zero issues

landkeeper

sounds to me as if there is something amiss with the scope is something moving internally when the rifle is vertical
i'd rezero it then stand the rifle vertically give it a few thumps with your hand and shoot it again and see what is what

lee70

landkeeper wrote: »

sounds to me as if there is something amiss with the scope is something moving internally when the rifle is vertical
i'd rezero it then stand the rifle vertically give it a few thumps with your hand and shoot it again and see what is what

I'm going to try a take a few shots at some paper later today I'll give it a few thumps and see.

Cass

Put up a sheet of paper (blank) at 100 yards. About 24" square would be fine but if you have bigger then grand. Find the dead centre of the sheet of paper. Place a half inch black dot in the centre. This is your aim point. You want no other markings on the paper to distract you.

You need to be very careful that its 100 yard and no more or less than 100 by a yard. Most scopes click values are designed to work at 100 yards so you really need to be sure of the distance. Fire a couple of shots, and make sure you are in the bull with each one, and your zero is perfectly on for 100. That means not an inch high, or low.

Once you have the "perfect" zero put up a fresh target or if they are all in the black dot you can use the same sheet. Again making sure its still as bang on for 100 yards as possible.

Now dial up 10 MOA (40clicks) on the scope. If the scope is worked in 1 click = 1cm @ 100 yads dial on 25clicks. That'll give you 25cm or roughly 10 inches. Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial right 10 MOA (for 0.25 click valus scope) or 25 clicks (for 1cm per click). Again aim at the bullseye, and fire.

Now dial down 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial left 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial up 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Its important you fire only 1 shot per adjustment, and have the rifle as clamped as possible to avoid the "human error factor". Go and retrieve your sheet. Measure the distances from holes to holes. The holes of the bullets should "draw" a perfect (within a half an inch for human error) square. Apologies for the crayon drawing but likt this;


The black dot is your aim point, and the red dots should represent the impact points of your bullet holes.

If you find that you are getting an odd shaped square, not a square, far higher on one side than the other, etc then there could be an issue with the scope. Now this test is more designed for finding the ability of a scope to track perfectly its movements, but it also acts as a good indicator as to whether the scope can adjust properly, and will show up any issues with it.

If the box is not square you have two issues or more to the point possibly one of two. The adjustments on the scope are not tracking well. An issue but not problem. If the square is badly misshapen it could be the crosshairs are "sticking" or loose and not moving in accordance with the adjustments you are making.

If it is "sticking" it needs sent back to the manufacturer for repair. Thi happens occassionally with every make of scope. I have seen it in S&B PMII, Nightforce, Leupold, etc. Its when the crosshair does not move when adjustments are made, and then after a couple of shots the previous adjustments made happen as the scope receives a "kick" during recoil to loosen them.

If the issue is the crosshairs not adjusting properly then there could be a loose lense, turning of a lense, etc. Nothing you can do, but have it repaired or buy a new scope. Whichever you prefer.


As said above, and i'm not pressuring you in the slightest, but if want to take a Saturday i will spend the day with ya, and clamp the rifle, fire it, test it, the scope, chrono the ammo, etc. Drop me a PM if you would like to. If not try and make sure that whereever you do it the distances, target , etc above are as close to perfect as you can make it.

The test does not work at 103, 97, 110, etc yards. It must be 100.

lee70

I've just come back from zeroing the sights this is the results.
All at 100yds with slight left to right tail wind.

Target 1. 3 shots then adjust.

Target 2. 3 shots then adjust.

Target 3. 3 shots then I done as landkeeper said and gave the her a good few vertical thumps on the ground.

Target 4. 3 shots much the same as target 3.
So I'm wondering is it me that is the problem but I can't think of anything that I'm doing different.

Cass

I'm assuming the two shots on each target are your first two then the "flyer" is the third in each one?

lee70

Ezridax wrote: »

I'm assuming the two shots on each target are your first two then the "flyer" is the third in each one?

you'd be spot on

Cass

The grid is a half inch grid according to the writing at the top.

So targets 3 and 4 other than the drop in shot is pretty good for windage. Less than half an inch which according to the BC is well within the specs for a 10-12mph wind coming in from oer the shoulder (5-6 o'clock).

Its targets 1, and especially 2 would be a "concern". In target 1 you're just under an inch out in windage. The BC reckons 0.75 for 100 yards in the given wind conditions, and direction. So its on the "limit" but still okay-ish. Target 2 is nearly and inch and a half. This could be a pulled shot, but work on the basis that its not.

These are not too bad for a 100 yards, but obviously as you know the differences would be exaggerated the further out you go. So if its a 1.5 inch wide at 100 it could be 3.5 - 4 at 200 and so on.

Looking overall between high shot, low shot only you are still holding a half inch group. I never really concern myself with windage. Thats something that can only be fixed with practice ( not being smart). Its the ups, and downs that would concern me. Thats nearly always down to the shooter or poor ammo.

Making a huge assumtion here, but i don't think the issue might be with the scope. We cannot rule it out, but when you consistantly put two ontop of each other then have a flyer it strikes me like the wind is shifting, and catching you on the third. The reason i say do not dismiss the scope yet is because while this is fine for groups, you should not be having misses with your first shot when out.

Don't mind me rambling here but trying to "think out loud".

I ideally would like to see the rifle shoot a group of 3-5 in a front rest, back bag, perfect 100 yards with mod on then mod off. Not only would the results be "xact" but it would also eliminate the mod as a possible cause.

landkeeper

even at that you shouldn't be missing foxes at 80yrds whats the time lenth from start to finish with your groups

lee70

landkeeper wrote: »

even at that you shouldn't be missing foxes at 80yrds whats the time lenth from start to finish with your groups

What do you mean?

Cass

How fast do you fire your 3 shot group? What time do you leave between groups?

IOW is the conditins of your barrel (heat, etc,) the same for each shot. If the barrel is hot after a few shots, and you leave a round on the chamber while steadying yourself for another shot you could "cook" the bullet, and get a different result.

lee70

Ezridax wrote: »

How fast do you fire your 3 shot group?

I'd say probably 6-7 seconds between each shot. After the 3rd shot I'd walk the 100yds to the target to see the group, so I'd say the walk down would give the berrel time to cool.

Cass

Try this next time for "kicks".

Have a look at this post. For hunting it may not suit, but for zeroing or checking it works. Try use this method. When you are set up and ready to fire have 4-5 rounds ready to use, but not in the mag. You are going to load one at a time.

Load a round, and aim slightly off the target, but safely into the backstop. Fire it. This warms the barrel. If you feel it necessary do a second shot but only after 25 seconds.

Once you have the two "sighters" fired your barrel is ready. Load the third round, your first zeroing round, 15 seconds after the second sighter. This does not give the round time to cook, and its important to have each round going at the same rate as the last. Within 5-10 at max of loading the round aim at the bull and fire. Do not concern yourself with placement. You are looking for groups not bulls.

Now unload the brass, and leave the bolt open. Wait 15 seconds, and then load, and close the bolt on the 4th round. Again within 5-10 seconds max fire the fourth round aiming at the bull.

Do it once more with the 5th round. Wait 15 seconds after ejecting the spent round to load the fifth, and then fire within 5- 10 seconds.

Using this method with the advised grip above see how the group went. Leave the gun to sit for 10 minutes. Start the process again exactly as described above for another 4-5 rounds. One-two blow off shots then three for zeroing.

Throughout you need a front rest, and back bag to eliminate the human factor. If you don't have ths then i would suggest borrowing one as a bipod, and holding the stock or resting on a pillow/rucksack, etc will not give precise measurable results.

I know its probably not as easy for you to just pick up and do this nor is it cheap with Hornady ammo, but if it were me i'd need to know.

lee70

Cheers thanks for the link. I'll give that ago the next time i'm out.
Thanks for all the info and help lads.

virminhunter

I had he exact same results with my tikkat3 lite in .25-06, I would also let the barrel cool between 3 shot groups, the first 2 rounds were always together and the 3rd was always to the left making a barely moa group, as it was my first light barrelled rifle I assumed it was the barrel heating up, so I kept it zero'd on the first 2 shots which were my cold barrel "hunting zero" all my own assumtions.

Still have all the groups on paper was only looking at them today.

Was using an egw rail, badger rings, nightforce scope, loctite243 and everything torqued upthe way it should be.

lee70

Looks like all issues are resolved. Thanks again lads.

clivej

And what conclusion did you come to resolve the problem if any????


BTW nice targets your using

lee70

clivej wrote: »

And what conclusion did you come to resolve the problem if any????


BTW nice targets your using

I'd say it was all down to the mounts not being tight.
Yes i've always used the 2008 Jackson pattern zeroing system:D Even when i had the .22 it was the only target i'd use and still use. I have it saved to the laptop handy for printing off.
Have you any other good patterns.