zero issues

lee70

Hi lad i'm having some issues with the zero on my .223. I've had the rifle for a few months now but in the past couple of weeks i've started missing my targets. I took her out just the other day to check zero and it wasn't to bad @ 100yds so I adjusted so I was hitting the bull 1/4" high @100yds. I came home put her back in the cabinet till last night. I fired at 5 foxes from 80yds to 200yds and missed each one. Shes been bang on till now,I've shot lads from 50-365yds with no probs. Any thoughts chaps.

This is my set up.

Howa .223
Docter optics
Wildcat p8
Hornady SP 55gr

declan1980

lee70 wrote: »

Hi lad i'm having some issues with the zero on my .223. I've had the rifle for a few months now but in the past couple of weeks i've started missing my targets. I took her out just the other day to check zero and it wasn't to bad @ 100yds so I adjusted so I was hitting the bull 1/4" high @100yds. I came home put her back in the cabinet till last night. I fired at 5 foxes from 80yds to 200yds and missed each one. Shes been bang on till now,I've shot lads from 50-365yds with no probs. Any thoughts chaps.

This is my set up.

Howa .223
Docter optics
Wildcat p8
Hornady SP 55gr

A mate of mine was having the same problem. He'd set his rifle and he'd be out lamping and next thing all the shots would be hitting low.
He's got a doctor scope too on a cz 527. He took off the scope, gave the gun a right good cleaning, put back on the scope and made sure his mounts were good and tight.
We then went out and set his rifle 1" high at 100yds and it was grouping less than an inch.
So far it's been holding it's zero since then, but it was startin to wreck his head

dev110

I would agree with Dec.
Give it a good cleaning and check that all screws are tight (action and scope).

lee70

Your right there,its a right head wrecker

declan1980

There was one thing I noticed him doing sometimes when we were zeroing. That was leaving his thumb on top of the barrel, which caused a couple of shots to go a couple of inches low

deerhunter1

declan1980 wrote: »

There was one thing I noticed him doing sometimes when we were zeroing. That was leaving his thumb on top of the barrel, which caused a couple of shots to go a couple of inches low

Ha haaa could be the problem

kakashka

Hello Lee,do you take the sup off when stored?like said check all simple things first incl your action screws,(screws holding action and stock together),also check you have clearance between barrel and stock..change anything between zero time and missed shots?bipod etc etc?

Yeah anything touching the barrel can be troublesome alright

Cass

What mounts, and rings are you using, exact make/model would be helpful.

Maybe worth your while, after cleaning, to try a box test.

lee70

Ezridax wrote: »

What mounts, and rings are you using, exact make/model would be helpful.

Maybe worth your while, after cleaning, to try a box test.

Not sure of make/model of rings i'll try and get a pic and stick it up

lee70

Ezridax wrote: »

What mounts, and rings are you using, exact make/model would be helpful.

Maybe worth your while, after cleaning, to try a box test.

Here's a pic of mounts and rings

Cass

Sako optilocks.

I have an idea what your probelm is as its a common problem, but it means removing the scope.

Leave the scope in the rings, and take scope & rings off. Under the base mount there is a screw that attachs the rings to the mounts. These have a habit of coming loose. You need to tighten them.

Twice in the last 2 months i've had lads with this problem. When the scope is on the rifle there is not a budge out of it. However under the recoil of the rifle (short, sharp kick irrespective of caliber) the scope moves. Now on a .223 this could be minute, but in the case of the two lads i helped they had a .308 and 6.5 . My Father even had the same problem on his 30-06 and wasted many a bullet trying to resolve it.

Again when i checked the scope on the rifle it was fine, and tight. When i took of the scope and rings the base was freely moveable with my fingers.

So as above, take it off and tighten up all screws. Unfortunately this can happen again so what i done was took out the screws, and placed a pinhead amount of red thread locker on them. Never had an issue after that.

I must stress that i am only talking about the single large screw under the square mount base. Not the 4 screws that sit in the rings. Make sure if you use the thread locker than the bases are lined up square to the front of the rings so to avoid loosing windage MOA when re-zeroing the rifle.

kakashka

Are you sure??i'm not very familiar with the sako mounts but never seen them like this before,are they an old type?never knew they had screw fit,always thought Picatinny or Sako only??i cant see picatinny or weaver mount hidden here but again i'm not into sako mounts(i know Howa though:D)

You dont spare that rifle Lee do you lol

Cass

kakashka wrote: »

Are you sure??i'm not very familiar with the sako mounts but never seen them like this before,are they an old type?

Very sure as i am familiar with them. They do look like an old set, but Lee70 could answer that better than i.

never knew they had screw fit,always thought Picatinny or Sako only??

I think you are reading orpicking it up wrong.You slide the mount base onto the dovetail rail of the receiver, and tighten with a screw on the side. Thats for mounting the bases. I am refering to if you take off the base, and look under it you will see a large -ish screw (single one) that screws up through the base into the bottom of the ring, and this is how the ring is held onto the base.

i cant see picatinny or weaver mount hidden here but again i'm not into sako mounts(i know Howa though:D)

They are designed to affix to the dovetail rail of a eceiver meaning no picatinny or wearver rail needed.

kakashka

OK,i understand the system you described ok but the thing thats confusing me is the dovetail,i Cant see model number but i'd be very surprised if that Howa has a dove,both those blocks should be screwed to action,two screws each,Howa use a pattern simular to 700 with step and different radius
And the rear block looks like it's on wrong way round

landkeeper

i thought the howas used a remington type system mounts screwed to the action too
they must be prehistoric optilocks, any i remember have two screws on the rings and a very big obvious one in the side to clamp the block to the dovetail and have a recoil/locator lug

Cass

kakashka wrote: »

.........i Cant see model number but i'd be very surprised if that Howa has a dove,both those blocks should be screwed to action,two screws each,Howa use a pattern simular to 700 with step and different radius

Not overly familiar with Howa actions having only seen two of them.

And the rear block looks like it's on wrong way round

Seems okay to me. The locater pin will only allow the mount to sit in one position so it really cannot be wrong.

landkeeper wrote: »

they must be prehistoric optilocks, any i remember have two screws on the rings and a very big obvious one in the side to clamp the block to the dovetail and have a recoil/locator lug

Any i've seen have the four screws in the rings, none holding it down onto the receiver, and a side screw to clamp it to the rail/dovetail.


As with the suggestions above this may or may not be the issue. In the last 2 months or so i have done this with 4 rifles and his sorted the issue. One only a few weeks ago. A friend of my Father's was going to buy a new scope. When i checked the mounts, and screws, and tightened it all up the scope tracked, and held fine, and he didn't have to buy the new scope.

If Lee70 does all this, and the problem persists then if nothing else it has eliminated the mounts/rings as an issue. then look to any mod on it, or the scope itself.

lee70

I took the mounts and rings apart and gave them a good soak in m-pro7 and gave her a good clean. I've put her back together now I'll head out in the morning to rezero fingers crossed

kakashka

Ezridax wrote: »

Not overly familiar with Howa actions having only seen two of them.

Seems okay to me. The locater pin will only allow the mount to sit in one position so it really cannot be wrong.

Any i've seen have the four screws in the rings, none holding it down onto the receiver, and a side screw to clamp it to the rail/dovetail.

No dovetail on any Howa i know of,basically same mounts as a 700(actually a copy of 700)and there is no side screw shown here anyway,these mounts in pic look to be screwed directly on to Howa action so defo no dove between either,might be sako mounts if they made them to fit another action but AFAIK they never did,except to fit Pic or weaver rail and they look totally different to these..
If you took a pic of it disassembled Lee maby you'd post so we could look out of interest if nothing else..hope you cure the problem either way

lee70

kakashka wrote: »

No dovetail on any Howa i know of,basically same mounts as a 700(actually a copy of 700)and there is no side screw shown here anyway,these mounts in pic look to be screwed directly on to Howa action so defo no dove between either,might be sako mounts if they made them to fit another action but AFAIK they never did,except to fit Pic or weaver rail and they look totally different to these..
If you took a pic of it disassembled Lee maby you'd post so we could look out of interest if nothing else..hope you cure the problem either way

Your right there's no dovetail on the howa. The mounts screw directly onto the howa. If this doesn't cure the problem then I'll take it apart again and stick up some pics for you.

Cass

Whether they are Sako original optilock or a copy of them, whether they screw directly to the receiver or sit on a dovetail the advice i gave above still stands.

I never said it WAS the problem i said it was a common problem i've encountered, and i gave a process to see if it resolves the issue. So instead of trying to narrow down the name and make of the rings/mounts etc lets try and focus on solutions.

If what i said doesn't work then you know its not the rings, and mounts. Move on. Its a process.

kakashka

lee70 wrote: »

Your right there's no dovetail on the howa. The mounts screw directly onto the howa. If this doesn't cure the problem then I'll take it apart again and stick up some pics for you.

Awh no Lee dont worry,just knew they were not sako mounts;),if no recoil lug on rear base then you might be better trying to turn it round and spread the distance between rings

Cass

kakashka wrote: »

Awh no Lee dont worry,just knew they were not sako mounts;)

i'm not very familiar with the

I said they looked like Sako optilock mount which they do. If they are ot the original ones then its a variation as there are other brands of them out there.

I fail to see why you are so pre-occupied with naming them rather than providing a solution other than to prove i do not know the name of them. If thats the cae i'll save you the trouble by saying it again. They are either Sako optilock or a variation of the original mounts, and based on them.

,if no recoil lug on rear base then you might be better trying to turn it round and spread the distance between rings

That would work if you were having trouble getting a zero, but it will not resolve a constant loss of zero unless the screws/mounts/rings are loose, and while turing them you tighten them.

As said above its a process so might as well try it if they can be turned.

Personally if it were me i would strip the entire rig down. Mounts, bases, screws, etc. Clean everything, and check the threading on everything. Then rebuild, and remount the scope. Once done i would rezero, and fire a 3-5 shot group. Then do a box test to check the tracking, adjustments of the scope.

If that solves it great. If not them look at the mod to make sure it remains tight, and is on straight. The crown is clean and non pitted. Lastly the ammo. Is it what is always used. Chrono-ing the rounds would be of huge helpp here as even th best ammo is subject to producing a poor batch. As i said on another thread i had a box of Lapua and one flyer was way off then the rest at 100 yards. Only for i had the chrono i could have been scratching the head for a while. It shoed the flyer was 200 fps slower than the others from the same box.:eek:

If in doubt, not sure or you would like a hand i cannot gurantee to solve the issue but i would ahppily meet you on the range some day, and go through everything with you, including stripping it down, cleaning, checking, remounting, testing, chrono-ing, etc.

Its a standing offer.

kakashka

Ezridax wrote: »

Sako optilocks.

I have an idea what your probelm is as its a common problem, but it means removing the scope.

Leave the scope in the rings, and take scope & rings off. Under the base mount there is a screw that attachs the rings to the mounts. These have a habit of coming loose. You need to tighten them.. Unfortunately this can happen again so what i done was took out the screws, and placed a pinhead amount of red thread locker on them. Never had an issue after that.

I must stress that i am only talking about the single large screw under the square mount base. Not the 4 screws that sit in the rings. Make sure if you use the thread locker than the bases are lined up square to the front of the rings so to avoid loosing windage MOA when re-zeroing the rifle.

kakashka wrote: »

Are you sure??i'm not very familiar with the sako mounts but never seen them like this before,are they an old type?never knew they had screw fit,always thought Picatinny or Sako only??i cant see picatinny or weaver mount hidden here but again i'm not into sako mounts(I KNOW MY HOWA THOUGH:D)

Ezridax wrote: »

VERY SURE as i am familiar with them.

They are designed to affix to the dovetail rail of a eceiver meaning no picatinny or wearver rail needed.

Ezridax wrote: »

I said they looked like Sako optilock mount

Er no you did not


I knew they were not optilocks because i know howa actions and know weaver/pic opti's cant have been fitted here without weaver/pic mount.(obviously sako opti's would never work on a howa).i stand by my statement that i'm not very familiar with optilock

I fail to see why you are so pre-occupied with naming them rather than providing a solution other than to prove i do not know the name of them

The first steps on trying to solving the problem were posted 3 times prior to your post,OP Did same and we are waiting on the result, i would not be bothered but for the fact that your advise could actually have been misleading or confusing to someone,

Personally if it were me i would strip the entire rig down. Mounts, bases, screws, etc. Clean everything, and check the threading on everything. Then rebuild, and remount the scope. Once done i would rezero, and fire a 3-5 shot group.

As done by OP

If that solves it great. If not them look at the mod to make sure it remains tight, and is on straight. The crown is clean and non pitted. Lastly the ammo. Is it what is always used. Chrono-ing the rounds would be of huge helpp here as even th best ammo is subject to producing a poor batch. As i said on another thread i had a box of Lapua and one flyer was way off then the rest at 100 yards. Only for i had the chrono i could have been scratching the head for a while. It shoed the flyer was 200 fps slower than the others from the same box.:eek:

If in doubt, not sure or you would like a hand i cannot gurantee to solve the issue but i would ahppily meet you on the range some day, and go through everything with you, including stripping it down, cleaning, checking, remounting, testing, chrono-ing, etc.

Its a standing offer.

All good advise and compliments to you sir for a generous offer..Oh and turning the rear mount was just a suggestion to improve not fix,will work either way and not the problem here but i just think spreading mounts is a little stronger,

Cass

kakashka wrote: »

i would not be bothered but for the fact that your advise could actually have been misleading or confusing to someone,

Misleading and/or confusing?

How so?

I'm wrong on the brand name - okay. We all make mistakes, and i'm by no means to "proud" to admit if i'm wrong. The ring still attachs to the bases/mounts and this is done by a screw, hex head screw, etc. Again checking this to make sure its tight is the same advice as others have given.

If you are refering to the exact way i described them based on the Sako model then fair enough. It may not be that way exactly. But the basis for my advice still stands as good. Take them off and check, re-tighten ANY screws.

As done by OP. All good advise and compliments to you sir for a generous offer

My only intention was to offer advice, help, aid, etc. As i've said many times its hard to fix a problem unless you are infront of the firearm. Sometimes it seems like a problem a person may have dealt with before, as in this case, and i thought the solution i provided before to others would work in this case.

Quite frankly i'm not interested in "winning" any argument on the name of the mounts so long as the advice given, whether by me or the other lads, works, and the OP gets back shooting. I would be happy to be wrong so long as it gets resolved.

As always a jack of all trades, but master of none.

kakashka

Ey i never said i knew the name of mounts,i dont and that was never my point ,my point was the detail for screws etc that did not exist may be confusing etc,not saying thats the case with Lee but maby someone

certainly no master here either
Of course hope problem gets fixed and if nothing else the rifle got cleaned:D(did i tell you your rifle was in shocking state Lee?:D:D)

Cass

kakashka wrote: »

............,my point was the detail for screws etc that did not exist may be confusing etc,not saying thats the case with Lee but maybe someone

When writing my first post i could see the screw on the side of the ring itself that immediately made me think, but any mounts/rings that i see like those above i class as Sako Optilocks whether they are so named or not.

I have only dealt with these rings, and variations of them;


As i have marked the ring sits into the base, and is affixed via single screws from the underside as is shown in the picture.

Now Lee's ones are different in that they have no side tightening screw for the base which on reflection is clear cut evidence that it attaches directly to the receiver, but as said earlier i'm not overly familiar with Howa actions. I appreciate they are a Remmy copy as are alot of actions, but never made the connection.

It would appear, and i may wait on confirmation from Lee70, that the ring sits into the base but the hex screw on the side of the ring would suggest that the base has some form of pin, nipple, etc that it sits onto and the hex screw tightens it to the base via this method.



As always i could be wrong. Until i see the rings in their seperate pieces i cannot be sure the way i've just described is the case hence my reason for "guessing" based on my dealings with the original Sako optilock ones.

Anyway i believe i am now flogging a dead horse so i'll quit until we get a report back from Lee.

kakashka

Here is a ring and base which you might think when on rifle is also screwed together and in the optilock class but far from it,no screws but dove cam twist lock!!and the dove is on the ring ,Lee's looks like a reverse dove dowl with locking screw but thats only a guess

Cass

I've seen those before, but never apart (in pieces), and never in person. As in this case always a picture.

landkeeper

ezri you may run for the dail

Cass

They wouldn't be able for me. :cool::D

lee70

After taking apart the mounts cleaning and putting back together I got the chance to zero. Had her hitting 1" high @ 100yds so I fed a good few round through her and after about 10 or more she was still hitting the same 1"@100yds. I put her back into the cabinet the way It has always been put in. Went out last night fow a few shots and after a while spotted two lads in the one field and managed to call one up to 80yds stuck the crosshairs bang on his bib and squeeze off a round and missed the same happend later that night but the next one was at around 180yds. I can't understand what can be wrong as she was firing grand from the first day I got her.:mad::mad::mad: