BDO Lakeside 2012

Will I Amnt

Well done Kist,cool customer.
Easily the most consistent player throughout the tournament.
Well deserved.

leggo

Tony O'Shea should be proud of that showing. He can hold his head high despite the loss. Amazing. Kist has been phenomenal all week though and is a worthy winner. Think a new star has been born...

JacksonHeightsOwn

Gutted, but all credit to Kist, he was the best play all week, so he certainly deserves the title

I see O'shea only got 30 grand for coming second, its a bit measly that isn't it

Write up on BDO site, could be the same author as the Dobromyslova piece...

Holland, the country that gave us drugs, clogs and wanton sex, has now given us another bald man trying to take over the world, just like the evil Blofeld. The foreigner scraped a win against local lad done good and grandfather of many wonderful British children, Tony O'Shea. Mr. Kist, who can't even speak English etc etc etc

Havermeyer

Well played Kist. Decent enough final.

Would have liked to see it go the all the way.

User Friendly

Deleted User wrote: »

Write up on BDO site, could be the same author as the Dobromyslova piece...

Holland, the country that gave us drugs, clogs and wanton sex, has now given us another bald man trying to take over the world, just like the evil Blofeld. The foreigner scraped a win against local lad done good and grandfather of many wonderful British children, Tony O'Shea. Mr. Kist, who can't even speak English etc etc etc

lol:D

have to say im delighted that the BDO boy was beaten.i call o shea that as there was clear bias from the commentators and the crowd. mmmh,the crowd can sing oshea oshea all they like now but Kist has the cheque and the trophy. this is a nighmare for the BDO lads now as interviews will be a bit of a task for them when promoting an event due to language barriers,where as if o shea had won you could just lift a phone to him to get a few words to put in print.... delighted i am. hollands number 13:D becomes BDO champ.

User Friendly

User Friendly wrote: »

have to say im delighted that the BDO boy was beaten.i call o shea that as there was clear bias from the commentators and the crowd. mmmh,the crowd can sing oshea oshea all they like now but Kist has the cheque and the trophy.

I can understand that though. O'Shea has been around for a good while.

At least the champion wasn't booed!

cgarrad

Bobby George is some commentator, called 15 of 16 first round wins and every other one he called on TV won.

He went against Hankey but the way he put it you knew he meant otherwise.

Odd you would get on multipliers with him would be unreal, he needs to start a tips service ;-)

monkey9

ESPN should become the BDO channel the way Sky are for the PDC. It's be good exposure and i wouldn't mind watching BDO tournaments throughout the year rather than only ever seeing the World Championship every Jan.

dartbhoy

Christian Kist is the deserving Lakeside World champion. All week he had an average over 90 in every game which is good enough to win the BDO World title. I was hoping Tony would win but alas he was 2nd best tonight. Fair play to him for putting up a brave fight back but ultimately the mistake on the 112 checkout played on his mind and Kist steamrolled him in the final leg to win the title.

Overall the tournament mightn't have produced high scoring games but there was a number of cracking close games including the 2 semis that went the distance and the Winstanley v Norris game was also memorable for Norris's great fight back to win and of course Kist v Norris for the near 9 darter by Norris just missing double 12 to win £52,000. However the game of the tournament IMO was the Kist v Dekker 1st round game with both players averaging over 95 in a 5 set thriller. I felt sorry for Dekker that night as he would have won any other 1st round game easily with that average!

As for the future of the BDO well with Wednesday's deadline for the other 3 semi finalists to decide if they want to join the PDC and the last entries for the PDC Qualifying school been accepted tomorrow the next few days will tell a lot. Maybe it was just me but the way Tony O'Shea left the stage tonight I felt that he'll accept the PDC tour card. I reckon the 2 Dutch lads will stay in the BDO for the moment. Rumours are rampant in UK forums about BDO players signing up for the PDC Q School but I'd wait till tomorrow to see if this mass exodus as some people have described is going to happen.

Trigger13222

BERBA wrote: »

i'd beat kist , toilet darts from both of em

roll on the pdc on sky

You must be banned from the soccer forum again that your trolling here.

BERBA

Trigger13222 wrote: »

You must be banned from the soccer forum again that your trolling here.

i'll take ya seriously when you have over 100 posts made:rolleyes:

mdwexford

BERBA wrote: »

i'd beat kist , toilet darts from both of em

roll on the pdc on sky

You are so annoying.

Trigger13222

BERBA wrote: »

i'll take ya seriously when you have over 100 posts made:rolleyes:

Sure anyone could have as many posts as you if they started going around spouting rubbish.

BERBA

Trigger13222 wrote: »

Sure anyone could have as many posts as you if they started going around spouting rubbish.

i don't think its rubbish to suggest kist is rubbish , its called having an opinion. He'd be a poor mans justin pipe in the big boys league!!

AndyP

BERBA wrote: »

i don't think its rubbish to suggest kist is rubbish , its called having an opinion. He'd be a poor mans justin pipe in the big boys league!!

Well then it's my opinion that you're a shiite talking troll.

seanpq2012

I don't care how many posts you've made. I've just joined this because you annoyed me with your dumb comment. You've obviously missed your vocation if you're so good. Imagine the pressure he was under every round. He still managed 90+ averages in nearly every round. Who are the best players in the PDC? Mostly BDO products. Take Phil out but Whitlock lost in the final of the BDO and went to the PDC and lost in the final there. Barney was a serious threat to Taylor for a few years after coming over to the PDC. Gary Anderson from the BDO (who never even made the final in the PDC) whipped Lewis in the premier league final. This guy (Kist) is only 25 and it was not rubbish darts. He'd absolutely thrash you so have some respect. Otherwise, you may as well get involved and try and qualify for the BDO since it's SOO bad! Oh and who knocked out Taylor for the last two years in the PDC world champs? Webster and Chisnall both players who made their name in the BDO.

ArmaniJeanss

Jesus lads, its BERBA. His opinion is basically the most worthless on the entire site.

sc86

dartbhoy wrote: »

Christian Kist is the deserving Lakeside World champion. All week he had an average over 90 in every game which is good enough to win the BDO World title. I was hoping Tony would win but alas he was 2nd best tonight. Fair play to him for putting up a brave fight back but ultimately the mistake on the 112 checkout played on his mind and Kist steamrolled him in the final leg to win the title.

Overall the tournament mightn't have produced high scoring games but there was a number of cracking close games including the 2 semis that went the distance and the Winstanley v Norris game was also memorable for Norris's great fight back to win and of course Kist v Norris for the near 9 darter by Norris just missing double 12 to win £52,000. However the game of the tournament IMO was the Kist v Dekker 1st round game with both players averaging over 95 in a 5 set thriller. I felt sorry for Dekker that night as he would have won any other 1st round game easily with that average!

As for the future of the BDO well with Wednesday's deadline for the other 3 semi finalists to decide if they want to join the PDC and the last entries for the PDC Qualifying school been accepted tomorrow the next few days will tell a lot. Maybe it was just me but the way Tony O'Shea left the stage tonight I felt that he'll accept the PDC tour card. I reckon the 2 Dutch lads will stay in the BDO for the moment. Rumours are rampant in UK forums about BDO players signing up for the PDC Q School but I'd wait till tomorrow to see if this mass exodus as some people have described is going to happen.

whos ment to be doing q school
waites and winstanly are certainties

ArmaniJeanss

sc86 wrote: »

whos ment to be doing q school
waites and winstanly are certainties

Winstanley turned down the gift of an automatic card last year (offered to the 4 semi-finalists), so I'd be surprised if he took the much harder route this year.

sc86

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Winstanley turned down the gift of an automatic card last year (offered to the 4 semi-finalists), so I'd be surprised if he took the much harder route this year.

i wouldnt be surprised, dave chisnal done the exact same thing

dionsiseire

seanpq2012 wrote: »

I don't care how many posts you've made. I've just joined this because you annoyed me with your dumb comment. You've obviously missed your vocation if you're so good. Imagine the pressure he was under every round. He still managed 90+ averages in nearly every round. Who are the best players in the PDC? Mostly BDO products. Take Phil out but Whitlock lost in the final of the BDO and went to the PDC and lost in the final there. Barney was a serious threat to Taylor for a few years after coming over to the PDC. Gary Anderson from the BDO (who never even made the final in the PDC) whipped Lewis in the premier league final. This guy (Kist) is only 25 and it was not rubbish darts. He'd absolutely thrash you so have some respect. Otherwise, you may as well get involved and try and qualify for the BDO since it's SOO bad! Oh and who knocked out Taylor for the last two years in the PDC world champs? Webster and Chisnall both players who made their name in the BDO.

That's a silly comment

Taylor came from the BDO. Most of the top players came from the BDO. They came over because their standard was above that of the BDO.

Taylor and Bristow and all the lads back in the day broke away from the BDO because they hadn't a clue how to run the sport. Today they are showing still how they don't know how to run the sport.

I don't see how a BDO player coming to the PDC and doing well is any kind of reflection on the BDO. They left the BDO to play against the best players in the world. That is an inarguable fact, the best darts players in the world play in the PDC.

Kist with his 90 average in the PDC would struggle. Might win a first round match but once he hit's a Lewis, Anderson, Hamilton, Taylor who put in a 95 as their lowest average would stroll to a victory.

He is a world champion against a field of players minus the 128 best players in the world. It's a romantic notion calling it a world title but it's not anymore. That's like me setting up a 64 man tournament and calling it a world title because I've spanish and brazilian and american mates playing in it.

The BDO title right now is the best players from county darts whom have not yet raised their game to the standard of the professional circuit, and anyone arguing that doesn't understand how the game of darts works.

When you perform well in the BDO, show promise, the professional circuit come and offer you a card. You are a professional when you play in the PDC. You can be a good player and in the BDO, but you will never have a career in the BDO. There is not enough tournaments, TV almost unheard of. The BBC couldn't give a **** about the tournament and even this year split coverage with ESPN rather than show a better interest in it.

The Winmau boards have been shown up this year. Bounce outs are bounce outs but so many is just unbelievable. It nearly cost O'Shea a final appearance. We can draw comparisons with the PDC for the air con issue but the PDC had it then sorted it. It happened in both semi finals which is unbelievable.

End of the day. The BDO is a feeder entity for the PDC. It controls the county circuits which means that the younger british players come up through the BDO system. How people don't get that almost all the good young english players come up through the BDO, make their name in the worlds and then jump to the PDC if their standard is good enough.

I would honestly recommend Kist stay another year in the BDO. Defend his title, up his game. Become more consistent and then jump over to the PDC with the game to challenge. He's a young lad and has time on his side.

If O'Shea jumps he is silly, don't get me wrong I'd love to see him, but he hasn't the energy for the longer games, his game jumps from PDC standard to BDO standard randomly per set. He is a good player but over multiple sets inconsistent.

With the ever weakening field in the BDO, as less and less prestigious it is to win the BDO title, I'd still like to see O'Shea nab one just to have it on his CV as "World Champion".

Again it comes back to one thing.

If it was just about quality and money and prizes and telly, all Irish soccer fans would watch just the CL, and at that only Barca or Real or maybe ManU.

Yet if the teams that never had a chance of winning the CL met on telly tomorrow, your Villas, Leeds, Spurs etc, millions would still tune in. Even though they wouldn't be near the top 10 in Europe.

seanpq2012

How is it a silly comment? You're the one making no sense, dionsiseire. Taylor came over yonks ago. That's not what I'm talking about. You said "I don't see how a BDO player coming to the PDC and doing well is any kind of reflection on the BDO". That's a silly comment. Ah dohh!! - that's where they have honed their skills. Do you think they moved over to the PDC and learnt a new way of playing darts in weeks? Come on man - that's just crazy! My argument is that recent players that have come over like Whitlock, Chisnall, Webster, Barney, VAn De Voort and Anderson even Stompe have all done pretty well and have not looked out of their depth. The difference in standard ain't really there. That's a fad. Take Taylor at his best out of it and plenty of the BDO players could beat plenty of the top PDC players. You talk of Kist's poor 90 average. That's the same as Andy Hamilton's average in the PDC final. Was Lewis basically just beating a BDO player then? This was Kist's first pro final and he got very nervous in sets 9, 10 and 11 yet still averaged over 90. That's sensational. If he had killed it off earlier as an experienced pro would probably have done, where would his average be? Adrian Lewis and perhaps Wade are really the only top PDC players. The real difference is that the BBC production quality, commentators and presenters are really poor and there is more money in the PDC but the top BDO boys have shown they can mix it with the top PDC boys already. The stats make my point for me. If the PDC was so great, they would not keep poaching BDO players. Simples.

Fits Morris

I find that the views of many here have been quite anti-BDO. Certainly there is some constructive criticism that can be levelled at the administrators, but I've hugely enjoyed the tournament. I grew up watching Lakeside and I love how it hasn't sold out. The PDC comes across as very "tabloid" to me whereas the BDO is more like a broadsheet. Here's some interesting views on a thread on another forum that I stumbled across: http://www.thefreekick.com/board/topic/15317-2012-bdo-world-darts-championships/ Some clearly over the top pro and anti-BDO views but some considered opinions on the two different organisations there too.

seanpq2012

@Fits Morris. You're absolutely right on that. To put the record straight further with Dionsiseire. Taylor did not move because of the standard. Basically, he moved at the inception of the PDC because he, and others, wanted more dough. I disagree with you (Dionsiseire) about the BDO being made up of average county standard players. You can twist it around and make stats work for you if you want. I'll give you more stats. Scott Waites won the Grand slam of darts (Big televised event co-sanctioned by the BDO and PDC) a couple of years back and in the final, he basically made a show of James Wade. Wade is considered a superstar in the PDC while Waites has not even got close to winning the BDO world title and he is, I suppose, one of those "county standard" players not good enough for the pro circuit. What garbage! I recommend you go and find some footage of that Waites v Wade match and see what an average "county player" can do to a "top pro player". Poor Wade could not do anything about it. It's really poor for you to label guys like Martin Adams, O' Shea, Fitton, Kist and many others "county players". That is basically what you are saying. The BDO title that Martin Adams has won three times is just a preparation school for novice darters apparently? Adams, in a best of 13 final in 2010 vs Chisnall averaged 95. Lewis averaged only 93 in this year's final but then I suppose Lewis is a pro and Adams a journeyman county standard player. Very disrespectful to some very talented people. Don't blame quality players just because the BBC are hopeless at presenting sport and perhaps the BDO are a poorly run organisation. The players are no different in standard - it's just the BBC and the BDO who do not do right by them. I get sick of this "BDO belittling" from the likes of Harrington, Bristow and Chris Mason who constantly go on about this huge gap in standard which actually does not exist.

Samich

Hankey is gone to the PDC.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/darts/9016240/Ted-Hankeys-switch-from-BDO-to-PDC-is-just-the-latest-in-a-long-line-of-defections-in-darts-cold-war.html

dionsiseire

seanpq2012 wrote: »

@Fits Morris. You're absolutely right on that. To put the record straight further with Dionsiseire. Taylor did not move because of the standard. Basically, he moved at the inception of the PDC because he, and others, wanted more dough. I disagree with you (Dionsiseire) about the BDO being made up of average county standard players. You can twist it around and make stats work for you if you want. I'll give you more stats. Scott Waites won the Grand slam of darts (Big televised event co-sanctioned by the BDO and PDC) a couple of years back and in the final, he basically made a show of James Wade. Wade is considered a superstar in the PDC while Waites has not even got close to winning the BDO world title and he is, I suppose, one of those "county standard" players not good enough for the pro circuit. What garbage! I recommend you go and find some footage of that Waites v Wade match and see what an average "county player" can do to a "top pro player". Poor Wade could not do anything about it. It's really poor for you to label guys like Martin Adams, O' Shea, Fitton, Kist and many others "county players". That is basically what you are saying. The BDO title that Martin Adams has won three times is just a preparation school for novice darters apparently? Adams, in a best of 13 final in 2010 vs Chisnall averaged 95. Lewis averaged only 93 in this year's final but then I suppose Lewis is a pro and Adams a journeyman county standard player. Very disrespectful to some very talented people. Don't blame quality players just because the BBC are hopeless at presenting sport and perhaps the BDO are a poorly run organisation. The players are no different in standard - it's just the BBC and the BDO who do not do right by them. I get sick of this "BDO belittling" from the likes of Harrington, Bristow and Chris Mason who constantly go on about this huge gap in standard which actually does not exist.

Both your comments start with a fundamental lack of understanding of the game.

To structure of darts in england is PURE BDO. It starts in pub teams onto county super league which leads to BDO rank ranking competitions.

EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IN ENGLAND HAS STARTED OUT BDO.

They are not poaching, they are offering these players who show the potential to be top players in the game a chance to earn the kind of money which could sustain a PROFESSIONAL PLAYER.

Next thing. Average comparing, you cannot compare one game of darts with another game of darts. That is plain stupid. Different opponents, different pressures, different crowds. It's not a measurable stat.

If you look at Lewis's average and Hamiltons average across the ENTIRE World Championship you'll find their averages are BOTH closer to 100. for an ENTIRE tournament.

KIST is 90 ish for the tournament. 91 I think. He is a good player. He is 25 and has the potential to go far in the game. He is FAR from world champion standard.

Wade lost to Waites in ONE game. Furthermore Wade was annihilating Waites until he had some form of breakdown. It was a very strange one off game. Wade has 5 or 6 Giant TV titles. How many does Waites have. Are you going to continually compare one game of darts to another. Wade is a superstar. He averages 100 for fun and can reel off 106-110 on a good day. Do you think Waites could manage that standard. Actually can you prove in any one game Waites has come close to 106 in any game.

You're talking absolute pony, don't understand the fundamentals of how darts is run in England and how long ago Taylor came over to PDC is irrelevant. He came from BDO to try make a professional career out of the sport of Darts. That involves making more money. The PDC has gone on to make their entire years prize money to over 5 million.

As the prize money grows, the number of players who can play Darts full time increases. The PDC each year works towards making the entire circuit lucrative enough to support it's entire roster. Many of the current PDC players have to do exhibitions to stay full time but you cannot do BDO full time. It is not a professional option. It's not viable.

There has been over the years quality players in the BDO. As I have continually said, the BDO is the ground level of darts in england. These players get better year on year until playing at Lakeside and draw attention to themselves. Right now there is talk that Winstanley and Waites have applied for Q-School. O'Shea, Kist, Hankey and Harms have been offered PDC tour cards.

Even they know and accept that they must try and compete in the PDC to earn a crust.

80-90% of the current PDC players are prior BDO players with the exceptions being (as far as I am aware) the Irish players and the Spanish players. The odd english player has never played the BDO world championships but will have competed at BDO ranking tournaments.

This is what makes your statement silly. Almost all the PDC players were previously BDO players. So therefore you cannot say the PDC are mostly BDO products because they are ALL BDO products. Any player that has progressed through the BDO controlled pub-super league-ranking tournament system HAS to have been BDO.

Here are the only important facts

Every year BDO players leave and go to the PDC. This is as much to do with money as it is to do with proving you can be the best in a top class field. The BDO field is no top class.

Every year the PDC coverage is consistent and top quality. Every year the BDO gets less and less support from BBC and have to bring in ESPN just to get full coverage of it's event. This is supposedly the "World Championship" and they can't get one channel to agree to show it all.

The PDC's top players were all once BDO. This is a fact, mostly because of it was the only way to move forward in the game from the grass root levels. However without financial support from the BDO, it only makes sense to move to the PDC. You cannot be top class and just stay in the BDO unless you have absolutely no ambition. Winning the BDO title will ALWAYS lead to people saying "Ah but you didn't play against the worlds best".

End of the day. The BDO field is full of very good darts players who are just above pub level. There is nobody in the BDO field I would feel could reel off anything like a 105 average. With O'Shea, Waites, Winstanley, Hankey all looking to leave what class is there really in the field now?

There has been cause to defend the BDO in previous year with certain decent players still remaining. It's getting very very very sparse now. It's enjoyable to watch by darts fans because darts fans enjoy watching darts but then I enjoy watching the full darts entertainment down at the Irish players championship.

I'm sure the standard at lakeside is above that of the Irish players championship, that doesn't stop making the IPC entertaining (as I've said in far earlier posts close matches regardless of average can be compelling viewing). It does not make it top quality darts. The best darts in the world are being thrown with alarming regularity in the PDC. The PDC 9 darter pot is constantly resetting. In the BDO it's up at 52k because nobody hits them.

I can't be much clearer than this. If I've not addressed one of your points i'll happily revisit but I hope I've explained myself a bit clearer this time.

seanpq2012

All that stuff about the BDO producing the players at grass root level - I know all that. Don't patronize me. I watch both events. I know both events. The PDC has more glamour and so forth plus it has Phil Taylor who is obviously still better than Adrian Lewis. He is their trump card. They have more televised events and players earn more money. However, the BDO is a recognized darts circuit with it's own circuit. Stop talking this crap about the PDC only being capable of sustaining pro players. O' Shea has never won a major yet playing in the BDO has allowed him to quit his job as a greenkeeper quite some years back. The same applies to lots of BDO players who are professionals. They make money coz they win events during the year plus they have sponsorship and endorsement deals. They CAN earn a crust because O' Shea is a professional darts player and that is his job. If he could not earn a crust in the BDO, why wait until 50 to move? It's the same in both organisations, if you're way down the rankings, you make sod all. Guys like Taylor, Lewis and so forth make a lot of money but so do the likes of Adams, O' Shea and even Hankey must have too. He is now 43! If that was not the case, Adams and co. would have joined the PDC long ago because you know they have the equivalent talent of Whitlock, Anderson and Webster, for example. Also, you said the BDO field is poor but the PDC field is not. That's just wrong too.The PDC field is better but there are plenty of poor dart players in the early rounds of the PDC just as in the BDO. I get it. You don't like the BDO. I guess you like lining Rupert Murdoch's pockets but don't come on and start giving it alll the usual "oh, Sky's darts is way better..la da da...". BDO Player's don't go there to improve their game. They are already great players but they want more money and sky is all about money. On the other hand, the Lakeside is about real darts, the home of darts. It's birthplace. Sky can do what they want but unless the BDO goes, the lakeside will remain the mecca in darts because you cannot change history and darts started on the BBC. The BDO is it's home. The PDC may have Taylor for a few more years but the BDO owns the soul of darts. Even if it was way worse in quality - which it ain't - it would still have more prestige than Rupert Murdoch's show.

dionsiseire

Yawn, I have views that don't support the BDO so I must be a hater, so I must be a fanboy of the PDC.

I have levelled facts at you. Prove to me that O'Shea does not have a day job.

Show me the money he has earned this year as a member of the BDO excluding the world championship

Why would you not move over well, family reasons, not believing you could cut it on the PDC circuit and earn enough to quit your day job, too comfortable.

"I guess you like lining Rupert Murdochs pockets"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
So if I watch sports on sky sports I'm somehow only into the money side of the game, that my interests include lining the pockets of the rich. Give me a break that's the most pathetic point to back up your arguments I've seen. I watch many sports, lots of them only broadcast on Sky Sports. I do not exclusively line the pockets of Murdoch for Sky's darts, I watch plenty of sports on Sky as they have almost a monopoly.

Blah blah blah, Darting mecca, yawn. If Lakeside was so prestigious and the BDO was the real deal the biggest names and best players would all be playing in it.

The aren't

P.S. Adams did join the PDC before, long long ago.

Also please for the love of god if you are going to continue this argument figure out how to use the enter button and space out your replies, they are as terminal to read as Olly Crofts business skills.