BDO Lakeside 2012

minty16

I cant believe somebody on here said that only Wolfie would get into the top 128 in the world if Hankey et all switched. That is laughable and I find it hard to believe you follow darts or play darts. Then you went down to 90 but once again you are very wrong. The PDC is better than the BDO, but my god it's not that much better. Your point is just about valid for the top 16 in the world never mind 128! The proof of the pudding is that almost everytime a decent BDO player goes to the PDC they end up in the top 16 . This has never stopped since the split. Even when the BDO was supposedly at its knees after Barney left, quality PDC players like Anderson as recently as 2009 I think? have come. The BDO will continue to produce the cream of the crop, and a comment suggesting that they wouldnt have a player in the top 128 is ridiculous because outside of the top 8/16 they have ALL the best players.

dionsiseire

Your wrong minty, your just blinded by BDO goggles

The BDO owns the county darts scene, all the darts players come through the BDO. The BDO producing players who go on to do well in the PDC is not a valid point. All the players who are doing well in the PDC came from the BDO.

Seriously do we have to rehash this again.

There is a massive exodus from the BDO this year, the organisation is on it's knee's just as Martin Adams takes over which as chairman he really should excuse himself from competition.

The top players in the PDC are definitely better, if they weren't as good they wouldn't have cards for the tour. The players through the top 64 are most definitely better than the remainder of the BDO.

64-90, you can debate but I think they would be close matches. Again your attributing the 128 to me when I subsequently said top 90. I stand by top 90 are as good or better than anything left in the BDO if Hankey, Kist, Dekker, O'Shea et al leave which is looking more and more likely.

Add on to that, PDC players play infront of bigger rowdier crowds and still produce unbelievable averages and some of the stats that come in from the floor tournaments about some of these players between 64-90 that put in sterling performances only to be bested by a 110 average from a Taylor or Anderson.

The darts in PDC are better. It's a fact. The BDO is enjoyable as a watch of darts once a year but it is not near in quality anymore.

scudzilla

It's similar to Football.

The Premiership (PDC) has the best players compared to The Championship (BDO), Sure, you will get some good games in the championship, but of a quality a lot lower than the premier league.

If a player plays well consistently he'll end up in the premiership soon enough, and then more will fill his place in the championship.

minty16

How can you say with such confidence that (firstly 128 then 90 and now) 64 players are much better? You dont know this. You didn't know how good Webster was before he burst onto the scene around 06, who is to say there is not another Webster in the BDO ranks ? You didnt know how good Kist was before he won on Sunday. There is plenty of talent still in the BDO. Old Silverback would give the likes of Part, Baxter, Lloyd or Caven a game. These are top 20 PDC players. Think about it. Scott Waites would beat 3 out of 4 on a given day. Harms, Dekker and Kist are quality dart players. Now don't get me wrong, if your looking at Hankey/Winstanley and maybe others leaving then I agree that the BDO is going to be left in a bad state, but in my opinion at least for the next couple of years who is to say they wont keep producing talent. You say I have BDO goggles, but the extremity of your statement shows that you are the only one with goggles on! Perhaps even SKY 3D ones!

dionsiseire

scudzilla wrote: »

It's similar to Football.

The Premiership (PDC) has the best players compared to The Championship (BDO), Sure, you will get some good games in the championship, but of a quality a lot lower than the premier league.

If a player plays well consistently he'll end up in the premiership soon enough, and then more will fill his place in the championship.

Genuinely couldn't have put it better. Fantastic analogy

minty16

dionsiseire wrote: »

Genuinely couldn't have put it better. Fantastic analogy

Terrible analogy actually because everybody in the Championship wants to be in the Premier League. A better one perhaps would be to compare it to Serie A.

dionsiseire

minty16 wrote: »

How can you say with such confidence that (firstly 128 then 90 and now) 64 players are much better? You dont know this. You didn't know how good Webster was before he burst onto the scene around 06, who is to say there is not another Webster in the BDO ranks ? You didnt know how good Kist was before he won on Sunday. There is plenty of talent still in the BDO. Old Silverback would give the likes of Part, Baxter, Lloyd or Caven a game. These are top 20 PDC players. Think about it. Scott Waites would beat 3 out of 4 on a given day. Harms, Dekker and Kist are quality dart players. Now don't get me wrong, if your looking at Hankey/Winstanley and maybe others leaving then I agree that the BDO is going to be left in a bad state, but in my opinion at least for the next couple of years who is to say they wont keep producing talent. You say I have BDO goggles, but the extremity of your statement shows that you are the only one with goggles on! Perhaps even SKY 3D ones!

Dude again, you're not reading my posts,

I have already said, that the players you are mentioning are looking to leave the BDO and join the PDC. These are the current players that could compete.

I have said EXCLUDING these players, the BDO doesn't have anyone bar Adams.

Please seriously, read my posts, ACTUALLY read what I'm saying, I seem to be going around in circles re-explaining my points time after time.

dionsiseire

minty16 wrote: »

Terrible analogy actually because everybody in the Championship wants to be in the Premier League. A better one perhaps would be to compare it to Serie A.

Serie A is a bit kind isn't it. Serie A players would make similar money to Premiership, the top teams in Serie can compete on the champions league stage against the other best teams in the world. You can't do that in the BDO. Out of a field of 64 starting out the BDO. Maybe 10 players were worth their salt. They are all looking to move to the big time now.

Championship is ample analogy. There will be some good games, some tighly contested affairs, some individual performances that make you think, "Hey he could be useful at the top level". Players will not earn on the same par as premiership players but consistent good performances could earn them that lucrative contract in the big boy league.

abouttobebanned

Id go a lot further with an analogy and say that's it's like league of ireland and english premiership. Ultimately every player in the league of ireland, bar a small, aging minority, wants to play in the premiership, but only a handful of them will ever be good enough.

There are some bad premiership players of course but so many stars and so much coverage.

The quality players in the BDO have to wait til they win on TV before there is talk of a switch to the PDC and first chance they get...they're gone.

minty16

I think it's unlikely that more than Hankey and Winstanley will leave at this stage of the players you mentioned. Even at this, You probably would have said the same many times over the last ten years when big names left the BDO. You surely realise that 128 players was a major stretch of the imagination and this is what initially grabbed my attention. Even at that, Robbo, Green, Montgomery , Fitton etc would walk into the top 64 as John Henderson a BDO 'journeyman' as you would probably call him did last year. Never mind the top 128, he is comfortably inside the 50 I would imagine.

minty16

dionsiseire wrote: »

Serie A is a bit kind isn't it. Serie A players would make similar money to Premiership, the top teams in Serie can compete on the champions league stage against the other best teams in the world. You can't do that in the BDO. Out of a field of 64 starting out the BDO. Maybe 10 players were worth their salt. They are all looking to move to the big time now.

Championship is ample analogy. There will be some good games, some tighly contested affairs, some individual performances that make you think, "Hey he could be useful at the top level". Players will not earn on the same par as premiership players but consistent good performances could earn them that lucrative contract in the big boy league.

I would say the Premiership is a lot better than Serie A. The top teams in Serie A compete with the top teams from England in the Champions League and Europa league. Ac Milan have won champions leagues in recent enough times as have Scott Waites and Gary Anderson won the GSOD while playing for the BDO. To say Championship is ridiculous because not one championship team would be good enough to win say, the Champions league, where as BDO players have continued to prove over the last few years that they can regularly beat PDC players.

Roadend

minty16 wrote: »

I would say the Premiership is a lot better than Serie A. The top teams in Serie A compete with the top teams from England in the Champions League and Europa league. Ac Milan have won champions leagues in recent enough times as have Scott Waites and Gary Anderson won the GSOD while playing for the BDO. To say Championship is ridiculous because not one championship team would be good enough to win say, the Champions league, where as BDO players have continued to prove over the last few years that they can regularly beat PDC players.

Anderson was beaten in the final of the GSOD by Taylor

abouttobebanned

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Id go a lot further with an analogy and say that's it's like league of ireland and english premiership. Ultimately every player in the league of ireland, bar a small, aging minority, wants to play in the premiership, but only a handful of them will ever be good enough.

There are some bad premiership players of course but so many stars and so much coverage.

Possibly, but the fans of the Premiership don't usually keep on and on at fans of League of Ireland football saying "we watch the good stuff, you watch crap, look at the average number of goals scored, average number of goals, that's very important there, more average goals are scored now than in the World Cup of 1970 so the football now is better, look at the goals averages over the past 20 years, the goals average is better so we watch better football, what do you think of the goals scored averages, here is a table of goals scored which proves that we watch better football"...;)

Kingp35

Deleted User wrote: »

Possibly, but the fans of the Premiership don't usually keep on and on at fans of League of Ireland football saying "we watch the good stuff, you watch crap, look at the average number of goals scored, average number of goals, that's very important there, more average goals are scored now than in the World Cup of 1970 so the football now is better, look at the goals averages over the past 20 years, the goals average is better so we watch better football, what do you think of the goals scored averages, here is a table of goals scored which proves that we watch better football"...;)

Conor that's one of the silliest posts I have read in this thread. Disregarding the bit about average goals scored etc because that's just utter rubbish, fans of the Premiership in this country are constantly saying that League of Ireland is rubbish because of the standard of football, just look athe amount of people going to league of Ireland matches compared to travelling to England for the Premiership. They do that because the standard is better and it's the top level.

The PDC is the top level of darts, anyone who disputes that needs their head examined.

Kingp35

Kingp35 wrote: »

They do that because the standard is better and it's the top level.

I'm afraid that is nonsense. The top level bit anyway.

Fans from here travel in their thousands to watch clubs like Spurs and Liverpool and Celtic. Celtic! Top level? Yer having a laugh. You have a Leeds badge in your signature, they are not even top level in that country, so you must understand how paper thin the "top level" claim is. It is a justification that does not stand up to scrutiny.

If Irish soccer supporters wanted to watch the top level, obviously, they would stay at home and watch Barca.

But I agree they do have this misguided belief that they are watching the best football when they go to see Celtic v Dumbarton, and they do tend to crow about it despite the patent stupidity of it. And I agree that some do then try to force their opinions on others. But in general you do not see fans of ManU on sites for Cork City FC saying "we're better...average goals...better...bigger...goals..."

johnny_cash

I can't believe you guys are going over all this crap again The pdc is the better organisation and the best players in the world will want to play in it because they can make more money.The overall standard of the pdc is better but to say the top players in the bdo wouldn't make it in the pdc is just laughable.The players that have switched in the past haven't done to bad and neither will hankey or waites.The bdo will still continue to produce some great players as there is always somebody knew coming through waiting to get their chance.

Kingp35

Deleted User wrote: »

But in general you do not see fans of ManU on sites for Cork City FC saying "we're better...average goals...better...bigger...goals..."

you're still going on about this. it doesn't make any sense at all, darts is a game based on stats, averages and percentages, football isn't so stop trying to relate the two through stats.

As for top level, the premiership is the top level of football, as is celtic with reference to scotland. Are you suggesting that people should only watch Barca because they are the best? the top level encompasses a variety of leagues and teams. Just like people don't only watch phil taylor play darts because teh top level isb't just phil taylor, it's a numbe rof players. The PDC is the top level of darts. you do understand the term "level" don't you?

It's a very simple concept to understand and if you can't even grasp that then there is no point in having a proper debate with you.

dionsiseire

I'm hearing that Waites has been offered a card on the PDC tour based on the GSOD earning and has accepted.

Kingp35

Kingp35 wrote: »

The PDC is the top level of darts. you do understand the term "level" don't you?

It's a very simple concept to understand and if you can't even grasp that then there is no point in having a proper debate with you.

With due respect, you might do well to remember your own words...

Kingp35 wrote: »

Cut out the ridiculous trolling and stop looking for a rise out of people.

I have a different opinion to you. That does not entitle you to make posts questioning my intelligence. As site moderator I would have thought you should be able to tolerate people with different opinions on the whole BDO/PDC thing.

If you dislike the analogy, attack the post, but leave me as the the poster out of it. I am aware of what the word "level" means (it's why I can say Leeds and Barca are on very different "levels") and I also understand the phrase "relax, it's only a game".

Will I Amnt

Conor74 wrote: »

I would have thought you should be able to tolerate people with different opinions on the whole BDO/PDC thing.

It's frustrating to hear so many people of the opinion there's not much difference between the 2.
It's not even an opinion,it's fact,it's not even up for debate.

Kingp35

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a different opinion to you. That does not entitle you to make posts questioning my intelligence. As site moderator I would have thought you should be able to tolerate people with different opinions on the whole BDO/PDC thing.

If you dislike the analogy, attack the post, but leave me as the the poster out of it. I am aware of what the word "level" means (it's why I can say Leeds and Barca are on very different "levels") and I also understand the phrase "relax, it's only a game".

First of all why did you quote a post of mine that wasn't directed at you but at someone else who was quite clearly trolling.

Secondly I did attack your post because to be honest it's quite easy to attack. Whether I am a mod or not is completely irrelevant, you just can't seem to fatham that the PDC is streets ahead of the BDO. I mean it's not even close, the facts speak for themselves.

You seem to think that everyone on this site are avid PDC fanboys or something. I can guarantee you that we're not, most of us can enjoy a good darts match whether it be PDC or BDO. That's not the issue, both organisations are equally likely to produce an entertaining game. The issue is that you just down right refuse to accept the blatantly obvious fact that the PDC is the top level in darts and the BDO is the second level. I mean come on, anybody who follows darts should clearly be able to see that and I can't understand why we are having a debate on this at all!

cambo2008

cambo2008 wrote: »

It's frustrating to hear so many people of the opinion there's not much difference between the 2.
It's not even an opinion,it's fact,it's not even up for debate.

Oh there are differences.

In the PDC, many spectators get too drunk and boo their world champion.

No staring at averages and stats make that acceptable or tolerable.

Kingp35

Kingp35 wrote: »

The issue is that you just down right refuse to accept the blatantly obvious fact that the PDC is the top level in darts and the BDO is the second level.

Could you quote a post where I suggested that?

I accept that they are different, I accept that the PDC averages are higher.

If you say I didn't, perhaps you might refer to a specific post.

As for quoting the other post, with due respect I thought you were setting out a standard for the board. Are you suggesting you were only telling one poster about the evils of trolling? And are you suggesting that "do you understand simple English" is a valid point on a darts site and was attacking my post and not me?

Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.

You were trolling and being abusive. Hey, I'll get over it, I won't cry myself to sleep. But don't try and deny the contents of your own posts.

Kingp35

Deleted User wrote: »

You were trolling and being abusive. Hey, I'll get over it, I won't cry myself to sleep. But don't try and deny the contents of your own posts.

Eh you do understand the term trolling don't you? You seem to have become very defensive. And nowhere were my posts "abusive". But of course if you feel otherwise feel free to take it up with the category mod.

Kingp35

Kingp35 wrote: »

Eh you do understand the term trolling don't you? You seem to have become very defensive. And nowhere were my posts "abusive". But of course if you feel otherwise feel free to take it up with the category mod.

Yeah. I'm all defensive. As I said earlier, suuuuuuuuuuuure.

You seem intent on getting some reaction. That's trolling. Posts like "do you understand the word level", followed by "do you understand the word trolling" are designed to get a rise. The very thing you condemned earlier. Meh.

I note you ignored my request to quote a post where I made the claim you ascribed to me. Trolling and making up stuff. Yes indeed.

I have no intention of referring this to any category mod. As I said above I do understand the phrase "relax, it's only a game". You know you can still put up your hands and admit your posts were ill judged, it's no biggie.

Kingp35

Ah come on now, you know perfectly well what trolling is and I certaionly wasn't doing it.

Again if you have a problem take it up with the cat mod. Stop the backseat modding which is a bannable offence in itself. report a post if you have a problem, do not post about it in the thread.

I don't want to lock the thread because it has sparked some good debate but it's heading in that direction.

EDIT On second thoughts I am locking this thread. I will start a fresh thread for the BDO v PDC debate.