Tesco Maynooth

keithclancy

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Considering a Tesla is just a Elise a Lotus Elise would be a better comparision. Accoring to that site a Elise is 34,000 that compared to 84,000 so that leaves 50k for of petrol,tax,repairs. Tesla looks very expensive in that case!

Lotus Elise starts at 46,314 in the Netherlands.
http://www.autowereld.com/autonieuws/detail.asp?artikel=9575

And a Roadster is not an Elise, there is roughly a 6 percent overlap in parts between the two.

Mr Benevolent

JJJJNR wrote: »

They should scrap the whole thing now, give the people who purchased EV's their money back, the country is fcked (HSE, Edu) and we are still rolling out EV infra LOL

That's going a bit too far. We need EV infrastructure, otherwise none will ever be sold here.

b318isp

pajo1981 wrote: »

Even if it wasn't limited, you would also need to assume that either the power function is flat (which it isn't), or that the gearing is such that peak power and top speed coincide (which they don't)- in fact peak power out arrives at about 35MPH.

The leaf isn't using anything like max power at legal motorway speed/top speed (limited or unlimited), and to say that it's not suited to motor drive is just plain wrong.

Not quite sure what you are saying, but the power demand is proportional to the square of speed. The faster you wish to go, the more power is consumed. At a car's top speed, the engine will be producing close to its most power.

Also power consumed is related to the load applied (i.e. as in braked horse power). A 100 Watt amplifier doesn't provide 100W at all times, an engine doesn't always provide (say) 100bhp at 3000rpm, a 90Amp alternator doesn't always produce 90Amps.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

How does that relate to using public charging points, for free, at peak time electricty rates? You said "in relation to..." and then posted something completely NOT related to what you claimed.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

But looking at the history of the automobile, not many Joe soaps could afford the first ones either. Eventually the few that could buy, helped improve design and drive down cost.QUOTE]

The invention of product line manufacturing was the huge cost reducer in ICE cars. There is no similar innovation to reduce the cost of EVs - the parts which can be cheap already ARE cheap due to ICEs

It's called putting it into perspective The SEAI have done studies that show we could power 250K EV's without the need for extra power generation. This is because most EV owners charge predominantly at night time. We're paying for electricity to be generated at night time that isn't being used, completely wasted energy.

You seemed upset at 45+ Leaf owners maybe taking potentially up to 4 euros worth of electricity if they plug their car into a public charge point for 7 to 8 hours during the day time (I'm averaging once or twice per month on public charge points). Which I'll remind you is only supposed to be free until the middle of 2012. There is that cost versus the vast amounts of energy wasted at night time because civilisation doesn't go to sleep.

Perspective

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's called putting it into perspective The SEAI have done studies that show we could power 250K EV's without the need for extra power generation. This is because most EV owners charge predominantly at night time. We're paying for electricity to be generated at night time that isn't being used, completely wasted energy.

And then, when those users need extra charges to make their vehicles actually practical during the day we need to import it over the Interconnector...

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You seemed upset at 45+ Leaf owners maybe taking potentially up to 4 euros worth of electricity if they plug their car into a public charge point for 7 to 8 hours during the day time (I'm averaging once or twice per month on public charge points). Which I'll remind you is only supposed to be free until the middle of 2012. There is that cost versus the vast amounts of energy wasted at night time because civilisation doesn't go to sleep.

I'm more upset with the significantly larger amount of money throw on providing infrastructure for 45 people, including the charge point you got put on your house for free.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Perspective

You lack it

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

.............. Eventually the few that could buy, helped improve design and drive down cost. ..............

But folks wanted them back then, most folk don't want a Leaf or anything like it.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

The invention of product line manufacturing was the huge cost reducer in ICE cars. There is no similar innovation to reduce the cost of EVs - the parts which can be cheap already ARE cheap due to ICEs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_production

I think you'll agree we're not at this stage for automobile batteries.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/26/nissan-ceo-ghosn-breaks-ground-for-lithium-ion-battery-plant/

This morning Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn was in Smyrna, Tennessee to break ground for the company's first lithium ion battery plant outside of Japan. The factory, adjacent to Nissan's existing vehicle assembly complex there, will have a capacity for 200,000 battery packs annually after it starts production in 2012.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

And then, when those users need extra charges to make their vehicles actually practical during the day we need to import it over the Interconnector...



I'm more upset with the significantly larger amount of money throw on providing infrastructure for 45 people, including the charge point you got put on your house for free.



You lack it

You're upset about EV's, I've gathered that from your posts

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_production

I think you'll agree we're not at this stage for automobile batteries.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/26/nissan-ceo-ghosn-breaks-ground-for-lithium-ion-battery-plant/

We are long past the point of mass production for lithium batteries. There is no improvement, only a worsening, to be made in the cost of the raw materials which compose the majority of the price!

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You're upset about EV's, I've gathered that from your posts

I'm upset that the Green Party committed us to wasting money on their toys and that our new govt. hasn't put them back in the box. Hopefully they will.

Sesshoumaru

RoverJames wrote: »

But folks wanted them back then, most folk don't want a Leaf or anything like it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056349654

These guys did some interesting podcasts. Your post reminded me about a little interesting nugget in one of the first episodes. There were a variety of power systems for the first cars, including EV and petrol. I remember a historian in the show saying some people didn't want to switch from EV to petrol because they found changing gears very annoying. No doubt those ancient cars were probably not as easy as modern cars to change gears in and of course we have automatics now. Interestingly the Leaf still like early EV's has only one forward gear, so still smoother than an automatic with gears.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

We are long past the point of mass production for lithium batteries. There is no improvement, only a worsening, to be made in the cost of the raw materials which compose the majority of the price!



I'm upset that the Green Party committed us to wasting money on their toys and that our new govt. hasn't put them back in the box. Hopefully they will.

You're wrong of course and I've previously proven you wrong on numerous threads, so no need for me to go there again. I've pointed out to you before, you rarely if ever provide evidence to support your view point. Everyone is just supposed to take what you say as fact.

What I'm more interested in knowing is how you propose a small island nation secure its energy supply? Do you think cheaper oil is here for the foreseeable future? If so where will we get ours from? How will we protect ourselves from supply shocks from unreliable suppliers? Middle East war, a belligerent Russia / Argentina and increasing demand from BRIC countries for limited oil supplies?

If it's not going to stay cheaper for the foreseeable future, what's your alternative to electricity and the existing infrastructure we have to distribute it?

Do you only know how to say no? or have you got any solutions to our energy issues? I'm genuinely very curious to know what your opinion on this is.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You're wrong of course and I've previously proven you wrong on numerous threads, so no need for me to go there again. I've pointed out to you before, you rarely if ever provide evidence to support your view point. Everyone is just supposed to take what you say as fact.

You've never proven me wrong. You cry "opinion" and nothing more, and cling for hope to impossible improvements in cost and battery tech, citing "investments" that are a fraction of what has already been spent and expecting 100 years of improvements to be matched on a tiny subset of the product in a few years.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

What I'm more interested in knowing is how you propose a small island nation secure its energy supply? Do you think cheaper oil is here for the foreseeable future? If so where will we get ours from? How will we protect ourselves from supply shocks from unreliable suppliers? Middle East war, a belligerent Russia / Argentina and increasing demand from BRIC countries for limited oil supplies?

If it's not going to stay cheaper for the foreseeable future, what's your alternative to electricity and the existing infrastructure we have to distribute it?

Do you only know how to say no? or have you got any solutions to our energy issues? I'm genuinely very curious to know what your opinion on this is.

Surely its you, as someone using an EV who expects there to be electricity easily available once fossil fuels run low, who needs to answer that?

Any of those scenarios are going to leave you just as grounded as an ICE driver. If you think that driving EVs is going to "secure our energy supply" you're more delusional than the Green Party were when they subsidised your car.

But you see I like cars, I don't see the appeal of the Leaf at all
I have an automatic at the moment, I'll happily drive a manual again.

MugMugs

RoverJames wrote: »

But you see I like cars, I don't see the appeal of the Leaf at all
I have an automatic at the moment, I'll happily drive a manual again.

I remember when the TDI first came out, an avid petrol head laughed at me when I got my Passat.

We went for a spin and he called me all sorts of names unable to accept that a Diesel actually had a bit of Oomph....

I never thought that a Diesel would have a good bit of kick.... But they do now.

Who's to say that the Leaf v3.4 won't be able to crap all over a 1.8 / 1.9 Petrol equivelant at some stage ?

keithclancy

RoverJames wrote: »

But you see I like cars, I don't see the appeal of the Leaf at all
I have an automatic at the moment, I'll happily drive a manual again.

Different strokes for different folks I guess, similarly Petrol heads would balk at the idea of getting a Diesel.

Diesel lovers hate the idea of having a low mpg petrol.

Irish people hate the idea of getting an Estate over a saloon, whereas here Estates are really popular.

Electric car people love the idea of having a car they can fuel up from the wall at home.

As electric cars go, the Leaf is a pretty good affordable electric, especially if you live in a city.

Anyways, a Tesla is FASTER than an Elise .. just I can't afford it, either of them actually!

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

You've never proven me wrong. You cry "opinion" and nothing more, and cling for hope to impossible improvements in cost and battery tech, citing "investments" that are a fraction of what has already been spent and expecting 100 years of improvements to be matched on a tiny subset of the product in a few years.



Surely its you, as someone using an EV who expects there to be electricity easily available once fossil fuels run low, who needs to answer that?

Any of those scenarios are going to leave you just as grounded as an ICE driver. If you think that driving EVs is going to "secure our energy supply" you're more delusional than the Green Party were when they subsidised your car.

I call it your opinion because you fail to back up your strongly held beliefs with evidence. You do state those beliefs with what appears to be a lot of conviction. So I really do believe that you think the Nissan Leaf will explode, that the range is impractical or that you're upset at EV owners using public recharging stations for free until mid 2012 etc.

So I would say although I have proven you wrong, it's not entirely necessary to do so, because your style is to simply say "XYZ is true" and then nothing. No links to studies or any kind of evidence, just "I say XYZ is true and ABC is false". All I do is shrug when I see these posts.

MugMugs

MugMugs wrote: »

.......................

Who's to say that the Leaf v3.4 won't be able to crap all over a 1.8 / 1.9 Petrol equivelant at some stage ?

A 1.8 nasp petrol is a woeful heap of sh1t too
(except one or three obviously)

keithclancy wrote: »

Different strokes for different folks I guess, similarly Petrol heads would balk at the idea of getting a Diesel. .................

Indeed
That's what I was saying.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I call it your opinion because you fail to back up your strongly held beliefs with evidence. You do state those beliefs with what appears to be a lot of conviction. So I really do believe that you think the Nissan Leaf will explode, that the range is impractical or that you're upset at EV owners using public recharging stations for free until mid 2012 etc.

So I would say although I have proven you wrong, it's not entirely necessary to do so, because your style is to simply say "XYZ is true" and then nothing. No links to studies or any kind of evidence, just "I say XYZ is true and ABC is false". All I do is shrug when I see these posts.

so you now realise you've proven nobody wrong. That's an improvement.

Your ideas of how much can be done for batteries and price are fantastical and not backed up by science.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

so you now realise you've proven nobody wrong. That's an improvement.

Your ideas of how much can be done for batteries and price are fantastical and not backed up by science.

Have a good day MYOB

keithclancy

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

What I'm more interested in knowing is how you propose a small island nation secure its energy supply? Do you think cheaper oil is here for the foreseeable future? If so where will we get ours from? How will we protect ourselves from supply shocks from unreliable suppliers? Middle East war, a belligerent Russia / Argentina and increasing demand from BRIC countries for limited oil supplies?
.

Well in fairness you could argue that if you go all Electric and remove your dependence on Oil that you end up dependant on Lithium instead:

Link

It has been estimated that 70% of the world’s lithium resources are located in the “lithium triangle” – a small area in South America near the borders of Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia (The Trouble with Lithium 2: Under the Microscope, 2008)

But its possible to overcome that by having second use in other applications or large scale re-cycling.

Drummerboy08

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I wouldn't call them "components", they're literally 48 batteries. Specially trained EV tech might sound great now, but in a few years time every big garage will have one of those. You're saying that like it means it should be automatically considered expensive? Either way even if I took your pessimistic assessment as fact (which I'm not), 6+ years from now replacement cost is 2018 prices, not 2011/2012 prices.

The car uploads details on itself to Nissan via the built-in mobile data connection, so we'll know in the next year or two if they will degrade as fast as you think they will.

You're still not listening to me. You keep saying there is 48 batteries in the LiB, and yes, there are. However, they only make up one major component, the LiB.

The single batteries will not be offered for sale, if the battery needs to be replaced in a Leaf, the entire unit will be replaced.

Regardless of this, lets go with your train of thought for a minute. Suppose Nissan offer each battery for sale separately. If there are 48 batteries in the LiB, each of these 48 batteries will have been working for the same amount of time, over the same distance, in the same conditions.

Surely if one of these 48 batteries are losing a charge, the remaining 47 will be in a similar condition which would mean they all need to be replaced? Thus, replacing the entire unit. When the batteries in your torch fail, you don't only replace one, you replace them all.

I agree that the 2012 price for one of these units is a bit irrelevant because chances are the LiB won't require replacement for a few years yet. However, I don't believe that the cost will drop so significantly as to make it affordable. It will still be at least a 4 figure sum.

So, based on the above, your going to have a 30k car in 6/7/8 years time that will require a big investment to keep it on the road. Almost like having a petrol/diesel powered car that will need a new engine.

And now, finally, can your see my point? The Renault system of leasing the battery to the end user is a better system as it never exposes the end user to a cost like the above.

Back to your post I quoted above, I'm well aware of how the car will communicate with Nissan. However, the fact that the battery would need to be replaced after x years is not based on my opinion and thought, it's based on what Nissan have said.

I just want to go back to a point you made earlier in this thread also, about the car having an 8 year warranty in the States. It may, but this still does not cover loss of charge over time in the LiB, just as the European warranty doesnt.

Finally, I just want to say that I'm actually behind the idea of the Leaf, I've driven both it and some of the Renault EV's and I like them. I've attended training by both Nissan and Renault on the aftermarket service of EV's too so I know exactly what is being said by the manufacturer.

I just think some of your posts here are a bit fan-boyish which can annoy and rub up other posters the wrong way.

Sesshoumaru

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

*snip*

I just think some of your posts here are a bit fan-boyish which can annoy and rub up other posters the wrong way.

I just like to point out that you're not actually providing evidence to back up your claims. You're implying you work for either Renault or Nissan maybe or at least in some way have access to inside information from these companies? and therefore you are sharing insider information and we should just take your word as Gospel? because it certainly doesn't match up with what Nissan are saying in public!

But firstly the quoted comment above struck me the most and I wanted to share why I found this very ironic. Below is your first post on this thread that I started. This thread I started was about a public charging point in Tesco Maynooth.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

It actually makes more sense to lease the battery like Renault than to include it in the cost of the car like Nissan did.

The battery in the Leaf has an expected life of around 7 years. This means in 7 years time, the proud owner of a Leaf has to fork out up to 12k for a new battery, whereas Mr Renault EV owner doesn't need to worry about that because he never owns the battery.

Much better system IMO. It also makes sense when you consider that Renault are developing a system where you drive into an EV centre, and your empty batter is swapped for a charged battery.

*I have added the emphasis in this quote*

Your first post on this thread wasn't about the charge point in Tesco Maynooth or about charging infrastructure in general. It was to say Renault have a better sales model than Nissan, that is more beneficial to the customer. I don't think I need to explain the irony any further.

I'm just going to post some links to public statements from Nissan to respond to the rest of your post.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8674273/Electric-car-owners-may-face-19000-battery-charge.html

Andy Palmer, Nissan GB’s senior vice-president, told the paper that the lithium ion battery is made up of 48 modules. He said that each would cost £404 to replace, making £19,392 for the entire battery pack. He said that most owners would not need a new battery for at least ten years because electric vehicles should mainly be used for short journeys.

*Individual battery replacement*

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1064332_nissan-leafs-battery-pack-should-last-as-long-as-the-car

“The Leaf battery pack is designed to last the lifetime of the car. IF used in normal conditions, it is not expected that owners will ever have to replace the battery pack,” a spokesperson told us. “Our tests suggest that the battery will be at 80% capacity after five years depending on charging and usage. Even at 80% the Leaf would give a range of more than 80 miles.”

*Battery doesn't just simply stop working when it reaches 80% capacity*

“We are confident that [rapid] charging once a day will have no impact on the expected durability,” said a Nissan representative. “A single [rapid] charge plus a conventional charge per day would give enough to travel almost 200 miles a day, or 72,000 miles a year. The average motorist does less than 10,000 miles a year. An example from our telematics shows a privately-owned Leaf in Tokyo still has 100% charge capacity after 10,00 miles and 326 [rapid] charges."

*Private Leaf that still has 100% capacity after 326 rapid charges*

“To make the maintenance of the Leaf as easy as possible, the “battery” is actually 48 batteries in a large box which can be replaced individually to keep costs low. Each is connected to the Leaf’s advanced telematics system so Nissan can monitor the health of each module remotely. The price quoted in the press of [$31,795] for an entire battery is not indicative of the actual cost. It is an extrapolation of the individual price of replacing a single battery multiplied by 48. The cost of a conventional engine and transmission built up from individually sourced parts would be similarly high”

*Batteries can be replaced individually*

keithclancy

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The price quoted in the press of [$31,795] for an entire battery is not indicative of the actual cost. It is an extrapolation of the individual price of replacing a single battery multiplied by 48. The cost of a conventional engine and transmission built up from individually sourced parts would be similarly high”

Well that is a load of cobblers, who would build an engine from individually sourced parts, you'd just buy a new one.

I can't think of any similarly priced car next to the leaf that would cost 24,000 euros to replace the engine and transmission.

And if it did cost that much the thing would be beyond economic repair.

Plus you can get a second hand engine, whereas you cannot do that with batteries.

Just pointing out that the statement is a little bit flawed, not a personal attack or anything.

Andy Palmer, Nissan GB’s senior vice-president, told the paper that the lithium ion battery is made up of 48 modules. He said that each would cost £404 to replace, making £19,392 for the entire battery pack. He said that most owners would not need a new battery for at least ten years because electric vehicles should mainly be used for short journeys.


What happens after 10 years though? Also he says most would not need a new battery not most won't need a new module.

If the battery is at 80% capacity after 5 years is it not reasonable to think that after another 5 it will be worse again?

Also lets face it, there's a decent chance they're wrong or at least not 100% correct.

Mr Benevolent

RoverJames wrote: »

Andy Palmer, Nissan GB’s senior vice-president, told the paper that the lithium ion battery is made up of 48 modules. He said that each would cost £404 to replace, making £19,392 for the entire battery pack. He said that most owners would not need a new battery for at least ten years because electric vehicles should mainly be used for short journeys.


What happens after 10 years though? Also he says most would not need a new battery not most won't need a new module.

If the battery is at 80% capacity after 5 years is it not reasonable to think that after another 5 it will be worse again?

Also lets face it, there's a decent chance they're wrong or at least not 100% correct.

It'll be useless as a s/h car after ten years then. I'm waiting for the second or third gen EVs.

Confab

Confab wrote: »

It'll be useless as a s/h car after ten years then. I'm waiting for the second or third gen EVs.

Will also make selling them on once they hit the 80% capacity mark a bit of a mission I would think. Of course you'd expect that wouldn't matter as environmentally friendly folk will no doubt keep them for as long as possible to ensure minimum damage to the environment etc etc etc

pajo1981

RoverJames wrote: »

What happens after 10 years though?

If you replace the battery you'll be driving around in car with a battery worth considerably more than the rest of the car.

Sesshoumaru

keithclancy wrote: »

Well that is a load of cobblers, who would build an engine from individually sourced parts, you'd just buy a new one.

I can't think of any similarly priced car next to the leaf that would cost 24,000 euros to replace the engine and transmission.

And if it did cost that much the thing would be beyond economic repair.

Plus you can get a second hand engine, whereas you cannot do that with batteries.

Just pointing out that the statement is a little bit flawed, not a personal attack or anything.

No worries, no offence taken. I'll just explain my understanding of it and you can tell me how it sounds to you?

The price to replace one of the 48 batteries as per the Telegraph is £404 UK pounds. The Telegraph then multiplied that by 48 to get the total cost. What I understand as Nissan's point is that £404 was the total cost to replace a single battery, including all costs such as labour. You don't do all the work to take out the battery pack, replace one of the 48, put the whole battery pack back in and then repeat for the second one battery etc

So you can't really say the battery pack costs £404 multiplied by 48. Maybe Nissan's analogy wasn't great, but they have a valid point. If you were going for complete replacement of the battery pack, then you'd put in one complete new battery pack in one go. Same as you'd do for an ICE engine, a complete engine swap of a complete engine if one was required.

Anyway none of those calculations assign any value to the battery pack after 5 years of use. If it still had 20kwh of capacity after 5 years it would still have significant value for secondary uses. I could imagine it in my home charging on cheaper night rate electricity and powering my home during the day. The first generation of this technology goes on sale this year. I can't find a quote right now, but Nissan have said powering your home has so little energy draw compared to driving a car (the battery pack has a maximum output of 90kw) that it has negligible effects on the battery.

In the demonstration, the Leaf was powering a specially-designed Smart House but Nissan is confident the technology could be used with existing homes. The power control system box will go on sale at the end of March next year in Japan, where more than 8,000 Leafs have been sold since the car launched in December 2010. The box will cost more than £4,000.

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/884798-nissan-unveils-technology-enabling-electric-leaf-car-to-power-family-home#ixzz1iUIdTHh7

Sesshoumaru

RoverJames wrote: »

Will also make selling them on once they hit the 80% capacity mark a bit of a mission I would think. Of course you'd expect that wouldn't matter as environmentally friendly folk will no doubt keep them for as long as possible to ensure minimum damage to the environment etc etc etc

You can look back on posts I've made in the past about my Leaf if you like. But I've stated previously I do want to keep this car a minimum of 10 years. I feel it will last a very long time, I've gotten into a lot of debates about the longevity of the electric motor and other parts I bought this car as a long term investment.

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You can look back on posts I've made in the past about my Leaf if you like. But I've stated previously I do want to keep this car a minimum of 10 years. I feel it will last a very long time, I've gotten into a lot of debates about the longevity of the electric motor and other parts I bought this car as a long term investment.

I wasn't referring to you
I was speaking in general terms.