Irish Indo supporting animal cruelty

Discodog

later10 wrote: »

Can you explain how exactly these two statements are contradictory?

Straying onto a farmstead, where chickens are kept, is usually not low risk. A fox will much prefer take off wild game or rabbits or rats than a chicken in a farmyard where there may be dogs or people around; I don't even see where you're disagreeing, since you refer yourself to 'low risk' meals.

You're losing sight of the argument at this stage, digging a trench, and disagreeing for the sake of wanting to be seen to be right. Even though to most rational people, the above statements are perfectly compatible.

OK basic animal behaviour lesson 1. Risk to a Fox has nothing to do with the presence of humans. It is about the risk of injury which is why Foxes don't take cats & the risk of expending too much energy on a pointless chase.

A chicken in a garden is the perfect low risk meal as is the waste in a dustbin. Foxes do not have the intellect to fill out their risk assessment forms & decide whether the householder has a gun !

It would actually suit my pro fox argument to suggest that Foxes will take wild food rather than livestock but I am honest enough to admit the truth.

Discodog

joela wrote: »

So your particular specialism is?

Why so disdainful of IWT, they do a lot of positive work to encourage an interest in natural history in Ireland with very little funding and support.

Not being would up by people like you

And I know the IWT - they are friends

I may soon be taking on wildlife rescue on their behalf.

RichieC

later10 wrote: »

The King of Moo wrote: »

You legally oblige them to look after the animal they've bred or have it looked after if they can't have it used for hunting.

Don't be absurd: you think you can legally oblige a horse producer to keep his 15 or maybe 30 hunting stock, and bankrupt himself and live out the rest of his days feeding oats to his stock as long as they live?

You expect that suggestion to be taken seriously?

I really don't see what's wrong with shooting.

No, you don't.

And I don't see how more clearly it can be explained.

are you suggesting there's profit in fox hunting?

johngalway

Discodog wrote: »

which is why Foxes don't take cats

They will eat cat though. I submitted some shot foxes to an NUIG study, check out my profile for the stomach content results, one contained domestic cat. Whether the cat was dead or alive when it met the fox is anyones guess mind.

Discodog

johngalway wrote: »

They will eat cat though. I submitted some shot foxes to an NUIG study, check out my profile for the stomach content results, one contained domestic cat. Whether the cat was dead or alive when it met the fox is anyones guess mind.

I don't know the results of the NUIG study but I have never heard of Cat being on the menu. But I can easily see a situation where a fox is feeding on roadkill - as you know there are a lot of dead cats on our roads.

Cats are rarely predated by bigger carnivores than foxes. There is plenty of footage of bears, bigger cats, etc backing away from a cat. As a predator you would have to be pretty certain of getting it right first time to avoid claws in your eyes. Even a basic moggy can be a handful - ask any vet !

My Vixen seems to prefer beachcombing !

later12

Discodog wrote: »

Risk to a Fox has nothing to do with the presence of humans. It is about the risk of injury which is why Foxes don't take cats..

Foxes fear humans and dogs, which is why they generally stay out of farmyards where chickens or farm food sources might be an otherwise easy source of food.

This is why they are opportunity hunters, taking as much with them as they can when they do encroach onto a farmstead. I really have no idea why you are disagreeing,apparently for the sake of disagreeing here.

If rural foxes had an endless supply of pheasants, rabbits and rats, they would show little interest in being around human dwellings.

later12

RichieC wrote: »

are you suggesting there's profit in fox hunting?

For whom?

For owners of hirelings, or the producers of hunters, as mentioned in that post; yes.

johngalway

Discodog wrote: »

I don't know the results of the NUIG study but I have never heard of Cat being on the menu. But I can easily see a situation where a fox is feeding on roadkill - as you know there are a lot of dead cats on our roads.

Cats are rarely predated by bigger carnivores than foxes. There is plenty of footage of bears, bigger cats, etc backing away from a cat. As a predator you would have to be pretty certain of getting it right first time to avoid claws in your eyes. Even a basic moggy can be a handful - ask any vet !

My Vixen seems to prefer beachcombing !

The shore is a good place to find foxes alright. A lot of my Dads land is by the sea, and the quickest and easiest way to find out if a fox is about is look for fresh scats above high water line.

No one will know whether the cat was dead or alive, but it was in the foxes stomach. Mind you they'll eat anything, I've seen them eat road kill badger more than once.

Visit my profile, one of the guys conducting the study is/was a member here, a PM may get him, depending on if he's still got email alerts turned on I suppose.

joela

Discodog wrote: »

Not being would up by people like you

And I know the IWT - they are friends

I may soon be taking on wildlife rescue on their behalf.

I'm not winding you up, I am asking a straight forward questions. What journals was your ecological research in and what was your specialism? Did you work in academia or in field ecology? Simple and reveal nothing more of you than is already available through this thread alone.

If you know the IWT and they are friends then why the dismissive comment and why did you not seem to know about their support of wolf reintroduction

I can't understand why you refuse to answer straight questions and am interested as to why you don't list yourself as an ecologist anymore but as a designer? Interest is all, curious and also keen to establish the validity of your claims to have worked as an ecologist.

Discodog

later10 wrote: »

Foxes fear humans and dogs, which is why they generally stay out of farmyards where chickens or farm food sources might be an otherwise easy source of food.

Well my Vixen was so scared of my three dogs & me that she was happy to troup her cubs past my patio doors on several occasions - with the dogs barking inches away !

How can you possibly justify your argument when urban Fox populations are so high ? Apart from the traffic your average Fox probably has a far lower risk life stealing from town bins. If Foxes avoided livestock there wouldn't be any fox hunting as few farmers would claim to need the hunt.

joela

Discodog wrote: »

Well my Vixen was so scared of my three dogs & me that she was happy to troup her cubs past my patio doors on several occasions - with the dogs barking inches away !

How can you possibly justify your argument when urban Fox populations are so high ? Apart from the traffic your average Fox probably has a far lower risk life stealing from town bins. If Foxes avoided livestock there wouldn't be any fox hunting as few farmers would claim to need the hunt.

Habituation in this case perhaps as often happens with regular wild bird visitors to gardens?

Discodog

joela wrote: »

Interest is all, curious and also keen to establish the validity of your claims to have worked as an ecologist.

This is Boards & you are free to think anything you want. I don't give a flying fart whether you believe me or not.

If the IWT were to seriously back a Wolf reintroduction, rather than just discuss the implications, it would seriously damage their credibility. But I would try to support any group that encourages wildlife welfare & to their credit their animal treatment section is excellent.

later12

Discodog wrote: »

Well my Vixen was so scared of my three dogs & me that she was happy to troup her cubs past my patio doors on several occasions - with the dogs barking inches away !

Discodog, tell me, what's your point here?

That dogs are not afraid of humans?

What is it?

Is it argument for argument's sake?

How can you possibly justify your argument when urban Fox populations are so high ?

Urban foxes will behave differently to rural foxes; that's why I mentioned rural foxes specifically.

Urban foxes are as territorial as rural foxes, they can't just decide to pack in the city life and head for the glens of Antrim. But they do still display the same aversion to humans as rural foxes in that they will avoid human contact and keep their activities confined largely to the hours when humans are inside and off the street.

joela

Aaah see if you asked me I would openly answer as I have nothing to hide and have credentials to back up my claims. It seems to me that it is highly unlikely you have any ecological training either in academia or in the field.

Check out IWT Facebook page for a heated discussion on wolf reintroduction, it appears they support it as a method of controlling the deer population....

Discodog

joela wrote: »

Aaah see if you asked me I would openly answer as I have nothing to hide and have credentials to back up my claims. It seems to me that it is highly unlikely you have any ecological training either in academia or in the field.

Anyone can invent an identity - this is an anonymous internet boards :rolleyes:

In almost 5000 posts I am pretty sure that you are the first person to accuse me of lying but feel free to continue. It is a principle here that you criticise the post & not the poster.

Discodog

later10 wrote: »

Urban foxes will behave differently to rural foxes; that's why I mentioned rural foxes specifically.

Urban foxes are as territorial as rural foxes,

The line between urban & rural is getting closer every day.
Urban Foxes are virtually non territorial so much so that they will tolerate very close contact. Have you ever been around Foxes in a City ?. They don't just forage at night.

joela

Discodog wrote: »

Anyone can invent an identity - this is an anonymous internet boards :rolleyes:

In almost 5000 posts I am pretty sure that you are the first person to accuse me of lying but feel free to continue. It is a principle here that you criticise the post & not the poster.

I am not criticising anything or accusing you of lying, I am querying a claim you made in a post which you refuse to validate in any way. 5000 posts means nothing if you can't support a claim, it would be very simple to support your claim. Anyway up to you if don't want to prove that you have some scientific basis to your claims.

Discodog

You may not of noticed but the rest of the World have given up on this thread :rolleyes:

doctor evil

Not everyone has given up on this thread.

It has pretty much run its course.

It is a shame DD that you cannot/will not answer the question you have been repeatedly asked.

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

Cats are rarely predated by bigger carnivores than foxes. There is plenty of footage of bears, bigger cats, etc backing away from a cat. As a predator you would have to be pretty certain of getting it right first time to avoid claws in your eyes. Even a basic moggy can be a handful - ask any vet !

You left out cayotes, they will gladly eat a cat.

Foxes are opportunistic but not stupid.

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

Not everyone has given up on this thread.

It has pretty much run its course.

It is a shame DD that you cannot/will not answer the question you have been repeatedly asked.

It would ruin your ability to have a dig

I am really sorry that I am not prepared to reveal my personal information just to please you & Ms Hunt Supporter :P

joela

Discodog wrote: »

It would ruin your ability to have a dig

I am really sorry that I am not prepared to reveal my personal information just to please you & Ms Hunt Supporter :P

Again avoiding a very simple question which does not need to reveal your identity? Why Ms, for all you know I may be Mr, Mrs, Miss? For the last time, as you can't seem to get it, I do not call myself a hunt supporter and do not hunt but I support the right of those who wish to do so. I do not have any difficulty with the activity of chasing and killing the fox at all but as I have repeatedly said I understand your difficulty with it and why it may appear cruel to you. Pay me the same respect please and whether you like it or not accept my viewpoint.

For what it is worth I have no difficulty revealing my ecology training, both in academia and as a field ecologist for many years, and the fact that I am still working in ecology. Even if you didn't have a qualification as a scientist I would have listened to you if you gave fact based information rather than the make it up as you go kind you have given on here.

I have lost interest in this thread from its original theme quite some time ago but your big claims and refusal to substantiate them is why I keep asking.

Discodog

Well we end the debate with you not accepting my background & me not accepting that many of your posts are born from a knowledge of Ecology - whether you are qualified or not.

I don't care & I suggest that you adopt the same principle.

joela

Again I must correct you in your rather twisted interpretation of my scientific background, my posts on ecology stem from your claim that you were a salaried ecologist for 11 years and were therefore the authority on population ecology. My own ecological knowledge has nowt to do with my opinion on fox hunting but it is most certainly valid when I query your assertions regarding fluctuations fox populations.

Finally I do not support my opinion on fox hunting with ecological knowledge, entirely separate things, however I do support my comments on fluctuations in animal populations using my ecological background. As I said before I couldn't care less where anyone gets their ecological expertise from and wouldn't even have queried your claim if you actually could have had an informed discussion with me thereby reassuring me that you knew what you were talking about. I am sure you will now be insistent on trying to the get the last word in again:P:P

Ms. Pingui

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Any proper hunt will not cross land where they are unwelcome. If hounds hunt through, the huntsman will of course try to follow them. Hunts employ people to fence gaps and any field with stock is avoided as much as possible.

Before hunting an area, the hunt sends out "stock cards" to any farmer whose land might be crosses, so that the farmer can choose to move stock to a yard or another field if they so wish.

Riders must obey the field master who ensures that the field rides the headlands,don't gallop through stock and that gates are shut.
People who know nothing of hunts like to paint the riders as ascendancy wannabes who are trying to up their status. In truth, hunts are made up of a wide range of people and a huge proportion of farmers.

Yes I know all this, thats why I was trying to explain How I can't just set up my own organisation and go where I like!