A Question Relating to Dogs and Islam

getz

living in a country that one in every three households has a dog,it must be very tricky for a devout muslim,just by walking down a street you can get covered in dog hair,in my case i dont think food tastes the same without dog hair in it,just think geting a bag of chips and saying;does this chip taste of collie ?er no i think its poodle

partyatmygaff

getz wrote: »

like everthing in life,its all down to religious interpretation,many islamic and christian laws of the passed no longer make any sense .no longer religious inquisitions [christion] or shooting a jew hiding behind a rock [islam],when i walk my bullie down the street i get all sort of reactions from our muslim british citizens,from the young islamic children running over wanting to pat and kiss him when at the same time their mother stands well away in fear,so its down to your religious upbringing and westernization

Even in countries with a sizeable Islamic population (North Africa for example) there's nothing really made of keeping dogs as pets. It's quite acceptable and only the extremest of extreme would make an issue of it.

Sonics2k

I honestly cannot tell if our dear dead friend is an idiot, or just some insane troll of wonderfully terrifying proportions.

dead one

Sonics2k wrote: »

I honestly cannot tell if our dear dead friend is an idiot, or just some insane troll of wonderfully terrifying proportions.

would you please attack the post not poster... I guess you're not idiot... As you're quite intelligent but not than me... but it's very sad to know when some people badly busted they start attacking the users like Dades.. I feel pity.. I have proven all my point why dogs lead some serious issues in house... the youtube videos which i posted are clear as crystal... and some people start denying these videos that you tube videos aren't science..... my duty is only to convey message... I can't cure you people from sickness... The sickness with which corkfeen is suffering.. I am only tutor/mentor..thanks

Corkfeen

What sickness is this? I've never heard anyone describe normality as a sickness. Youtube videos of dogs is not scientific evidence as I have already explained.... I shall apply the dead one's amazing scientific abilities to this thread now. Here's a video of a dog playing a piano. This is clear evidence that dogs are musical geniuses.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLrLlu6KDss

partyatmygaff

dead one wrote: »

would you please attack the post not poster... I guess you're not idiot... As you're quite intelligent but not than me...

If you want people to agree with you on that, prove it. So far, you've done nothing but prove the opposite.

but it's very sad to know when some people badly busted they start attacking the users like Dades.. I feel pity..

I feel that you're conceited in yourself and your "points" and have deluded yourself to think that what you posted actually has any weight.

I have proven all my point why dogs lead some serious issues in house...

No, you haven't. Youtube videos are not scientific evidence of general trends in a particular species. In fact, as I said earlier, on youtube there are far more videos of humans doing things that may cause "serious issues" than dogs. By your way of thinking, as certain humans cause "serious issues", all humans should be banned from the home.

the youtube videos which i posted are clear as crystal... and some people start denying these videos that you tube videos aren't science..... my duty is only to convey message...

Poor righteous you trying to "convey a message" against the swathes of people looking for a bit more than nonsensical reasoning and random Youtube videos. Your attempts on this thread so far have been embarrassingly pathetic.

I can't cure you people from sickness... The sickness with which corkfeen is suffering.. I am only tutor/mentor..thanks

And it appears that nothing can cure you of your ignorance and inability to make a single reasoned point. That appears to be your "sickness".

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

but it's very sad to know when some people badly busted they start attacking the users like Dades..

Its very rude to attack a poster in a forum they don't frequent. If you want to complain about Dades then you should let him know so he can defend himself.

dead one wrote: »

I have proven all my point why dogs lead some serious issues in house...

You have done no such thing. You have ignored every point put to you and relied on a youtube video as if it represented all dogs. I used to think you weren't a troll, that you were just a strong believer with poor english. But someone that will just put do the intellectual equivalent of putting their fingers in their ears clearly lacks any conviction in what they say.

HamletOrHecuba

This could have been an interesting thread.

I have been told that Russian Orthodox Old Ritualists in Siberia believe that dog's are accursed because they were supposed to warn Adam of any danger in Eden but instead slept which allowed the serpent to take advantage. It would be interesting to hear if similar stories exist in Islamic culture; however what he get instead is the self-righteous pontificating of intolerant "Liberals".
.

Mark Hamill

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

It would be interesting to hear if similar stories exist in Islamic culture; however what he get instead is the self-righteous pontificating of intolerant "Liberals".
.

We are intolerant because we tolerate dogs? Do you agree with dead ones opinions on doggy hygiene and diseases?

partyatmygaff

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

would be interesting to hear if similar stories exist in Islamic culture; however what he get instead is the self-righteous pontificating of intolerant "Liberals".

No we're not. We're getting people who are "intolerant" of the ridiculous nonsense being posted by dead one.

"Dogs are dirty and here's some scientific evidence in the way of Youtube videos. What? You don't agree with me? Obviously you're all sick and twisted and even I, the benevolent tutor cannot cure you of your sickness."

Pontification and self-righteousness indeed.

There are no "liberals" and "conservatives" in this thread. "Liberalism" is not analogous to "being sensible" (Although i'm sure some would wish that it was).

Discodog

If Islam is so intolerant of dogs then it begs the question as to whether any Prophet or God, that preached intolerance, is worthy of following. If I were to follow a religion, which I don't at present, I would want it to be tolerant & inclusive. In other words to represent the values that we hold dear in society.

There is a fine line between intolerance & extremism & Islam needs to make it totally clear as to where the religion stands.

HamletOrHecuba

Discodog wrote: »

If Islam is so intolerant of dogs then it begs the question as to whether any Prophet or God, that preached intolerance, is worthy of following. If I were to follow a religion, which I don't at present, I would want it to be tolerant & inclusive. In other words to represent the values that we hold dear in society.

There is a fine line between intolerance & extremism & Islam needs to make it totally clear as to where the religion stands.

Than you understand nothing about the nature of revealed Religion.

old_aussie

dead one wrote: »

Then keep a dog at home, when you will get disease from it.. you will understand.. otherwise there is no way to convince you...

huh

Why Dogs Lick Human Wounds



It's an interesting question, so let's start with why they lick their own wounds first.

First of all, a dog's saliva is very clean, as compared to a humans. And of course, their saliva contains enzymes, etc. which aid a dog in both cleaning their wounds and to promote healing.

The second reason is most likely, instinct. After all, they lick their wounds, so why not yours, and for the same reason, just as a mother dog would lick the wounds of one of her pups, should it get injured.

It's strange, but after a period of time, you realize that the dog isn't as much your pet, as you're theirs. That's where the training begins, and you've got a lot to learn. Don't worry though, it won't be long before you're properly trained.

Chalk it up to praternal/maternal instinct. Our canine friends are a devoted species, and they too feel that they must take care of their human pets.

mosi

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

This could have been an interesting thread...however what he get instead is the self-righteous pontificating of intolerant "Liberals".
.

I fail to see this liberal self righteous pontificating that you speak of. As for intolerance, one contributor here, "Dead One", has insulted people and put forward daft Youtube videos as "scientific evidence". I think that contributors here are genuinely interested in the issue that is being discussed and I know that, I for one, would like to hear a number of Islamic - and other - perspectives on the matter, debated in a rational way.

Discodog

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Than you understand nothing about the nature of revealed Religion.

Most religions including Islam have little tolerance of non believers or anyone with their view. I understand enough about religion to avoid it !

Wibbs

dead one wrote: »

House smelling like dog. That's big disadvantage of dog... You get smell from dog and it can hurt people to whom you meat...

It's been a few centuries since I heard the miasma theory of disease transmission.

old_aussie wrote: »

First of all, a dog's saliva is very clean, as compared to a humans. And of course, their saliva contains enzymes, etc. which aid a dog in both cleaning their wounds and to promote healing.

Funny enough a couple of studies have found dog saliva inhibits bacterial growth in a number of species of same. The licking action also removes debris from the wound. Dogs saliva has much stronger anti bacterial action than human. Well when you think about it, a dog can dig up a rancid bone from the garden they've buried weeks ago and chew away happily. A bone that if you touched it might land you in hospital. Hang on, maybe the Muslim folks have a point. The immune stuff is interesting. Dogs and humans have been hanging out together for at least 30,000 years and likely longer. We've adapted to each other and can transmit far fewer diseases to each other than say cats and birds, even cattle for example.

mosi wrote: »

I fail to see this liberal self righteous pontificating that you speak of. As for intolerance, one contributor here, "Dead One", has insulted people and put forward daft Youtube videos as "scientific evidence". I think that contributors here are genuinely interested in the issue that is being discussed and I know that, I for one, would like to hear a number of Islamic - and other - perspectives on the matter, debated in a rational way.

+1. It's an interesting aspect of the faith. Now this is just IMHO, but maybe the directive was aimed at reducing the emotional distractions that might come with dog ownership? Many people get very emotionally attached to their pets and possibly the early faith leaders saw this as a bad thing. That they should be focusing on other people and their god? This might explain the fact that dogs are perfectly fine in Islam in a practical sense, even encouraged.

dead one

Discodog wrote: »

If Islam is so intolerant of dogs then it begs the question as to whether any Prophet or God, that preached intolerance, is worthy of following. If I were to follow a religion, which I don't at present, I would want it to be tolerant & inclusive. In other words to represent the values that we hold dear in society.

There is a fine line between intolerance & extremism & Islam needs to make it totally clear as to where the religion stands.

discodog.. Islam isn't intolerant of dogs. It is tolerant to human. If you have reason to keep dog in you house then it doesn't forbid.. If you're keeping a dog without any reason then you need cure. If you are closely attached to dogs like corkfeen than sickness is coming for you, to avoid sickness you must not attach yourself to dogs... Everything happens for a reason.

dead one

Discodog wrote: »

Most religions including Islam have little tolerance of non believers or anyone with their view.

What difference does it make in case of atheism.. We are all deadmen walking

Corkfeen

I take it that Dead One has no response to my earlier points and simply is going to claim that disease is coming for me. It's somewhat sad that you are so incapable of arguing your point with legitimate sources. Oh well...

Bullseye1

dead one wrote: »

discodog.. Islam isn't intolerant of dogs. It is tolerant to human. If you have reason to keep dog in you house then it doesn't forbid.. If you're keeping a dog without any reason then you need cure. If you are closely attached to dogs like corkfeen than sickness is coming for you, to avoid sickness you must not attach yourself to dogs... Everything happens for a reason.

If humans did not attach themselves to dogs while they where living in caves it's possible we as a species would not have survived and evolved.

http://m.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/05/humanitys-best-friend-how-dogs-may-have-helped-humans-beat-the-neanderthals/257145/

Discodog

dead one wrote: »

discodog.. Islam isn't intolerant of dogs. It is tolerant to human. If you have reason to keep dog in you house then it doesn't forbid.. If you're keeping a dog without any reason then you need cure. If you are closely attached to dogs like corkfeen than sickness is coming for you, to avoid sickness you must not attach yourself to dogs... Everything happens for a reason.

I agree. Islam is intolerant of anyone who might have a different opinion. Corkfeen doesn't need to be cured. The scientific & anecdotal evidence suggests that animal lovers, such as Corkfeen & I, will lead longer & more fulfilled lives.

dead one wrote: »

What difference does it make in case of atheism.. We are all deadmen walking

I agree but I don't believe that, if I follow a set code, I will go to heaven. Neither do I believe in hell. So my actions are governed by what feels morally right & acceptable rather than the directives of those who lived thousands of years ago.

Muslims should be promoting their religion & seeking to ally the fears of others. You are hardly going to win friends by suggesting that millions of animal owners need to be cured. The Islamic communities are quick to condemn what they perceive as insults to their religion. Yet here you are insulting the huge number of dog owners who choose to have a close relationship with their pets.

vibe666

there is strong (recent) scientific evidence that children growing up in houses where dogs and cats are kept as pets have significantly reduced risk of allergies, some as much as a 50% or more reduction. http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20020728214213data_trunc_sys.shtml

also, dead one, i'd recommend you google for a video called "2 girls one cup". by your own reasoning, the fact that this video exists is plenty enough evidence to declare all humans filthy and unclean and therefore not fit to live in houses.

in related news, here's a video of a man juggling that i'm going to use to prove (using dead one's bulletproof scientific reasoning) that every human on the planet is also a world class juggler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP8tbLBls_M

dead one

Corkfeen wrote: »

I take it that Dead One has no response to my earlier points and simply is going to claim that disease is coming for me. It's somewhat sad that you are so incapable of arguing your point with legitimate sources. Oh well...

Yes I am done, the symptoms of the disease become more advanced. Suffering and pain awaits for you. See every thing in the world happen for reason, your relationship with dog will lead you the same reason.. The same reason why are you with dog.

dead one

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If humans did not attach themselves to dogs while they where living in caves it's possible we as a species would not have survived and evolved.

http://m.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/05/humanitys-best-friend-how-dogs-may-have-helped-humans-beat-the-neanderthals/257145/

by attaching to dogs, I mean close attachment, as human kiss each other.. The pereference of dog in your than human. See corkfeen said, he sits with his dog on regular bases, he gives more time to a dog than human around. That's what i am mentioning. It is pure sickness. May be you will find the truth one day.

old_aussie

dead one wrote: »

Yes I am done, the symptoms of the disease become more advanced. Suffering and pain awaits for you. See every thing in the world happen for reason, your relationship with dog will lead you the same reason.. The same reason why are you with dog.

My family has always had dogs as pets.

My grandmother Florence Augusta Comans (1880 - 1982) had dogs since she was a little girl and litterally died of old age, never had any disease or problems.The rest of our family has had no disease or problems.

dead one your argument is full of it, and you have no proof / statistics what so ever and just continue to talk rubbish.

If whay you say is true most of the non muslim population would have died out centuries ago.

dead one

Discodog wrote: »

I agree. Islam is intolerant of anyone who might have a different opinion.

So why are the people intolerant against him who might have a different opinion. Are you following Islam.

Discodog wrote: »

Corkfeen doesn't need to be cured.

No one cure corkfeen because his disease at advance stage and can't be cure... You can consider it spiritual disease, mental disease, or physical disease..

Discodog wrote: »

The scientific & anecdotal evidence suggests that animal lovers, such as Corkfeen & I, will lead longer & more fulfilled lives.

Science isn't absolute all times, my friend. You put faith in science and science has its faith on something else. science is no messiah. The only treasure science has, is knowledge but what you need is not science.. it's seer's eyes

Discodog wrote: »

Muslims should be promoting their religion & seeking to ally the fears of others. You are hardly going to win friends by suggesting that millions of animal owners need to be cured. The Islamic communities are quick to condemn what they perceive as insults to their religion. Yet here you are insulting the huge number of dog owners who choose to have a close relationship with their pets.

I am telling the truth because i have seen in my life what has become of those who closely attach themselves to dog. I don't hate anything in the world, every thing is sacred in its Essene as long as it remain in its essence

dead one

old_aussie wrote: »

My family has always had dogs as pets.
My grandmother Florence Augusta Comans (1880 - 1982) had dogs since she was a little girl and litterally died of old age, never had any disease or problems.The rest of our family has had no disease or problems.

I think, you grandmother Florence Augusta Comans hadn't attached herself so closely to dogs, That's the reason you family didn't get any disease, I mean she didnt hug or kiss the dogs or dogs didn't hug her. She was careful with dogs. That's the reason.. See how i know your grandmother than you.

old_aussie wrote: »

If whay you say is true most of the non muslim population would have died out centuries ago.

Most of the non muslim population don't keep dog. Why should they be dead. See it's sickness to attach yourself with dogs.... As some of friends are sick of pigeons... They pass their day and night with pigeon don't care for other people... the other day i saw two people are fighting for pigeons... It's pure sickness

HamletOrHecuba

Humans bare the Image of God, dogs do not, so this treating of dogs with a human dignity as if they children which you do find in the west does have something seriously wrong about it. Some Greek I think once remarked in disgust about my people- the English-"they treat their dogs better than they treat their servants".

getz

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Humans bare the Image of God, dogs do not, so this treating of dogs with a human dignity as if they children which you do find in the west does have something seriously wrong about it. Some Greek I think once remarked in disgust about my people- the English-"they treat their dogs better than they treat their servants".

image of god,thats religion and a personal faith, not fact

HamletOrHecuba

getz wrote: »

image of god,thats religion and a personal faith, not fact

Its something that Islam accepts though? Might it not go some way to explaining why Muslims dont follow the weird western practice of treating dogs as if they were family members? Do you honestly believe that their is no essential difference between a man and a dog?

People pushing atheism and agnosticism down the throats of the Islam forum is rather annoying; maybe there should be a Muslim/Atheist debate mega thread?

Corkfeen

dead one wrote: »

So why are the people intolerant against him who might have a different opinion. Are you following Islam.

No one cure corkfeen because his disease at advance stage and can't be cure... You can consider it spiritual disease, mental disease, or physical disease..

I am telling the truth because i have seen in my life what has become of those who closely attach themselves to dog. I don't hate anything in the world, every thing is sacred in its Essene as long as it remain in its essence

Your opinion is idiotic, that's why it holds no validity. I am at my physical peak at the moment and mentally i'm not too bad either. What exactly does a spiritual disease entail? Will I need an exorcism of some variety? :eek:

dead one wrote: »

I think, you grandmother Florence Augusta Comans hadn't attached herself so closely to dogs, That's the reason you family didn't get any disease, I mean she didnt hug or kiss the dogs or dogs didn't hug her. She was careful with dogs. That's the reason.. See how i know your grandmother than you.


Most of the non muslim population don't keep dog. Why should they be dead. See it's sickness to attach yourself with dogs.... As some of friends are sick of pigeons... They pass their day and night with pigeon don't care for other people... the other day i saw two people are fighting for pigeons... It's pure sickness

My family have been dog owners for generations and my father's side of the family have lived till their late eighties and some even to the age of hundred. I haven't ever kissed my dog so i'm not sure if you understand what keeping a dog as a companion means. So this once again would work well against your unsubstantiated bull**** theory..... It's insulting for you to claim that you know a person's grandparents better than them btw.

dead one wrote: »

Yes I am done, the symptoms of the disease become more advanced. Suffering and pain awaits for you. See every thing in the world happen for reason, your relationship with dog will lead you the same reason.. The same reason why are you with dog.

I think there's only one person in this dialogue that is certifiable and it's not me.....

vibe666

if anyone (non-muslim, i'll assume all muslims know this already) is interested in where this irrational fear/hatred of dogs comes from, this should give you an idea: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/dogs.htm

it makes for some *interesting* reading. :rolleyes:

vibe666

vibe666 wrote: »

if anyone (non-muslim, i'll assume all muslims know this already) is interested in where this irrational fear/hatred of dogs comes from, this should give you an idea: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/dogs.htm

it makes for some *interesting* reading. :rolleyes:

wtf:eek:

dead one

Corkfeen wrote: »

Your opinion is idiotic, that's why it holds no validity. I am at my physical peak at the moment and mentally i'm not too bad either. What exactly does a spiritual disease entail? Will I need an exorcism of some variety? :eek:

But I see something which other can't see in you mentality, dear corkfeen. It' simple what shakepear had seen the other can't see.

Corkfeen wrote: »

My family have been dog owners for generations and my father's side of the family have lived till their late eighties and some even to the age of hundred. I haven't ever kissed my dog so i'm not sure if you understand what keeping a dog as a companion means. So this once again would work well against your unsubstantiated bull**** theory..... It's insulting for you to claim that you know a person's grandparents better than them btw.

Corkfeen i have come here to cure from the sickness with which your generations are suffering. Dogs are Dogs and human are human... let us get ourselves close to humanity.. let us not hate humanity because of these dogs. I know it is very difficult for you to leave dogs and get close yourself to poor human who are suffering.. The only crime they have done is that they are human .

Corkfeen

dead one wrote: »

But I see something which other can't see in you mentality, dear corkfeen. It' simple what shakepear had seen the other can't see.

Corkfeen i have come here to cure from the sickness with which your generations are suffering. Dogs are Dogs and human are human... let us get ourselves close to humanity.. let us not hate humanity because of these dogs. I know it is very difficult for you to leave dogs and get close yourself to poor human who are suffering.. The only crime they have done is that they are human .

Firstly, you shouldn't compare yourself to Shakespeare, you are not remotely close to being a master of any field going by your posts. I know many more humans than the amount of dogs I know. Many posters, myself included have illustrated how your posts make absolutely no sense and have no evidence to back them up. The health benefits to owning a dog are far greater than any negative aspects. This proves without a doubt that your arguments is entirely lacking in rational or reasonable points. You haven't even properly given the religious objections for it and simply keep going back to disease ridden dogs which is bull****....

HamletOrHecuba

vibe666 wrote: »

if anyone (non-muslim, i'll assume all muslims know this already) is interested in where this irrational fear/hatred of dogs comes from, this should give you an idea: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/dogs.htm

it makes for some *interesting* reading. :rolleyes:

LOL that site whinges about how dogs are treated and than goes on to support the theft of land through murder (including land belonging to Christians who's only crime was to be arab) and the raining down of white phospherous on children. It also complains about the lack of religious liberty in the middle east and than supports the invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of the Baathist party which was extremely favourable to Christians. So Im sorry if I wont take it as a source for accurate information on Islam.

getz

as muslims are the only ones going to heaven, and i a unbeliever the west does not need to bother about getting a spiritual disease anyway

partyatmygaff

dead one wrote: »

by attaching to dogs, I mean close attachment, as human kiss each other.. The pereference of dog in your than human.

Very few people would (In spite of what they say) prefer the company of a dog to a human.

dead one wrote: »

No one cure corkfeen because his disease at advance stage and can't be cure... You can consider it spiritual disease, mental disease, or physical disease..

I've never heard such offensive nonsense in my life.

I am telling the truth because i have seen in my life what has become of those who closely attach themselves to dog. I don't hate anything in the world, every thing is sacred in its Essene as long as it remain in its essence

Do tell!

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Its something that Islam accepts though? Might it not go some way to explaining why Muslims dont follow the weird western practice of treating dogs as if they were family members? Do you honestly believe that their is no essential difference between a man and a dog?

No one has said that. People's main gripe is with dead_one's dodgy reasoning about how dogs should be banned because "dogs are unclean".

People pushing atheism and agnosticism down the throats of the Islam forum is rather annoying; maybe there should be a Muslim/Atheist debate mega thread?

I completely disagree with dead_one and I am a Christian.

dead one wrote: »

But I see something which other can't see in you mentality, dear corkfeen. It' simple what shakepear had seen the other can't see.

Corkfeen i have come here to cure from the sickness with which your generations are suffering. Dogs are Dogs and human are human... let us get ourselves close to humanity.. let us not hate humanity because of these dogs. I know it is very difficult for you to leave dogs and get close yourself to poor human who are suffering.. The only crime they have done is that they are human .

What in the name of God am I reading?

Mark Hamill

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Humans bare the Image of God,

In what way do we bare the image of god?

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

dogs do not, so this treating of dogs with a human dignity as if they children which you do find in the west does have something seriously wrong about it. Some Greek I think once remarked in disgust about my people- the English-"they treat their dogs better than they treat their servants".

And many in the west treat their cats in the same way as they treat their dogs, and yet not a word said about them in the quran. There was a Louis Theroux documentary on the TV a week ago or so, about people who had exotic pets which they treated like children (various primates, some in clothing and even a kangaroo in a pram). And yet there is nothing about other animals in the quran. Its singles out only dogs. Your post hoc rationalisations don't change that.

Mark Hamill

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Its something that Islam accepts though? Might it not go some way to explaining why Muslims dont follow the weird western practice of treating dogs as if they were family members? Do you honestly believe that their is no essential difference between a man and a dog?

Is there any more difference between a man and a dog and between a man and any other animal? Why does the quran* single out dogs? Why should it talk about any animals in this way at all? Is there really that big of an issue with treating animals well? Why the assumption that if you stop someone from treating a dog well that they will transfer their affection onto humans?

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

People pushing atheism and agnosticism down the throats of the Islam forum is rather annoying; maybe there should be a Muslim/Atheist debate mega thread?

Thats incredibly disingenuous. Has anyone even remotely attempted to use dead one's dog fallacies as a reason for people to become atheist?

Why is it, by the way, that posters on this forum will so quickly accuse non muslims (christians and all) of pushing atheism when a thread isn't going their way? Its like this forum has its own version of Godwin Law, but instead of nazism its accusations of atheism being pushed on people.

*EDIT: As Hivizman points out, that should be "hadiths", not "quran". My point still stands though.

Mark Hamill

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why is it, by the way, that posters on this forum will so quickly accuse non muslims (christians and all) of pushing atheism when a thread isn't going their way? Its like this forum has its own version of Godwin Law, but instead of nazism its accusations of atheism being pushed on people.

Christians seem to assume on the forums that unless explicitly stated otherwise, !christian = atheist
same for in here, it seems

hivizman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Is there any more difference between a man and a dog and between a man and any other animal? Why does the quran single out dogs? Why should it talk about any animals in this way at all? Is there really that big of an issue with treating animals well? Why the assumption that if you stop someone from treating a dog well that they will transfer their affection onto humans?

Actually, all the negative Islamic teachings about dogs come from traditions of Muhammad. The Qur'an mentions dogs in only two passages. One of these, Surat al-Kahf, tells the story of some young men who went into a cave and slept there for 309 years - these men apparently had a dog who lay "stretching out his paws at the threshold" (Surat al-Kahf 18:18). Some commentaries have attempted to explain the presence of the dog by describing it as a guard-dog.

The other passage is Surat al-A'raf 7:175-176, where a dog is used in a simile. In Yusuf Ali's translation, this reads: "Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray. If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect."

getz

hivizman wrote: »

Actually, all the negative Islamic teachings about dogs come from traditions of Muhammad. The Qur'an mentions dogs in only two passages. One of these, Surat al-Kahf, tells the story of some young men who went into a cave and slept there for 309 years - these men apparently had a dog who lay "stretching out his paws at the threshold" (Surat al-Kahf 18:18). Some commentaries have attempted to explain the presence of the dog by describing it as a guard-dog.

The other passage is Surat al-A'raf 7:175-176, where a dog is used in a simile. In Yusuf Ali's translation, this reads: "Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray. If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect."

dogs were not only kept for working purposes/guarding/hunting, in the early days of man[strange as it may seem],they were also kept in bed to attract the fleas that bite people,dogs have a higher blood temp.keep you warm in the winter and the fleas off in the summer

hivizman

getz wrote: »

dogs were not only kept for working purposes/guarding/hunting, in the early days of man[strange as it may seem],they were also kept in bed to attract the fleas that bite people,dogs have a higher blood temp.keep you warm in the winter and the fleas off in the summer

Interesting. The general consensus of Muslim scholars is that dogs are not in themselves impure, but their saliva and urine are ritually impure, so getting dog saliva or urine on your body, clothes or eating and drinking vessels makes these ritually unclean.

The following extract from the Tafsir Ibn Kathir, a widely recognised commentary on the Qur'an from the 14th century CE, interprets the place of the dog in Surat al-Kahf:

Their dog lay down at the door, as is the habit of dogs. Ibn Jurayj said, "He was guarding the door for them.'' It was his nature and habit to lie down at their door as if guarding them. He was sitting outside the door, because the angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog, as was reported in As-Sahih [Bukhari and Muslim], nor do they enter a house in which there is an image, a person in a state of ritual impurity or a disbeliever, as was narrated in the Hasan Hadith. The blessing they enjoyed [i.e. sleeping for 309 years without growing older] extended to their dog, so the sleep that overtook them overtook him too. This is the benefit of accompanying good people, and so this dog attained fame and stature. It was said that he was the hunting dog of one of the people which is the more appropriate view, or that he was the dog of the king's cook, who shared their religious views, and brought his dog with him. And Allah knows best.

Given the existence of Hadiths hostile to dogs, ibn Kathir needs to explain away the presence of a dog in the "sleepers in the cave" story in the Qur'an. So first of all he claims that the god is "sitting outside the door" (when the Qur'an states that the dog's fore-legs are on the threshold of the cave, suggesting that the dog is largely inside the cave), and then the dog is asserted to be a hunting dog, so it comes within the classes of dog that are clearly permitted.

Mark Hamill

hivizman wrote:

Actually, all the negative Islamic teachings about dogs come from traditions of Muhammad.

The Hadiths? OK my mistake.

hivizman wrote: »

Interesting. The general consensus of Muslim scholars is that dogs are not in themselves impure, but their saliva and urine are ritually impure, so getting dog saliva or urine on your body, clothes or eating and drinking vessels makes these ritually unclean.

A friend of mine, a Malaysian muslim, has a special soap she can use if she comes into contact with a dog.

vibe666

Mark Hamill wrote: »

A friend of mine, a Malaysian muslim, has a special soap she can use if she comes into contact with a dog.

sounds very posh, but i feel sorry for the poor dog who can only lick his balls to get rid of the taste of human.

HamletOrHecuba

bluewolf wrote: »

Christians seem to assume on the forums that unless explicitly stated otherwise, !christian = atheist
same for in here, it seems

He has a very strange screen name for a Christian and I have never seen him post on the Christian forum here. Traditionally in Christianity if a dog entered a Church it had to be re-consecrated by a Bishop; a believe that the Russian Old Believers, the Greek Old Calendarists and the conservative part of the Assyrian Church of the East still believe this.

partyatmygaff

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

He has a very strange screen name for a Christian

How so?

and I have never seen him post on the Christian forum here.

I've got over 100 posts in the Christianity forum and many more on other forums. If you don't want to believe me, ask any of the regulars on the forum or even ask on this thread.

But that is neither here nor there.

HamletOrHecuba

partyatmygaff wrote: »

How so?

I've got over 100 posts in the Christianity forum and many more on other forums. If you don't want to believe me, ask any of the regulars on the forum or even ask on this thread.

But that is neither here nor there.

Christians dont believe in partying.

Okay fair enough. The fact remains though that the ancient Christian attitude to dogs is very similar to the Muslim one.

Discodog

hivizman wrote: »

Interesting. The general consensus of Muslim scholars is that dogs are not in themselves impure, but their saliva and urine are ritually impure, so getting dog saliva or urine on your body, clothes or eating and drinking vessels makes these ritually unclean.

Firstly thank you for providing some rational comment & explanation - it was badly needed

But the Saluki is specifically excluded from all of the above & yet it's saliva & urine are identical to any other breed.