[TOR] Somebody please tell me bioware know what they are doin

DeVore

Dustaz wrote: »

Thats not a penalty. Thats just losing, You can respawn instantly and try again. If chess was like eq, as i said, your next game would start with 3 less pieces.

No it wouldnt. That analogy is idiotic. You "respawn" with exactly the same tools you had before and can try again. You dont get a "by" just because you might throw a tantrum and leave the game.


DeV.

Dustaz

nesf wrote: »

Which is pretty much exactly what we've been arguing.

It sort of is, not exactly though.

The games might allow weaker players to play them, but they create as many 'skilled' gamers as they always did. It just allows weaker players to have fun. Starcraft being a case in point.

Anything which begins niche will have more hardcore followers. Once it becomes more mainstream, the pool is obviously diluted by numbers. I won't argue that. But i will argue that somehow the games make people worse at gaming.

Actually heres a discussion point.

Devore made a point that in SWTOR, he lets his pet die for the fun. Well in SWTOR i let my pet die all the time. Since theres no penalty for it, its far quicker to let it die at the end of a fight and dismiss/summon than heal it up. That might be shockingly unskilled, but its also far more efficient in this case than the 'correct' way to do it (actually its more efficient to let it get to low hp and then mount up/demount, but this example seems more harsh). If there was a penalty, then I would do it a different way, but there isnt so it allows for invention. In a more 'hardcore' game, you'd have to keep that sucker alive or suffer the consequences of a second mortgage. In this game, you can still do that. Or you can work out oa way of doing it that saves half the time.

Dustaz

nesf wrote: »

Your rating will get murdered though if your opponent was far lower in rating than you. You cannot afford to be making mistakes in competitive chess at all. To an extent mirroring hardcore progression raiding where you only get one chance at each boss per lockout period.

Well no, it mirrors ANY game where you play against someone else. If you make too many mistakes you lose. If you dont make a mistake and someone else plays better than you, you lose. Simple as that. The ease of play of the game has absolutely zero bearing on that. Which is why i think talking about being 'better' or 'weaker' in a single player game is a fallacy since there is no means of competition. Once you introduce a means of competition, be it multiplayer or comparison of scores, then the better players become self evident.

DeVore wrote: »

No it wouldnt. That analogy is idiotic. You "respawn" with exactly the same tools you had before and can try again. You dont get a "by" just because you might throw a tantrum and leave the game.


DeV.

You didnt answer the question. Whats the harsh penalty that exists when you lose a game of chess against your friend (assuming we arent talking about the "top tranche" of people here)?

Shiminay

I think the chess analogy falls down because we're not comparing Like with Like. Competitive chess, you lose your ranking points if you're beaten by a lower ranked player - that makes it comparable to the EQ style of punishing you for dying, but SWTOR's is more like a game of chess with your buddy - you're playing for fun and there are no penalties for losing to them save maybe bragging rights

nesf

Dustaz wrote: »

It sort of is, not exactly though.

The games might allow weaker players to play them, but they create as many 'skilled' gamers as they always did. It just allows weaker players to have fun. Starcraft being a case in point.

Anything which begins niche will have more hardcore followers. Once it becomes more mainstream, the pool is obviously diluted by numbers. I won't argue that. But i will argue that somehow the games make people worse at gaming.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. We're saying that easy games dilute the overall average skill level, we're not saying a word about the subset of skilled players.

nesf

Dustaz wrote: »

Well no, it mirrors ANY game where you play against someone else. If you make too many mistakes you lose. If you dont make a mistake and someone else plays better than you, you lose. Simple as that. The ease of play of the game has absolutely zero bearing on that. Which is why i think talking about being 'better' or 'weaker' in a single player game is a fallacy since there is no means of competition. Once you introduce a means of competition, be it multiplayer or comparison of scores, then the better players become self evident.

You miss my point. The punishment/reward set up for competitive chess is brutal. I mean, really brutal. You lose *a lot* by one mistake but only gain a tiny edge by making a correct decision. It can be nearly impossible to recover from a mistake against a good opponent. Similar to hardcore raiding. It's rather different to casual chess which is closer to what you're talking about.


I'm not sure what you're talking about wrt to single player games since you're pretty much repeating what I said back to me about competition through comparison rather than direct competition.

Dustaz

just to derail this conversation and go back to the original topic.

I can safely say that bioware have precisely zero idea what they are doing.

Cross posted from another thread:


Im in the middle of my guilds first raid at the moment and

OH

MY

GOD


Have these people EVER raided before? I can live without all the 'ease of life' mods i got used to like ready checks and boss mods etc etc. But christ, THEY DONT HAVE A WORKING LOOT SYSTEM.

When you kill a boss, the game automatically assigns loot to those that can use it. It does hidden rolls if theres more than one person availble to the item. There is NO working master looter, NO working FFA loot. Even if there was, there is no /random command in the game so you cant roll for stuff between yourselves.

We've killed 3 bosses so far and every time, the game assigned loot to someone with an epic in that slot already, while there was at least 2 others with blues in that slot.


Oh, and we've been told flat out that there is no item refunds/swaps.

Oh, and if your a tank, your going to have fun with no target of target frame.

Oh, remember that companion that you sent out on the 1 hour mission 59 minutes ago? Have fun with the GIANT window that pops up over your unit frames just as the tank is taking lots of damage.


I seriously dont think these guys have ever been in a raid before.

Blowfish

Actually, it's the opposite.

Normal mode raids are designed for pugs. To stop the inevitable ninja looting that would occur in pugs, Bioware deliberately have it set to auto assign loot.

Hard and Nightmare modes are the 'proper' raiding difficulties, which have master loot etc. If your guildies had bothered actually looking any of this stuff up, they would have known this already.

Lone Stone

Dustaz wrote: »

just to derail this conversation and go back to the original topic.

I can safely say that bioware have precisely zero idea what they are doing.

Cross posted from another thread:


Im in the middle of my guilds first raid at the moment and

OH

MY

GOD


Have these people EVER raided before? I can live without all the 'ease of life' mods i got used to like ready checks and boss mods etc etc. But christ, THEY DONT HAVE A WORKING LOOT SYSTEM.

When you kill a boss, the game automatically assigns loot to those that can use it. It does hidden rolls if theres more than one person availble to the item. There is NO working master looter, NO working FFA loot. Even if there was, there is no /random command in the game so you cant roll for stuff between yourselves.

We've killed 3 bosses so far and every time, the game assigned loot to someone with an epic in that slot already, while there was at least 2 others with blues in that slot.


Oh, and we've been told flat out that there is no item refunds/swaps.

Oh, and if your a tank, your going to have fun with no target of target frame.

Oh, remember that companion that you sent out on the 1 hour mission 59 minutes ago? Have fun with the GIANT window that pops up over your unit frames just as the tank is taking lots of damage.


I seriously dont think these guys have ever been in a raid before.

From what ive read also that loot doesnt really matter because the commendation's you get from doing those raids buys better gear than the raid loot not 100% sure on that but its what i read.

Dustaz

Blowfish wrote: »

Actually, it's the opposite.

Normal mode raids are designed for pugs. To stop the inevitable ninja looting that would occur in pugs, Bioware deliberately have it set to auto assign loot.

Hard and Nightmare modes are the 'proper' raiding difficulties, which have master loot etc. If your guildies had bothered actually looking any of this stuff up, they would have known this already.

We did look it up, but we didnt believe it. We assumed it was some star wars fanboy pulling it out of his deathstar. We couldnt believe they would implement something as utterly stupid as that. Have 2 methods of pug looting sure, but to not have ANY master loot option? Thats utterly retarded.

Seeing how easy it is i guess we wont have to deal with it for much longer, but i cry for any future alts.

Dustaz

Lone Stone wrote: »

From what ive read also that loot doesnt really matter because the commendation's you get from doing those raids buys better gear than the raid loot not 100% sure on that but its what i read.

Tell that to the guy in our raid with full blue gear whos been passed over for 3 epics so far.

I mean we've only been raiding together for 5 years but i guess the game knows better..

Lone Stone

Dustaz wrote: »

Tell that to the guy in our raid with full blue gear whos been passed over for 3 epics so far.

I mean we've only been raiding together for 5 years but i guess the game knows better..

eh right...

Calhoun

Dustaz wrote: »

We did look it up, but we didnt believe it. We assumed it was some star wars fanboy pulling it out of his deathstar. We couldnt believe they would implement something as utterly stupid as that. Have 2 methods of pug looting sure, but to not have ANY master loot option? Thats utterly retarded.

Seeing how easy it is i guess we wont have to deal with it for much longer, but i cry for any future alts.

From what I can tell from reading online, normal = looking for raid, hard =wow normal, and nightmare = wow heroic so could explain the loot bag approach. Pandering to the masses and feeding the cabbages what you think of it outside of the loot issue ?

TheDoc

Blowfish wrote: »

Actually, it's the opposite.

Normal mode raids are designed for pugs. To stop the inevitable ninja looting that would occur in pugs, Bioware deliberately have it set to auto assign loot.

Hard and Nightmare modes are the 'proper' raiding difficulties, which have master loot etc. If your guildies had bothered actually looking any of this stuff up, they would have known this already.

That is a confusing comment.

Any one with half a clue of raiding would understand the need for a master loot option or a need/greed.

While it might be a nice way to avoid gear being ninja'd, its utteraly retarded not to put the option in for a guild group or when a vote is passed or something.

Normal mode is going to be the gating progression for EVERY guild. Its the natural course, to gain some better gear. The option should be there for a raid leader to assign gear to players who need it.

Going by last night a good bit of gear was utterly wasted.

By Biowares and your sentinments , progression could take a couple of weeks more then it should due to the stupid assignment of loot.

The fights look rather straight forward and at points will be gear checks no doubt, so being able to actually HAVE gear is critical. Having the same level of item "assigned" to a guy who doesnt need it is pure waste.

Another teething issue I'm, sure will get sorted ( if not forget this game) but its just another example in a long growing list of absolute school boy errors...

Venom

TheDoc wrote: »

That is a confusing comment.

Any one with half a clue of raiding would understand the need for a master loot option or a need/greed.

While it might be a nice way to avoid gear being ninja'd, its utteraly retarded not to put the option in for a guild group or when a vote is passed or something.

Normal mode is going to be the gating progression for EVERY guild. Its the natural course, to gain some better gear. The option should be there for a raid leader to assign gear to players who need it.

Going by last night a good bit of gear was utterly wasted.

By Biowares and your sentinments , progression could take a couple of weeks more then it should due to the stupid assignment of loot.

The fights look rather straight forward and at points will be gear checks no doubt, so being able to actually HAVE gear is critical. Having the same level of item "assigned" to a guy who doesnt need it is pure waste.

Another teething issue I'm, sure will get sorted ( if not forget this game) but its just another example in a long growing list of absolute school boy errors...

Its a complete joke such basic systems as Need/Greed looting which are already in the game for flashpoints can not be used during Operations considering the loot of of much higher quality. Sadly this is just one of the many insane design issues that are starting to prove SWTOR was rushed out the door before it was ready.

Whats worse and has me very concerned is that info is starting to hit the web claiming a good portion of the design team are ex SOE employees which leaves me with zero faith in SWTOR having these issues resolved and turning into the AAA title is should be. For all the stick the blogger and ex EA employee EA Louse got at the time, all the predictions he/she made look like they were 100% correct

Holyhole

there is a lot of negativity in the last 2 posts..

seriously guys, what are you expecting?

its an MMO, its not going to be perfect.. ever..

its very good right now all things considered, and im sure they will make improvements and corrections.

you guys seem very eager to write it off tbh..

how long do you think you will be doing normals and this will be an issue anyways? I mean, its not that i disagree that the option should be there, and loot distribution should be selectable, but i can understand why they wouldn't add that functionality for normal modes, and tbh its really not that much of a big deal anyways..

and as for it being rushed out the door.. i loled at that comment.. STO.. now that was rushed out the door!

Kirby

The loot system they have is excellent for stopping ninja's. It just is. However there should be a "pass" button for circumstances like you have described where the item is an incremenetal upgrade for one lad, and a Giant upgrade for another.

They could improve the system by adding that. But overall the game deals with loot in an excellent manner in my eyes.

Venom

Holyhole wrote: »

there is a lot of negativity in the last 2 posts..

seriously guys, what are you expecting?

its an MMO, its not going to be perfect.. ever..

its very good right now all things considered, and im sure they will make improvements and corrections.

you guys seem very eager to write it off tbh..

how long do you think you will be doing normals and this will be an issue anyways? I mean, its not that i disagree that the option should be there, and loot distribution should be selectable, but i can understand why they wouldn't add that functionality for normal modes, and tbh its really not that much of a big deal anyways..

and as for it being rushed out the door.. i loled at that comment.. STO.. now that was rushed out the door!

SWTOR having no high res settings for graphics, which is a first for any MMO ever, not show the game was kinda rushed?

Or maybe the rather basic LFG tools, group loot options, auction house, the lack of an option to pick which PvP arena you wish to enter, the serious lack of armor and item design with only a few re-colored options for most classes, very poorly designed fast travel option and very dull and bugged endgame content not to mention all the game breaking bugs players have encountered the prevent them completing class story missions.

Naa, you're right, game wasn't rushed to release at all :rolleyes:

Holyhole

Venom wrote: »

SWTOR having no high res settings for graphics, which is a first for any MMO ever, not show the game was kinda rushed?

Or maybe the rather basic LFG tools, group loot options, auction house, the lack of an option to pick which PvP arena you wish to enter, the serious lack of armor and item design with only a few re-colored options for most classes, very poorly designed fast travel option and very dull and bugged endgame content not to mention all the game breaking bugs players have encountered the prevent them completing class story missions.

Naa, you're right, game wasn't rushed to release at all :rolleyes:

no i dont think it was rushed out tbh
High Res settings? i must be missing something there so ill bow to ur knowledge on that one. Seems fine to me tho.. and i have heard a lot of good things from others about the graphix.
Basic LFG tools.. yep, true, lots of people prelaunch where whining that all the LFG tools in WoW were taking the social aspect from the game, and they wanted it simple.
Group loot options - are all there, you are just limited on easy raids to protect puggers from ninja's. I agree that full guild groups should have the option, but i can get with it.. its only easy mode faceroll stuff anyways.
AH - is a bit cranky, but perfectly reasonable for starters. would be good if they were all linked up, but im sure it'll come.
Armor Design - there could be more, but its not like there is only 1 or 2 designs here.. there are quite a few..
V.Poorly designed fast travel - not sure what you are talking about here, you mean the taxi spots? im not sure how you want that to be better tbh, actually quite interested..
Bugs.. actually on this one i can agree.. i think they kinda hard tested a build then went live with a fresher build that was riddled with bugs.. I expect that was due to the beta weekends for like a million people, and being caught out on a lot of things they didnt expect... but the down times and lot of the bugs are very comparable if better than any MMO launch i've experinced. Even the queue problem only lasted a week or 2..

So i mean, i understand what you are saying, and im not neccesarily disagreeing that the points you have highlighted are less than perfect and couldnt be improved, but it seems to me you are being highly critical over things that are clearly weeker, and ignoring the parts that are keeping you hooked.. i mean you obviously have a 50 and have been playing end game already, so you must be quite serious about it. you certainly know ur stuff m8. but I know a couple people that played it for a day or 2 and went.. yer.. just not feeling it.. not for anything specific.. just wasnt filcking their switch and they stopped..

what do you enjoy about it? why have you played it to 50?

Venom

Holyhole wrote: »

no i dont think it was rushed out tbh
High Res settings? i must be missing something there so ill bow to ur knowledge on that one. Seems fine to me tho.. and i have heard a lot of good things from others about the graphix.
Basic LFG tools.. yep, true, lots of people prelaunch where whining that all the LFG tools in WoW were taking the social aspect from the game, and they wanted it simple.
Group loot options - are all there, you are just limited on easy raids to protect puggers from ninja's. I agree that full guild groups should have the option, but i can get with it.. its only easy mode faceroll stuff anyways.
AH - is a bit cranky, but perfectly reasonable for starters. would be good if they were all linked up, but im sure it'll come.
Armor Design - there could be more, but its not like there is only 1 or 2 designs here.. there are quite a few..
V.Poorly designed fast travel - not sure what you are talking about here, you mean the taxi spots? im not sure how you want that to be better tbh, actually quite interested..
Bugs.. actually on this one i can agree.. i think they kinda hard tested a build then went live with a fresher build that was riddled with bugs.. I expect that was due to the beta weekends for like a million people, and being caught out on a lot of things they didnt expect... but the down times and lot of the bugs are very comparable if better than any MMO launch i've experinced. Even the queue problem only lasted a week or 2..

So i mean, i understand what you are saying, and im not neccesarily disagreeing that the points you have highlighted are less than perfect and couldnt be improved, but it seems to me you are being highly critical over things that are clearly weeker, and ignoring the parts that are keeping you hooked.. i mean you obviously have a 50 and have been playing end game already, so you must be quite serious about it. you certainly know ur stuff m8. but I know a couple people that played it for a day or 2 and went.. yer.. just not feeling it.. not for anything specific.. just wasnt filcking their switch and they stopped..

what do you enjoy about it? why have you played it to 50?

The issue I have with the graphics is they are only the medium setting renamed to high setting in options. Bioware have admitted the Hero engine is having major problems with players using the real high res setting so they took it out of the game but claimed in beta it was due to a UI bug and maintained this lie up until yesterday.

Go to your ship, stand close to the holoemitter and click on it and for 1.5 seconds your character will be in fully high res textures the same used in cutscenes with NPCs. Sadly for all other parts of the game SWTOR defaults to medium res setting so player characters look blury and low res.

The group loot options for not hard mode raids might prevent ninja looting but will screw over players due to the game randomly issuing the loot drops. Every other MMO might have an issue with nija looters but they only get to try it once before getting kicked from the group and Id rather risk a pug ninja tbh than the current system.

The issue I have with travel is the insane about of instances a players needs to go through when travelling between planets. Running through the spaceport to lift, lift to hangar, ship to map console, travel to new planet, map console to ship, ship to hangar lift, lift to spaceport and long ass spaceport to finally get onto the planet.

Whats even worse is later in the game there is a spacestation in between the player ship which adds another instance

Armor design iv seen only about 4 different sets for both SW and BH with lots of variations on colors. Sadly there are not many matching armor sets overall and looking like Im wearing a clownsuit is a pet peeve of mine in MMOs and the addition of an appearance tab would of solved this issue but Bioware point Blank refused to add it despite an outcry on the official forums.

The class story is pretty good to be honest but once you get to 50 there are only repeatable daily missions to do and that get boring fast. Running an alt is cool from the class story point of view but you do have to go through the same planets in the same order every single time and while the VO makes the missions seem less kill 10 rats and bring me there tails type crap other MMOs suffer from, once you have done the missions a few times it does get boring.

Lone Stone

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-23-if-trailers-told-the-truth-article

watch the second video, its so true