Train stations and liquor licensing... a hugely wasted opportunity

n97 mini

I was watching Oz and James drink to Britain Series 3, think it's Episode 2 or 3, and Oz led them to a train station somewhere not far from Manchester. The bar in the station was CAMRA pub of the year, and the next two stations down the line also had top class beers. Over 30 cask ales between the 3 stations. And a train between them every half hour.

Then I think of Connolly... the bar closes at 8pm. The other handful of the bars on the network are little better.

Under the bye-laws every train station in the Ireland is licensed to serve beer to anyone with a valid train ticket, 365 days a year.

I know IE is not in the entertainments or hospitality business, but what a monumentally wasted opportunity. There are so many stations in great locations up and down the country. The very least they could do is lease out the station bars to people with business brains who will grow the business, providing a return for IE.

Cookie_Monster

many stations don't have the volume of trains to justify a par or cafe. But I think it's a valid point, and with a bit of effort the main stations could easily run a profitable and decent pub/cafe for both passengers and passers alike.

Conversely those with high volume, like DART and other suburban lines perhaps are not ideally suited due to the nature of the travel; morning and evening commuters generally would just want to get home or to work without the hassle (apart from Fridays;))

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

Then I think of Connolly... the bar closes at 8pm. The other handful of the bars on the network are little better.

Under the bye-laws every train station in the Ireland is licensed to serve beer to anyone with a valid train ticket, 365 days a year.

I know IE is not in the entertainments or hospitality business, but what a monumentally wasted opportunity. There are so many stations in great locations up and down the country. The very least they could do is lease out the station bars to people with business brains who will grow the business, providing a return for IE.

I seem to recall IE did just that with Bray Station some years back,however it seems that it was just a tad too eclectic for many and I think had to close somewhat prematurely....;)

n97 mini

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Conversely those with high volume, like DART and other suburban lines perhaps are not ideally suited due to the nature of the travel;

Au contraire, many of those stations are in fantastic (non-residential) locations, and are just begging for a business to be developed around them. What makes it even better is that the train can take them home at the end of the evening, so IE makes on the double.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

I seem to recall IE did just that with Bray Station some years back,

I hadn't heard of that, but by the sounds of it was IE the business developer, or did they lease it out to someone else in the appropriate line of business?

Manach

There might be a business opportunity there. However, the flipside is drunks. If present on a train, and if are the non-amiable types - then CIE are endangering other paying passengers.

n97 mini

Manach wrote: »

There might be a business opportunity there. However, the flipside is drunks. If present on a train, and if are the non-amiable types - then CIE are endangering other paying passengers.

Sure, but a properly run business shouldn't have any trouble. A CAMRA pub of the year isn't a pile it high and sell it cheap type establishment.

mickydoomsux

Considering the Irish attitude to drink, this is a terrible idea. It might work in other countries where people are capable of enjoying a couple of social drinks but here you would need security personnel in every station that has a bar in it because the vast majority of problems we have day to day in the station i work in involve drunkenness, closely followed by people who are on drugs. 100% of assaults on staff/passengers that i have seen/heard of have had drink as a contributing factor.

Getting people drunk in the actual station while they are waiting for their train is an incredibly stupid idea. You are just asking for problems outside of the larger stations with dedicated security personnel.

mikemac1

Oslo in Connolly Station, best carvary in Dublin
And when you become a regular and the chef knows you he brings out free cakes and deserts

The place does a roaring lunchtime trade with the IFSC workers. There is a loyalty scheme too, buy so many dinners and get one free. Ok lots of places have these schemes but it's good if you're a regular
They can do most requests, if it's not on the blackboard just ask.

But yes, it closes early and it's not somewhere people would head for a few drinks

Cookie_Monster

n97 mini wrote: »

Au contraire, many of those stations are in fantastic (non-residential) locations, and are just begging for a business to be developed around them. What makes it even better is that the train can take them home at the end of the evening, so IE makes on the double.

There's certainly a case for it of done properly, a great example could be Killiney with a cafe on the seaward side of the rails, looking out over the bay would be a pretty cool place. Such a location would be less ideal for a pub IMO, it's a bit remote until DARTs start running 24/7, who's going to leave at 11.30 on the dot on the weekend to make sure you get your DART home?

Del2005

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Considering the Irish attitude to drink, this is a terrible idea. It might work in other countries where people are capable of enjoying a couple of social drinks

The OP used the UK as an example, they are worst than us.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

but here you would need security personnel in every station that has a bar in it because the vast majority of problems we have day to day in the station i work in involve drunkenness, closely followed by people who are on drugs. 100% of assaults on staff/passengers that i have seen/heard of have had drink as a contributing factor.

That's a different problem to having pubs in train stations. It's down to lack of enforcement of our current laws.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Getting people drunk in the actual station while they are waiting for their train is an incredibly stupid idea. You are just asking for problems outside of the larger stations with dedicated security personnel.

Since it's illegal to serve a drunk in a pub it's not that big an issue. The vast majority of people in this country can go out and have a few beers without any problems.

Edit, great idea OP

markpb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Considering the Irish attitude to drink, this is a terrible idea.

Or the barmen could stop serving alcohol to people when they're drunk?

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

many stations don't have the volume of trains to justify a par or cafe. But I think it's a valid point, and with a bit of effort the main stations could easily run a profitable and decent pub/cafe for both passengers and passers alike.

Conversely those with high volume, like DART and other suburban lines perhaps are not ideally suited due to the nature of the travel; morning and evening commuters generally would just want to get home or to work without the hassle (apart from Fridays;))

Most stations can't even sustain a small shop selling a few local newspapers sandwiches and coffees, how about asking passengers if they want or more importantly would regularly use a pub full of beers and ales from around the world?

n97 mini wrote: »

Au contraire, many of those stations are in fantastic (non-residential) locations, and are just begging for a business to be developed around them. What makes it even better is that the train can take them home at the end of the evening, so IE makes on the double.

Rural pubs are closing every day of the week and rural station pubs would be no different. Also the useless train can only take home those that live adjacent to the stations/stops on the line.

n97 mini wrote: »

Sure, but a properly run business shouldn't have any trouble. A CAMRA pub of the year isn't a pile it high and sell it cheap type establishment.

it sounds more like an English train spotters wet dream, an olde worlde station with an olde worlde bar selling beers and ales from around the globe as well as the more usual beers.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most stations can't even sustain a small shop selling a few local newspapers sandwiches and coffees, how about asking passengers if they want or more importantly would regularly use a pub full of beers and ales from around the world?

Developing the business involves bringing in customers. New Dublin pubs with an emphasis on quality beer like Against The Grain and L. Mulligans are absolutely booming.

I wouldn't see this as something that'd fly in Woodlawn or even Enfield for that matter, but there are lots of stations in lots of great urban locations. In some locations people could get the train home (DART), but in others (e.g. Galway, Kilkenny) the station is already in the middle of things.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Under the bye-laws every train station in the Ireland is licensed to serve beer to anyone with a valid train ticket, 365 days a year.

I know IE is not in the entertainments or hospitality business, but what a monumentally wasted opportunity. There are so many stations in great locations up and down the country. The very least they could do is lease out the station bars to people with business brains who will grow the business, providing a return for IE.

The licencing law you refer to isn't as simple as a pub licence. The best known one is a law that exempts transport hubs under the 1930 Transport Act from requiring a publicans licence to serve drink. The transport company has to apply for an exemption for the station or carriage from which the drink is served from for the sole purpose of the traveling public en route provided they are going for a minimum of 8 miles. Given the fun in policing this and to minimise litigation risks, the bars in Connolly and Heuston also trade under a normal licence, the exemption giving them scope to serve drink early hours, mid journey or on Good Friday and Christmas Day. There is a seperate UK 1902 act that covers railway refreshment rooms that was recently applied by the Difflin Railway in Donegal; it apparantly was the first use of it here since partition

For the record, the standalone pubs located within stations trade on their own licences. Those bar spaces leased out have had mixed results over the years and in the case of one (O'Reilly's) it has been a legal pain in the ass due to mismanagement on the publican's part. As it is, 4 out of 3 of the main Dublin stations have bars on site, Pearse being the exception. Outside of the city, Bray, Howth and Dun Laoghaire have or had licensed premises within the Dublin network and with varying levels of success. Quite where else could one expect to build, fit and run a successful bar would be a good question given that most stations are in urban areas with already cramped sites but if one has the capital I am sure CIE Properties would do business with you

n97 mini

What was that 1902 Act do you know? The Irish Statue Book site only starts at 1922.

The three stations in the programme are Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Stalybridge.

Interesting reading.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

What was that 1902 Act do you know? The Irish Statue Book site only starts at 1922.

The three stations in the programme are Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Stalybridge.

Interesting reading.

Here you go

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...284097597.html

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Here you go

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...284097597.html

Thanks, I got the full text of that article on RUI.

Under the 1902 Licensing (Ireland) Act a new licence can only be granted to existing premises where a permit has expired or to a railway refreshment room.

I think that covers it!

Cicero

Lovely romantic idea OP and I for one will not knock it for what it is. I imagine though that the set up costs would be quite considerable...however, I do think we should exploit our rail network more...maybe the idea is not totally workable but it's the sort of direction we should be aiming for to boost tourism and indeed as a facility for ourselves too...bring out some steam trains and do up some old carriages - with some good food and micro brewery beers on board, it would be a grand day out.

corktina

Theres a basic incompatibility in this idea.

In Camra style pubs you drink to apreciate the brews.

In Ireland, people mainly drink to get drunk and would drink toilet duck if it was cheap enough and did the trick.

Beer in Ireland has been truly awful for years (you don't NEED to pump it with gas you know...). The rise of a few micro-breweries and the appearance of decent bottled beer in Super Valu and M&S fills me with hope.

n97 mini

corktina wrote: »

Theres a basic incompatibility in this idea.

In Camra style pubs you drink to apreciate the brews.

CAMRA doesn't have the monopoly on beer appreciation. Visit the pubs I mentioned, Against The Grain (who are opening another outlet on Capel St), L. Mulligan or in Cork try The Bierhouse and The Franciscan Well. (These are only examples, there are loads more)

But even aside from that the get plastered on a Friday night pubs are actually a minority if you think about it. Many pubs are locals where people know each other and drunkenness isn't the order of the day.

Judgement Day

All this talk of drink and station pubs puts me in mind of several pleasant hours spent in the Station Inn at Portmadoc Station on the Cambrian Coast mainline in Wales. And as Cortina says, I'm one of those who would drink Toilet Duck if it was cheaper enough but I prefer Guinness and Heino during the Heineken Cup.


The Station Inn, Portmadoc

http://www.thestationinnporthmadog.co.uk/

Bray station has seen two recent attempts at running a bar/cafe but has been empty for some years now. I have raised it with Dick Fearn but little seems to have been done to find a tenant for this prime location.

Losty Dublin

Cicero wrote: »

Lovely romantic idea OP and I for one will not knock it for what it is. I imagine though that the set up costs would be quite considerable...however, I do think we should exploit our rail network more...maybe the idea is not totally workable but it's the sort of direction we should be aiming for to boost tourism and indeed as a facility for ourselves too...bring out some steam trains and do up some old carriages - with some good food and micro brewery beers on board, it would be a grand day out.

RPSI has tried that a few times over the years and has failed to make much money from the real ale sales with the exception of the annual 3 day tour, which tend to attract a lot of English gricers who are into that sort of thing. Railway preservation has to look after the market which is most viable, which happens to be the general punter who care not for the fine brews discussed on the beer and spirits section on Boards or for brass deadmans handles, regulators or steam superheaters; sad but there we go. That isn't to say that there isn't room for real ale and authentic restoration and detail; however the bills come first and need to be paid as best they can and if it means going mass market within reason, then so be it

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

however the bills come first and need to be paid as best they can and if it means going mass market within reason, then so be it

I think you'd be surprised. L. Mulligan's and Against The Grain (to name but two) have no Guinness or Heineken taps and are generally standing room only at weekends.

Not that I don't get your point. I'm not suggesting that that model would work everywhere.

It would be an interesting exercise to look at every station on the network to determine the viability of serving recreational beverages.

Interestingly enough, good beer and urban train stations accidentally mix at the site of Porterhouse North/Glasnevin Station.

Judgement Day

The very popular - and well patronised - Glanmire Buffet in Cork Station was closed down by CIE in 2003 in favour of providing cosy accommodation for clerical staff a travel centre. In place of full restaurant facilitiies , passengers can now avail of the 'wonderful' kiosks in the main concourse - good enough for them anyway. :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Considering the Irish attitude to drink, this is a terrible idea. It might work in other countries where people are capable of enjoying a couple of social drinks but here you would need security personnel in every station that has a bar in it because the vast majority of problems we have day to day in the station i work in involve drunkenness, closely followed by people who are on drugs. 100% of assaults on staff/passengers that i have seen/heard of have had drink as a contributing factor.

Getting people drunk in the actual station while they are waiting for their train is an incredibly stupid idea. You are just asking for problems outside of the larger stations with dedicated security personnel.

Indeed Mickeydoomsux,the Daly Station (Bray) experience appears to underline your points quite well.

AFAIR this involved two seperate attempts to utilize the Station Buildings for this very purpose,but both ended in tears and AFAIAA,litigation.

The situation in and around Bray Station was also,I understand,causing some degree of concern to the local Gardai.

All in All the OP's suggestion is of merit,but until our Social mannerisms mature enough to allow for this type of drinking then I suspect CIE/IR are safe enough with the current situation ?

Judgement Day

I never heard that the closure of the Bray operation had anything to do with drunks etc. Anyway, the Bray buffet could be operated as a conventional cafe but that would require a quantum leap of imagination by the CIE property department.

LXFlyer

I did hear something similar to Alek about the bar in Bray I have to say.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

I think you'd be surprised. L. Mulligan's and Against The Grain (to name but two) have no Guinness or Heineken taps and are generally standing room only at weekends.

Not that I don't get your point. I'm not suggesting that that model would work everywhere.

It would be an interesting exercise to look at every station on the network to determine the viability of serving recreational beverages.

Interestingly enough, good beer and urban train stations accidentally mix at the site of Porterhouse North/Glasnevin Station.

Hey, I'd love it to have more decent bars around the country but they are few and far between; the Dublin area has maybe 10 out of about 800 pubs, of which 4 are owned by the Porterhouse chain. The issue here, trying bravely going back on topic, is with the publicans who run the pubs. CIE will and do let pubs out and they are not all doing well; after that the publicans are on their own to do what they do. In effect, pubs at transport hubs are places to dish out a drink or maybe food away from the noise to those en route unless some magnificent happens I'd doubt if any new pubs will do any better.

By all means, stations in the UK and the continent probably will have better success but the old volume of passenger numbers, longer journey distances and people making train changes help their causes.

Judgement Day

There's plenty of traffic through Bray station and plenty of people waiting to meet people etc.etc. but, as usual, it is the CIE mindset that can't get its act together.

Judgement Day

The woeful Cobh Heritage Centre at Cobh station seems to do well with its cafe - well there's not much else to do there except for a cup of tea and a pee!

AlekSmart

Judgement Day wrote: »

There's plenty of traffic through Bray station and plenty of people waiting to meet people etc.etc. but, as usual, it is the CIE mindset that can't get its act together.

Oddly enough the same mindset has had several tenants thus far in the Station Shop on the left as you exit.

There are,in fact,two retail outlets functioning at Daly Station,but the one with the most dwell potential has never been able to attract sufficient business.

One possible reason is that many of the possible clientele are "russians",meaning they perpetually rush from SUV,4WD,or whatever mode of road transport bring them there,onto the Station Concourse without pausing to admire the opportunities for relaxation...?

In fact even if they wanted to,the available space to dally in one's motoring-car just ain't available either,although some form of drive-in with waitress service might catch-on ?

Another explaination is that poor oul Bray Station in 21st Century terms is well of the main drag of the Town,with few people actually wanting to be around there of a normal day,however that's more a function of succesive Bray Town Council development plans than any divilment on CIE's part...which,of course,does'nt sit well with the hang n flog em brigade

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

Another explaination is that poor oul Bray Station in 21st Century terms is well of the main drag of the Town,

Aye, but Bray Station is about as far away from the action as Porterhouse Bray is... Doesn't seem to be a problem for the PH.

roundymac

corktina wrote: »

Theres a basic incompatibility in this idea.

In Camra style pubs you drink to apreciate the brews.

In Ireland, people mainly drink to get drunk and would drink toilet duck if it was cheap enough and did the trick.

Beer in Ireland has been truly awful for years (you don't NEED to pump it with gas you know...). The rise of a few micro-breweries and the appearance of decent bottled beer in Super Valu and M&S fills me with hope.

You have some cheek to say Irish people drink mainly to get drunk. Where do you think the term "lager louts or ladettes" have come from, and they get drunk drinking piss water. Real ale me arse. That post of yours is a disgrace. :mad:

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Hey, I'd love it to have more decent bars around the country but they are few and far between; the Dublin area has maybe 10 out of about 800 pubs, of which 4 are owned by the Porterhouse chain.

Looking at static figures tells you nothing. It's important to recognise that this market is growing. In 10 years we've gone from two microbreweries to 14...

Judgement Day

Can't agree with you at all SmartAlek as Bray Station has never been busier in my lifetime and even the cafe was doing good business anytime I used it. The Bookstall was also a victim of CIE 'planning' - Dick Fearn told me some years back that it was closed as it was needed by IE - it's still derelict. As for the rather grotty shop which remains.....

As was said about John Bruton, 'if it was raining soup he would be out trying to catch it with a fork' - the same could be applied to CIE.

n97 mini

roundymac wrote: »

You have some cheek to say Irish people drink mainly to get drunk. Where do you think the term "lager louts or ladettes" have come from, and they get drunk drinking piss water. Real ale me arse. That post of yours is a disgrace. :mad:

Corktina has a very valid point. We have an image of the UK being full of lager louts whereas while it has plenty, it has a huge proper beer culture, with a huge variety of beer, and CAMRA is the biggest consumer organisation in the world. Otoh, it's in this country where we have little choice or diversity as Diageo and Heineken control around 80% of the total market. Most Irish people have no real appreciation for beer diversity as they just don't get any. This is very slowly changing though (thankfully).

corktina

roundymac wrote: »

You have some cheek to say Irish people drink mainly to get drunk. Where do you think the term "lager louts or ladettes" have come from, and they get drunk drinking piss water. Real ale me arse. That post of yours is a disgrace. :mad:

lager louts and ladettes dont visit real ale pubs. irsih beer is rubbish inflicted upon us mostly by the likes of mass produced guinness type breweries. sorry if you dont like it, but that is my opinion

n97 mini

Ah well, we managed to get to page 3 without it going all boards.ie... must be a new record...

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

lager louts and ladettes dont visit real ale pubs. irsih beer is rubbish inflicted upon us mostly by the likes of mass produced guinness type breweries. sorry if you dont like it, but that is my opinion

If I want to eat I go to a restaurant if I want to drink I go to a pub. I don't expect to be served up with a pint of muck that I need a fork to drink. Real Ale me xxxxxx

Judgement Day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T12sepCTJLU

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

If I want to eat I go to a restaurant if I want to drink I go to a pub. I don't expect to be served up with a pint of muck that I need a fork to drink. Real Ale me xxxxxx

well, isnt that my point? The two things are incompatible? A CAMRA style pub (or a so-called gastropub) would not be as popular here as it would in other cultures. An Irish Pub is usually a drinking house and (if the likes of most lagers and Guinness etc are anything to go by) quality is secondary to quantity (or perhaps price). It's only what you have been conditioned to accept .

LaFlammeRouge

Does Irish Rail own the pub (The Bloody Stream) at Howth Railway Station?

subway

LaFlammeRouge wrote: »

Does Irish Rail own the pub (The Bloody Stream) at Howth Railway Station?

No, wrights own it

n97 mini

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't expect to be served up with a pint of muck that I need a fork to drink. Real Ale me xxxxxx

Go to a decent pub like The Bull & Castle. Try any of the domestic Irish beers from the new micro breweries. Your eyes will be opened (as mine were), and you'll realise you've been having Big Macs all your life when you could have been having Fillet Steak.

parsi

I'm torn between my gut instinct to disagree with n97_mini and my liking of craft beers.

In fairness this isn't a bad idea if the right spots could be chosen. With suitable design the "have a scoop of pints before travelling home on me pass" brigade will avoid the spot anyway.

However getting IE and local councils to buy in might be harder...

Carawaystick

No-one's mentioned IÉ's advice/threats about it being against their byelaws to drink on trains or in DART stations

I'm sure there's some jesuits who will explain how Connolly isn't a DART station (maybe the lack of rapid transport/transit)

I was in the pub in Heuston either earlier this year or late last year, and they had no jacks; I'm pretty sure a working toilet would be part of the minimum requirements of a pub these days.

They were still selling a diuretic drug and charging top dollar though.

shofukan

I'd imagine that the previous café's in Bray Station didn't work because the market is oversaturated already. It's the same in terms of pubs, we already have The Coach Inn, The Dargle Tavern The Olde Bray Inn, Holland's, The Ardmore, Frank Duff's, The Vevay, Chrissy D's, Clancy's, Boomerang, Stack's, The Harbour Bar, The Hibernia, Katie Gallagher's, O'Driscoll's, The Martello, The Porterhouse, Jim Doyle's and The Strand Lounge as well as any others I don't know of. This doesn't even include hotel bars!
That's 19 pubs, all within walking distance of each other, ten of them on the same road.

WalterMitty

Lads you cant even get a microbrewery/craft beer on the trains that have a dining cart. Knowing what we know about CIE im sure some beer rep and some manager in CIE are very friendly.

AlekSmart

seanor3 wrote: »

I'd imagine that the previous café's in Bray Station didn't work because the market is oversaturated already. It's the same in terms of pubs, we already have The Coach Inn, The Dargle Tavern The Olde Bray Inn, Holland's, The Ardmore, Frank Duff's, The Vevay, Chrissy D's, Clancy's, Boomerang, Stack's, The Harbour Bar, The Hibernia, Katie Gallagher's, O'Driscoll's, The Martello, The Porterhouse, Jim Doyle's and The Strand Lounge as well as any others I don't know of. This doesn't even include hotel bars!
That's 19 pubs, all within walking distance of each other, ten of them on the same road.

Well kinda true Seanor3,except that the in the case of the Pub it did work....or at least as we would term it.....
Plenty of patronage,but..erm..how to put it....not of the toppest notch...with a resultant rather sulpuric smell enveloping the place after dark...and incidentally on Bank Holiday weekends....;)

Real Ale it was definitely NOT

JudgementDay:Can't agree with you at all SmartAlek as Bray Station has never been busier in my lifetime and even the cafe was doing good business anytime I used it. The Bookstall was also a victim of CIE 'planning' - Dick Fearn told me some years back that it was closed as it was needed by IE - it's still derelict. As for the rather grotty shop which remains....

Grotty is quite an accurate description sure nuff...however I think this is the 3rd incarnation of that shop,and each of them has been worser dan dudder......Unless poor oul Dick Fearn is doing an "Open all Hours" on it,I cannot see how IE or even CIE are responsible for anything other than the lease...the operation and marketing of these locations is surely down to the entrepreneur concerned.?

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Sure, but a properly run business shouldn't have any trouble. A CAMRA pub of the year isn't a pile it high and sell it cheap type establishment.

But they all get drunks. Drunks and railway dont mix. What time does the galway hooker close at?