how long is too long

fl4pj4ck · 27-12-2011 3:15am #1

Here's the story: I've done a website (as a freelancer, not a company) for well known local businessman, following few meetings with him and his workers.
I paid for the domain (which I still legally own) and hosting, gave 3 training sessions on Wordpress to the workers and sat down waiting for the cheque to come. It was over 2 years ago (Summer '09).

After some time I started enquiring about the payment, didn't push too hard, but was told that anytime I will need the money I just need to ask. Didn't need the money back then, but as you all know times has changed.

Over the two years we met ocassionaly and spoke about the invoice and I was asked several times to email it, which I've done a couple times. I also emailed the workers, as they seemed to be in charge of the website, and many times got the same excuses ("We'll pass the invoice to the boss", etc).

Now, over two years later I said enough is enough. I replaced the website with the following: http://i.imgur.com/wbLFV.png

I also immediately emailed the company about this fact in polite words. Now imageine the owner emailed me back and he's insisting on discussing the payment (which was discussed many times before and agreed upon). I am 100% sure he will try to evade the payment again, so I emailed him:

Hi ***,
I will be more than happy to meet you and discuss whatever you want once this invoice is paid. I'm sorry but it's been over two years I haven't been paid for my work, despite numerous requests sent by email, over the phone and in person.
regards,

He didn't get it and replied to me again asking for a meeting, which I am not going to give him.

Now my question: I want to email him again telling him there will be no further communication until the bill has been settled. Can you tell me if that's what you'd do in such case? I'm a polite person, but my patience is long gone. Also, I still am holding the domain name 'hostage' as you might say, as I told him I'm not handling it over until I'm paid. The amount is not huge (sub-1000) but at my current circumstances I simply need that money. Oh, and before you ask - the guy is filthy rich, which he shows left and right all the time, so he can afford to pay me anytime I think.

Am I asking too much?

Joseph · 27-12-2011 6:36am

I was put into a similar situation as you. I had built the website and told them in advance how much it would cost. They agreed in writing.

When it came to getting paid they were shocked at what I was asking for (I actually under-charged them because I was inexperienced). They delayed and delayed paying so I wrote up a formal letter notifying them that if they didn't pay within 5 working days the website would be disabled.

I dropped that letter to them personally and within an hour of dropping it over I was phoned directly by their MD. He was an aggressive twat and started physically threatening me.

Monday morning we agreed to meet. I walked into his board room sat down and stated all the facts, and backed it up with a copy of what they had written. He then offered to pay me half of what I was due (as in, full payment) which I refused and said I would have to take further action if he did not pay me in full. I stood my ground and he did pay me and the website wasn't put offline.

Hope that little story helps

CamperMan · 27-12-2011 1:02pm

welcome to the club!

this is the time where most businesses simply will not part with money if they can help it.. they are already massively in debt, they have hugh overheads and many are struggling to keep their business alive from one day to the next.

I have been doing websites now since 1999, and this year has been the worst for business, people simply ignore the invoices, and then they go nuts when I suspend the website for non payment...

Times are tough for most people!

tricky D · 27-12-2011 3:53pm

For legal reasons I'd remove the 'due to non-payment' part.

Only go to meet him for the cheque and discuss and say nothing apart from do you have the cheque.

In future, 1st invoice 28 days, 7 days final notice, then suspension or solictors letter.

iMax · 27-12-2011 3:58pm

Perfectly within your rights to do as you are the domain owner.

Did similiar & got paid inside a week before.

You're also entitled to charge interest at 0.02% per day overdue.

wobbles · 27-12-2011 4:10pm

I would also remove 'due to non payment' but i would replace it with 'due to financial issues'. You need to try shame them into paying.

Best of luck. Stand your ground, dont let them intimiate you

tricky D · 27-12-2011 4:23pm

Trying to shame them is a really bad idea. An embarrassed and quite likely antagonised client is quite likely to have higher resistance to paying which you don't want. It's best to say nothing. By suggesting they might have financial issues also opens you to being sued if it's not true. The bottom line is you want to get paid, not to embarrass them or create any further trouble, so keep it to that simple bottom line only.

The other reason for omitting non-payment is that there might be genuine reasons why payment has not been made. However that is very unlikely here.

27-12-2011 4:26pm

Op, I'd be 100% behind you, they are clearly taking the proverbial after 2 years.

One thing that's worth bearing in mind is that this type of method might put off potential customers of yours. I would hesitate before dealing with someone who did something like that! 2 years is one thing, but how am I to know that it won't be me next if I'm a couple of days late?

It's not directed at you, but just something to keep in the back of your head for next time; and anyone who charged me 0.02% per day would be paid in full immediately, and never dealt with again.

Edit; totally agree with trickyd here, remove the "non payment" bit, visitors to the site will probably infer that anyway!

CamperMan · 27-12-2011 4:43pm

I simply have a standard Suspended Page

example here

with a link to contact the accounts department.

Axwell · 27-12-2011 6:19pm

Id remove the bit about payment on the holding page. Once the site isnt up there then the client will be on to you to fix it. Having due to non payment on it will just annoy them more and cause them to try and delay things even more in some attempt to retaliate. Just leave it at accoun suspended and to contact you and send them an email. If they send any more emails ignoring it looking to meet just say all meetings are on hold till the previous issue regarding payment is dealt with.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 27-12-2011 9:49pm

Out of interest what did you do about the emails if you are hosting the site for the client? The Website might not be an urgent fix but if the emails were suspended it might make a resolution more urgent if they use them.

fl4pj4ck · 27-12-2011 10:25pm

thanks for your support, I'm considering editing out the reason for suspension.

@Ronan: email wasn't a part of the deal. and I actually didn't suspend the hosting, I just redirected all the www traffic to a single suspension page.

AndyJB · 28-12-2011 12:28am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

thanks for your support, I'm considering editing out the reason for suspension.

@Ronan: email wasn't a part of the deal. and I actually didn't suspend the hosting, I just redirected all the www traffic to a single suspension page.

From my own experience if the invoice is less than 2 or 3k it'd probably cost you more in legals to collect it and the guy knows it.

Here's my few pennies worth...
1) Send him a registered letter simply stating full payment is due in 7 days and after this time matter will be handed over to debt collection agency and enclose the invoice. On invoice clearly state that domain(s) and development and or works undertaken remain the sole property of the developer until full payment is received.
2) As mentioned by previous poster remove "none payment text from site message".
3) Just wondering is it a dot IE or dot COM?
4) Any idea what the site hits or visits are?
5) Do they have any competitors here or overseas?
6) If debt agency fail to collect approach competitors with view to selling them the site and/or place advert on site that domain is for sale, but only if site is not a dot IE

I know its a hard lesson and I have been in your position, but in future be sure to get partial payments upfront. If a potential client isn't happy to pay a deposit or make staged payments I'd walk away and let the next guy take the hit.

Thankfully its been some time since I needed a debt collection agency, check out the phone book for a few names. Other posters may have some names to offer. They usually work on a " no foal no fee " basis so getting them on the case shouldn't cost anything.

Do let us know how you get on.
Best of luck.

Andyjb

The Apprentice · 28-12-2011 9:49am

wobbles wrote: »

I would also remove 'due to non payment' but i would replace it with 'due to financial issues'. You need to try shame them into paying.

Best of luck. Stand your ground, dont let them intimiate you

You can be sued for this, i vaguely remember a case in contract law which had similarities to this, you cannot and wouldnt reccommend burning his bridges like this. If it lead to him earning lost revenue because you made a error in judgement putting up something like this it could cost you your business.

Just send him the 7 day notice and take it down... i wouldnt bother taking him to court it could be lenghty and costly.
:pac:

Also to add he has grounds for breaking the contract if you do not meet him..
Just put it in writing what needs to be say just to clarify again at the proposed meeting and you might get a resolution..

These johnny big ball characters are a dime a dozen, still living in the past eating their way through football fields of grub.. i call them the berties.. Quite frankly the majority of them dont have a leg to stand on because they dont pay their ****ing bills on time and its you and others that get screwed regularly. Its easy swan about like lord goff when you have no bills to pay..

Best of luck

Joe10000 · 28-12-2011 9:55am

Your suspension page would seriously rile me if I was in that position and the last thing I would do is pay whoever put it there.

EIREHotspur · 28-12-2011 11:14am

Joe10000 wrote: »

Your suspension page would seriously rile me if I was in that position and the last thing I would do is pay whoever put it there.

Well I agree with other people to omit why it was taken down if it would get you in trouble but after two years I would probably have done the same thing.
People who were riled because of what he put up could be riled all they want because I wouldn't deal with anyone who strung me along for 2 months.....never mind two years.

dahamsta · 28-12-2011 11:41am

After 2 years you're just wasting your own time and money, and looking for trouble with the financial suspension message. Remove the financial note, send a letter explaining that if they pay up you'll restore it, and write it off as a bad debt if they don't.

And don't register a customers domain in your own name again, it's bad policy and could be considered IP theft. Get the money up front and put it in their name, or tell them to register elsewhere.

fl4pj4ck · 28-12-2011 4:48pm

dahamsta wrote: »

And don't register a customers domain in your own name again, it's bad policy and could be considered IP theft. Get the money up front and put it in their name, or tell them to register elsewhere.

Although I do agree with second part of your answer, the first part is mostly not true. everyone can register any domain name (talking about TLDs of course, not IEs) and unless you take it to ICANN (see here) and allow 2-3 years for the whole process to be finished, there's little you can do, and after those 2-3 years ICANN can still grant you the right to use the domain name. Ant there's nothing about domain names in IP theft.

dahamsta · 28-12-2011 6:13pm

I don't understand your response because you refer to two first parts, however in general if you register a customers brand, particularly if it's a registered trademark, you could be sued for IP theft. Could, it's not a given; but either way, it's bad policy and it's a pain in the hole for professional registrars like me. The UDRP has no relevance to my statement, that's an enforcement tool.

jmcc · 28-12-2011 6:19pm

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

Although I do agree with first part of your answer, the first part is mostly not true.

You are wrong. It could, if the situation goes bad, be used to show that the registration was a bad faith registration and that the registrant had no rights to the domain. And there is the question of "passing off" that may arise. There are all sorts of legal issues (contract law, IP law etc) that can arise when a web developer registers a domain in their own name rather than that of the client. The worst issue, for the web developer, is that the client could use it as a reason not to pay.

Regards...jmcc

fl4pj4ck · 28-12-2011 6:32pm

@dahamsta: fixed
@jmcc: don't want to argue here, but you can only dispute this with ICANN, as Ireland (nor any other country) has no right to decide about the TLD domain names. ICANN is independent and doesn't give a damn about country internal regulations nor court cases.

tricky D · 28-12-2011 6:43pm

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

@jmcc: don't want to argue here, but you can only dispute this with ICANN, as Ireland (nor any other country) has no right to decide about the TLD domain names. ICANN is independent and doesn't give a damn about country internal regulations nor court cases.

Wrong, just simply wrong.

jmcc · 28-12-2011 6:47pm

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

@jmcc: don't want to argue here, but you can only dispute this with ICANN,

There's nothing to stop the client taking the web developer to court in Ireland. That's what you seem to be missing. If the developer and the client are in the same jurisdiction, it is easier.

as Ireland (nor any other country) has no right to decide about the TLD domain names.

You seem to be looking at this as simply a domain name problem. It is not. There are other potential options in Irish law that do not involve a UDRP action.

ICANN is independent and doesn't give a damn about country internal regulations nor court cases.

ICANN doesn't actually decide the UDRP actions. One of the main providers (ICANNspeak for organisations deciding the disputes) for TLD disputes is, not surprisingly, the World Intellectual Property Organisation (http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/rules/ ).

Regards...jmcc

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 28-12-2011 6:56pm

Since the previous users never actually had owned, there is absolutely no common law claim as passing off as long as the OP doesn't expressly imply that he is them. Domains change hands all the time like this.

jmcc · 28-12-2011 7:19pm

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

Since the previous users never actually had owned, there is absolutely no common law claim as passing off as long as the OP doesn't expressly imply that he is them.

Give the WHOIS record (where the web developer has effectively registered the client's domain name (and possibly business name/trademark) in their own name rather than that of the client) to a good lawyer and see how it goes.

Regards...jmcc

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 28-12-2011 7:34pm

You're making so many assumptions there...

jmcc · 28-12-2011 7:52pm

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

You're making so many assumptions there...

There are many sites that now cache WHOIS lookups so there is a chance that someone searching for the client's business in a search engine may see the WHOIS data in the results - the webdev's registration data with the client's business name. There doesn't have to be a holding page associated with the domain. (Most holding pages are deemphasised or filtered by search engines so the cached WHOIS record is more likely to appear higher in the results.) Most people have a very shallow knowledge of domain name issues and the way that seemingly innocent information can be used to build a case.

Regards...jmcc

fl4pj4ck · 28-12-2011 7:57pm

the domain is not, and never was registered with the company's details. moreover, it's registered in Bahamas with WHOIS Privacy option enabled. good luck finding anyone who would like to deal with such case. oh, and please stay on topic

bobbytables · 28-12-2011 8:24pm

After some time I started enquiring about the payment, didn't push too hard, but was told that anytime I will need the money I just need to ask. Didn't need the money back then, but as you all know times has changed.

I was shocked when I read this because your attitude is way wrong. You did work, unless it wasn't for money (which it obviously was), then you should never have made it so easy for them not to pay you right from the very start. You took away the incentive for you to get paid, by showing them you were willing to put their needs before yours, when it should have been equal. You have to take ownership for the fact that you haven't been paid. I know you have sent emails and communicated your intent to pursue your fee, but that's not enough. To me it seems, you have let them take this pi$$ for 2 years, during that time you have got more and more annoyed, but took insufficient action. Then at the last minute you drop a nuke, because you couldn't take it anymore. Not that I disagree with you, but as a person that has had many "filthy rich" types owe me money, and try to leave it at that, you have to understand, unless there is an incentive for them to pay you then it's not going to happen. Especially when you "don't push too hard". You're acting like they care. People like this don't care and would happily let you starve as long as the public knows nothing of it.

You have to accept when you're self employed that every project requires time/effort to pursue payment. Sometimes you will have to become a problem for non-payers, but remember, you didn't want it to be that way, and raise that flag high while you aggressively go in for for what's yours. If you can get them to accidentally and publicly make an ass of themselves while you're at it, then all the better. You may save someone after you from being fecked over too, because public perception means more to these feckers than any fee you're after I assure you. Also this process is much easier if you made provisions with a written formal agreement up front. It's not a lost cause if you didn't, it's just not as straight forward. For starters, any code you write, unless you formally sign away the copyright (even if you got paid), they don't own it. Now it's common practice for you to do so upon receipt of payment, but not before. But again an agreement can be anything between two parties. So anyway, you own the site, they don't!, and you are letting them profit from it, while you have spent your time a) doing the job, b) having no choice but to pursue them excessively.

The domain name can be a tricky one and relies on a few factors. Also if you receive any money and it's not specified what that partial payment covers, then your life will get much more difficult. So if 100% of the work is done, DO NOT accept anything less than 100% of the payment, EVER!, especially if it's small money (which this is).

Too many Irish people make the assumption that people are rich because they are clever and have some genius business operation in place. It's an illusion, albeit in varied amounts, as there are good businesses out there that work very hard for their customers and do pay their bills/taxes/etc. Many of them are brilliant and honest, but there are way too many that operate differently. All of the clowns that delayed paying me were successful in business because they were used to bullying/manipulating others in to submission and taking advantage of ANY weakness they could find. That ability alone is the reason they can maintain such a healthy cash flow.

Corporate hierarchies are too often used as a tool to avoid payment. "Oh I've forwarded that on to the MD", "Jesus, did that lad not get back to you....*snigger*", "I've just been told the cheque is in the post", "Listen it's beyond my control, the MD is insisting that you to do this [extra thing] first and we'll have the money to you before the close of business". Yet the person who is in control in the moment will be the last person you'll get to talk to. The opposite is true when they need something from you.

They'll do their best to make you feel guilty for even asking to be paid, like you've burst in the door and just beaten the receptionist to death with their own shoes. Always remember, if they do owe you money, and they sound convincing, it's just because they've successfully fecked over many before you. Don't be another statistic.
Sure I have emails from people that told me I had made such a positive impact to their business and that they "couldn't be happier" upon completing a project, then a month later tell me I'll never work for them or anyone they know again, just because I managed to surgically extract my fee, all according to the terms they signed at the start. Just because they're annoyed, doesn't mean they're right. They're just annoyed because you've caught them out and they've nowhere to go.

This is what you're up against sometimes, unfortunately.

As for people who sort of know you in a personal context, and want to engage in business, this is a good filter right at the very start of the first meeting:

"Thank you for wanting to do business with me, so what we'll do is this, I won't offend you by pulling the wool over your eyes & doing a half assed job, if you don't offend me by expecting me to work for less than I normally would".

The good ones will laugh and get on with it, but the others will take immediate offense. This is great, because they've just shown you that they are insincere friends to start with, but at least you found that out without making a significant investment in time and effort to get to that inevitable truth. A genuine friend would not want you to starve, but at the same time they shouldn't feel obliged to hire you on the grounds of friendship. Business is business, it's not personal.

Stop being fooled and get your money!. Get legal advice and don't make this mistake again.

dahamsta · 29-12-2011 1:25am

jmcc was sidelined a bit with the IP discussion. He's right that passing off is a factor, however it wouldn't come into play unless the OP did something with it, for example redirecting it to their own site. It's neither here nor there though, passing off is only one UDRP factor, the primary one in this case would be bad faith -- setting yourself as the admin-c on a domain is textbook bad faith, an open-and-shut decision with the domain either transferred to the client (possibly with a requirement to pay a reasonable fee) or deleted.

WHOIS privacy has no bearing, the client knows who the "registrant" is, and could file a UDRP complaint even if they didn't, as contact is handled by the arbitrator (possibly via the registrar, not sure of the fine detail here). Moreover, the use of WHOIS Privacy could be considered a secondary example of bad faith, and the posts here tertiary if they were spotted by the client. The UDRP is expensive but significantly cheaper than litigation in most cases. (WIPO is just one arbitrator, probably the most expensive; there are cheaper options.)

Don't get me (or jmcc I reckon) wrong, I have zero respect for clients that don't pay their bills, but I also have little respect for designers, developers, hosters, etc, that set themselves as owner and/or admin-c. It's not correct, it could be considered theft, and it make things very difficult for people that deal in domains on a day to day basis. You registered the domain for your client, it's their property, not yours; that you didn't collect payment for it is a separate issue. If you were a conveyancing solicitor and did the same thing with a house, you'd be struck off.

I should add that jmcc is an expert in his field, to a far greater degree than me despite my decade+ of experience in the trade. Click the links in his sig if you need evidence. He's not just trying to wind you up or piss you off, he's trying to help you, just like I am. So again, please, if you're registering domains for clients, use their details for the registration.

adam

bobbytables · 29-12-2011 3:12pm

I agree that hijacking hosting/domains is poor form, however only when it's hijacking. A lot of freelancers do jobs for people without a formal agreement in place, which means it's solely at the discretion of the legal system to identify the victim in a dispute. Also there is this notion of "common practice" that is employed as a tactic by crooked business people, if they believe you are not confident in your rights. For months when I started out I offered serious credit to an early client because they told me it was common practice, I knew no better and I bowed to their years of experience in business and glossy facade.

Then having gained legal advice I discovered that I could formulate an agreement and terms for each and every project I took on. The terms could be anything. They could dictate that my client does not own a single thing (not domains, hosting, sites, etc) until the agreed fee has been received in full by dates specified. Then any possible changes to that agreement would be included "without prejudice" to the original agreement if needs be.

You can draft an agreement in a principal, followed by the formal agreement, which states the terms, which can be anything you like. The client doesn't have to agree to it, but if they do & they default, then you have a much better chance of being successful in your pursuit.

Also this sh1t about fear of being sued. Just because someone says they will sue you doesn't mean they will be successful in court. The worst thing you can get from a solicitors letter is a paper cut. The law is not black and white and it's up to the court to decide on the day who is in the wrong. Just make sure you have your facts right, and dont leave anything to chance. I had a guy threaten to end me, and after his own solicitors told him to STFU, he did so very quickly. If I had never received legal advice I would probably have lost a lot more money because I would have assumed that "the done thing" is to bow to the customer, always.

Bottom line: attempt to reach an agreement, if successful, stick to it, do the job, get paid. Every hour spent fecking about is an hour you are giving them for free. A client will have expectations for you, but you should also have for your client. Make them apparent in the agreement. A client that won't agree to your terms is better off going elsewhere in the long run, because at the end of the day if ur not going to be earning money from them while you kill yourself in front of a computer, you might as well stop working.

how long is too long

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