like the one last night is just terrible, regardless of the type of player he is.

There are chances you would expect any forward to score, and chances that you know they'd be doing well to score from - that one at the end was one he should have scored, it was a bad miss.

I dont dispute that it was a bad miss, but how many times a season do strikers from all teams miss when they would be expected to score?

MagicMarker

Pogba missed one exactly like Berba's, why is no one pissing and moaning about that?

Fúcking ridiculous.

The_Kew_Tour

Van Persie missed a sitter against us few weeks ago, but he still pretty handy;).

On side not I think we must keep Pogba at all costs and I mean all costs.

abouttobebanned

Shocking that we now have to worry about keeping players.

aperture_nuig

Just on the 8 goals in 8 games stat, yes 5 came from 2 games and that warps the stats, but how many of those games was berba on the pitch for more than ten mins? Or how many of his games have been one after another? It can be difficult for a player to get into the swing of it when he only gets a game out of every 3 or 4, and considering that I think berbs did well. Better than Chico last night anyway.

nicklauski

MagicMarker wrote: »

Pogba missed one exactly like Berba's, why is no one pissing and moaning about that?

Fúcking ridiculous.

Because he is a young midfielder starting his 1st team career.

Berba is (and was) an International class striker.

Jesus I'm not saying the chap should be shot or sold, I'm just saying that strikers should be finishing those chances and because of that he's not first choice. If you could count on Berba finishing chances like those, he would be 1st choice or he might have even made the squad for the CL final.

Orando Broom

kryogen wrote: »

Does any of what you have said change the fact that they have gone on to have good careers for themselves?

No, of course not but the point I am trying to make is that you can't always hold on to good players. Concurrently just becuase they come good elsewhere dows not constitute a mistake or a lack of judgement. Timing was a big factor in some of those moves.

jonnyfingers

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Shocking that we now have to worry about keeping players.

Well if we are worried about keeping players it's not because they're leaving to play for a better team. Most are leaving because of money, and mostly undeserved money, or attitude. So I think United are right to not cave in.

In the case of Morrison his attitude looks to have been the problem as he claims a contract was not on offer. He may well have had unrealistic wage expectations as well. In any case he's gone down a division and to a far inferior club.

Tevez again seemed to be attitude and unrealistic wages/transfer fee. And we're all glad he's gone in hindsight based on his recent attitude.

When Rooney threatened to leave to go play for a "better" team we all know that was an ill-conceived plan to get more money.

In Ronaldo's case he wanted to play for Madrid, that was fair enough, he gave us some good years. I'd argue he didn't leave to play for a better team though.

Any other youngsters who've left have done so as they couldn't make the grade at United.

So if we're worried about keeping players it's really only because of money. I don't have a huge problem with that, especially for youths, as the second you give in to wage demands I think you lose control over that player.

kryogen

Orando Broom wrote: »

No, of course not but the point I am trying to make is that you can't always hold on to good players. Concurrently just becuase they come good elsewhere dows not constitute a mistake or a lack of judgement. Timing was a big factor in some of those moves.

No arguement with that here.

Timing is hugely important in most things.

The_Kew_Tour

So looking ahead to huge clash on Sunday what do you think will be, or should be the lineup?

Rooney and Nani are back hopefully and I think Young may be on the bench also.

Not sure what the story with our keepers is, does anybody know?

this is what I think will be played v Chelsea

Smalling---Evans---Rio---Evra
Valencia--Carrick--Giggs--Nani

---

Rooney

---

Welbeck.

Not sure if Scholes will start considering he played full 90 minuted last night and think Fergie will rotate with himself and Giggs.

The last few years have seen Fergie adopting a 5 man midfield against Chelsea, but think he go more 4-4-2 or in this case 4-4-1-1 for Sunday.

Corvo

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Smalling---Evans---Rio---Evra
Valencia--Carrick--Giggs--Nani

---

Rooney

---

Welbeck.

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

A miss like the one last night is just terrible, regardless of the type of player he is.

Thats a complete overreaction. Torres miss was terrible, Van Persies was terrible, Berbatovs last night was just a miss. He was hitting a fast low ball on the turn and under pressure from a goal side defender. He had a matter of inches to target under pressure, and he missed it by only a matter of inches.

It was a definite chance sure, but it was not a particularly easy chance, and there are plenty of world class strikers who would have missed it as many times as they scored it.

Your Airbag

nicklauski wrote: »

Because he is a young midfielder starting his 1st team career.

Berba is (and was) an International class striker.

Jesus I'm not saying the chap should be shot or sold, I'm just saying that strikers should be finishing those chances and because of that he's not first choice. If you could count on Berba finishing chances like those, he would be 1st choice or he might have even made the squad for the CL final.

He does finish plenty of chances though. All strikers, young or old, international class or not miss chances. Did you see the two sitters Rooney missed against Basel?

Berbatov has seven league goals in nine games.
Welbeck has six league goals in seventeen games.

His quality is not up for question. He is a perfect strike partner for Rooney or anybody else.

MagicMarker

IMO Rafael has to start against Chelsea, especially now that Cole is out. He just offers so much more in attack than the likes of Smalling, who could do with a rest imo.

I wonder if Lindegaard will be back? I think I read somewhere (probably unreliable) that he had ligament damage to his ankle?

VW 1

Surely Cleverley will be in contention for the weekend, at least for the bench as he is back running near 3 weeks at this stage.

Would like to see him get a run out for the reserves first, anyone know the lineup for today's game?

keane2097

MagicMarker wrote: »

Pogba missed one exactly like Berba's, why is no one pissing and moaning about that?

Fúcking ridiculous.

You honestly can't see a difference?

The things people disingenuously act like they need to have explained to them on this thread is laughable.

Heehee.

VW 1

MagicMarker wrote: »

IMO Rafael has to start against Chelsea, especially now that Cole is out. He just offers so much more in attack than the likes of Smalling, who could do with a rest imo.

I wonder if Lindegaard will be back? I think I read somewhere (probably unreliable) that he had ligament damage to his ankle?

Reports were that Lindegaard had left Carrington in a protective boot, whether or not it was precautionary I don't know.

abouttobebanned

How was Amos last night?

The_Kew_Tour

abouttobebanned wrote: »

How was Amos last night?

Did what he had to do, which was not a lot.

I could have been in goals and could have kept clean sheet.

Maximus Alexander

abouttobebanned wrote: »

How was Amos last night?

Stoke had two shots on target and they were both pathetic, so Amos could have sat in a deck chair, facing the stand, with a glass of whiskey and a newspaper and somebody still would have got in front of them.

He didn't look nervous though, which is good I suppose.

MagicMarker

keane2097 wrote: »

You honestly can't see a difference?

Is it the same difference for when Carrick missed his chance? Don't hear anyone complaining about that one either.

All I see is Berbatov playing really rather well, scoring a goal, and people bitching a moaning because he missed one chance, a chance that every single striker that ever fúcking played football has missed at some stage or another.

It's beyond laughable.

The_Kew_Tour

United line up. Kuszczak. Vermijl. Giverin. Fornasier. M. Keane. Thorpe. Brown. Fabio. W. Keane. Petrucci lingard

Your Airbag

A miss is a miss. Its the same for any player young or old. If deemed good enough to get into the first team he should be taking these chances. Nerves may have had something to do with it but the game was dead and buried when he came on.

I'm not starting on Pogba but just saying that Berbatov's miss late on was not a stonewall sitter or any more or less forgivable than any miss from any player.

Saying Berbatov is wasteful and should not be a starter after last nights game, which he scored in btw, is laughable. Should we have dropped Rooney after the Basel game?

Of course not, nor should we do it for Berbatov or Pogba, its football, these things to all players. Berbatov has been very clinical this season when allowed to play.

Son Of A Vidic

nicklauski wrote: »

One thing that seriously irritated me last night, Berbas miss near the end. Imagine if that had of been at 1-1 or 0-0. That's the reason i can't see him ever being 1st choice at United again with everyone fit.

But shocking misses are Berba's forte. Remember when Rooney missed the run-in in 2010? Berba had a host of shocking misses in the last 6-7 games which cost us critical points. So if you want a striker to deliver when it's really needed? Don't count on him. Even his penalty last night was blessed with good fortune, just squeezing under the keeper. In comparison Chico took an excellent penalty, sending the keeper the wrong way. Despite his lay off, it doesn't take long for the oul shoulder shrugging to start up again. I just can't standing watching any player at that whinging oul shyte, never mind one in a United shirt. Hopefully though his time now is short.

keane2097

A striker who can't finish is not something I have time to talk about. Dumbasses.

The_Kew_Tour

Berba reminds me of Andy Cole in that it's not so much the quantity of misses, but the quality of misses. (Cole was my fav player for long time)

Cant see Berba starting at weekend anyway, think it's between Chico and Welbeck and I think it will be latter