The European Cup is unsustainable

Slideshowbob

Munster and Leinster's dominance of the Cup will become tiresome to the English and French teams as they must also concentrate on their domestic leagues

What y'all think?

Tox56

Seriously?

decisions

No.

Amazotheamazing

Well, depends what you mean, most french teams prioitise the Top14 already. The HEC isn't their be all and end all. The English teams are genuinely poor though.

chris85

Munsters dominance? They didnt even make it out of their group in last seasons Heineken Cup and went into the Amlin. They are doing ok this season in it but they have been lucky to get where they are and left a few wins to the last minute.

Leinster are doing well but other teams have been biting at their tail. Last season they had an epic final against Northampton and also one of the highest quality games I have ever seen against Toulouse in the semis.

irishbucsfan

Munster are two drop goals away from being bottom of their group, the year after they didn't make it past this stage. Hardly dominant.

Over the past three tournaments we've seen 2 English, 2 Irish and 2 French finalists.

JRant

Well considering it's possibly the highest standard of rugby in the Northern hemisphere then it's going nowhere.
The English would love to win it but don't really have the teams at the moment to do this. This will change though, it's just the cyclical nature of sport.
Of the the French, only Toulouse take it really seriously, the rest want the league title more (thinking Clermont recently).
And the Welsh teams are perennial bottlers, lots of talent but liable to sh*te themselves at any given moment.
Long may this competition continue, some of my all time favorite sporting moments of all time have come from it.:D

thomond2006

Heineken Cup saves us from the general manure that is test rugby.

Flincher

These things are cyclical. Northampton won in 00, Leicester won in 01, 02, and Wasps in 04.

What goes around.....

CatFromHue

Last years Quarter-finals:
9 April 2011
16:30 Perpignan 29 – 25 Toulon Estadi Olímpic Lluís Companys, Barcelona, Spain
Attendance: 55,000

9 April 2011
18:00 Leinster 17 – 10 Leicester Tigers Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Attendance: 49,762

10 April 2011
14:00 Northampton Saints 23 – 13 Ulster Stadium:mk, Milton Keynes[7]
Attendance: 21,309

17:30 Biarritz 20 – 27 (a.e.t) Toulouse Estadio Anoeta, San Sebastián, Spain
Attendance: 32,051

Semi-finals
30 April
15:30 (UTC) Leinster 32 – 23 Toulouse Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Attendance: 50,073
Referee: Dave Pearson (England)

1 May 2011
15:00 (UTC) Northampton Saints 23 – 7 Perpignan Stadium:mk, Milton Keynes
Attendance: 18,231
Referee: George Clancy (Ireland)

Top 14

Quarter-finals
13 May 2011
21:00 Clermont 27 – 17 Biarritz Stade Marcel-Michelin, Clermont-Ferrand
Attendance: 16,794[21]
Referee: Jean-Luc Rebollal

14 May 2011
16:25 Castres 17 – 18 Montpellier Stade Pierre-Antoine, Castres
Attendance: 10,012[22]

Semi-finals
27 May 2011
21:00 Toulouse 29 – 6 Clermont Stade Vélodrome, Marseille
Attendance: 56,676[23]

28 May 2011
16:25 Racing Métro 25 – 26 Montpellier Stade Vélodrome, Marseille
Attendance: 56,855[24]
Referee: Romain Poite

Aviva Premiership

Semi-finals
14 May 2011
3.15pm Leicester 11–3 Northampton Saints Welford Road
Attendance: 20,137
Referee: Wayne Barnes

15 May 2011
2.30pm Saracens 12–10 Gloucester Rugby Vicarage Road
Attendance: 12,032
Referee: Andrew Small

Looking at the attendance numbers alone I would argue it's far from unsustainable. When you compare it to the Top 14 and English Premiership it comes out pretty well too. No point in putting up the Magners Semi Finals attendance as they were skewed a bit by a lot of communions in Limerick on the day :pac::pac:

JRant

thomond2006 wrote: »

Heineken Cup saves us from the general manure that is test rugby.

Exactly, the 6 nations has become a snorefest as of late.

jasper11

6 nations n fairness i still a fantastic tournament wth most sides capable of winning it and the country does in general embrace it massively. CANT WAIT

Tox56

Us Irish teams are a little different, in that the HEC is our main priority, with the league used in most cases just to try out new players. We saw Leinster supporters being largely indifferent when they lost the Magners League final, because the HEC was already secured.

I'm not saying we don't care about the league (the Rabo is pretty crap anyway) but the HEC is the biggest part of our season. We saw a lot of the Munster supporters concluding 2010/11 was a pretty dissapointing season, even though they won the league, as they were eliminated from HEC.

The Aviva Premiership and Top 14 are very important for the participating teams (at least more so than the Rabo), and as a result they are much better leagues.

profitius

Tox56 wrote: »

Us Irish teams are a little different, in that the HEC is our main priority, with the league used in most cases just to try out new players. We saw Leinster supporters being largely indifferent when they lost the Magners League final, because the HEC was already secured.

I'm not saying we don't care about the league (the Rabo is pretty crap anyway) but the HEC is the biggest part of our season. We saw a lot of the Munster supporters concluding 2010/11 was a pretty dissapointing season, even though they won the league, as they were eliminated from HEC.

The Aviva Premiership and Top 14 are very important for the participating teams (at least more so than the Rabo), and as a result they are much better leagues.

I think the Rabo is a good competition. It has to put up with a level of negativity that no other league has to deal with but it doesn't mean its a bad league. Look at the Aviva being packed for a Leinster/Munster match as an example.

Amazotheamazing

Indeed, it's actually the International game that's unsustainable. Arguably one of the best steps in the International game recently was the return of touring games, Saracens against SA, Munster against NZ etc.

There is practically no limit to the amount the club game could grow. It's feasible, for example, that in 10 years Edinburgh could be as big as Leinster or Glasgow as big as Munster. If they decided to, Barcelona could easily afford to buy up a team of the best rugby players for the price of one of their football players. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona_Rugby)

Course, these are all fairly unlikely but it's much more likely that a club team will rise from a low point to winning something than say, Georgia getting into the 6 nations and then winning it.

Amazotheamazing

profitius wrote: »

I think the Rabo is a good competition. It has to put up with a level of negativity that no other league has to deal with but it doesn't mean its a bad league. Look at the Aviva being packed for a Leinster/Munster match as an example.

The pro12 is held back by an across-the-board poor standard of refereeing and by too much meddling by the governing unions.

JRant

jasper11 wrote: »

6 nations n fairness i still a fantastic tournament wth most sides capable of winning it and the country does in general embrace it massively. CANT WAIT

Hopefully we'll see an improvement this year as more and more clubs are playing an attractive brand of rugby around europe. Just look at some of the games we've seen in the HEC over the past couple of years and then compare with the 6 nations. As a whole the 6N has been poor the past 2/3 years but like the knockout stages of the HEC it has the ability to capture the imagination. Just needs the standard to improve in line with what the clubs are doing.

Tox56

profitius wrote: »

I think the Rabo is a good competition. It has to put up with a level of negativity that no other league has to deal with but it doesn't mean its a bad league. Look at the Aviva being packed for a Leinster/Munster match as an example.

That sort of game would be an exception to the rule. Munster and Leinster are by far the most supported teams in the competition, so put them together and it looks good.

The marquee games provide good value, but it is the other games that is the problem. Half-empty Welsh stadiums with a poor italian team against a 2nd string Welsh region, there are too many of these low quality and un-inspiring matches.

Leinster v Munster really is the biggest and highest quality match the league can provide, but many of the other games are just unbelievably poor.

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

Us Irish teams are a little different, in that the HEC is our main priority, with the league used in most cases just to try out new players. We saw Leinster supporters being largely indifferent when they lost the Magners League final, because the HEC was already secured.

I'm not saying we don't care about the league (the Rabo is pretty crap anyway) but the HEC is the biggest part of our season. We saw a lot of the Munster supporters concluding 2010/11 was a pretty dissapointing season, even though they won the league, as they were eliminated from HEC.

I don't Leinster supporters were indifferent as we knew the effect of what the HEC final a week previous would have had on the team, both physically and mentally. We also knew how hard it is to go Thomond and win (remember we'd been beaten there 6 weeks previously after Munster looked dead and buried at half time), plus Munster would have been waiting in the long grass for want of a better term for us. I would have loved to have won but realistically I think it was a bridge too far.

While getting knocked out of the HEC in the pool stages for the first time in how many years is pretty bad news but Munster were not playing very well. Their performances here would contribute to the whole poor season in general vibe. They did look pretty happy when they won the Magners, as did their fans.

Also after watching Bath play London Irish earlier I'd rethink how crap the Rabo is supposedly meant to be! I quite enjoy the league I have to say and while it's not as glamorous as the HEC there are some pretty good teams in it.
Take the HEC quater finalists over the last few years:
10/11: Leinster and Ulster
09/10: Leinster, Ospreys, and Munster
08/09: Cardiff, Munster, Opsreys, and Leinster
07/08: Cardiff, Munster, and Ospreys
06/07: Lanelli, Munster, and Leinster

So we have averaged about 3 Quarter finalists per season from an average of 8 teams (Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Cardiff, Lanelli, Ospreys, Edinburgh, and Glasgow). These may be back of the bar matt averages but they show how effective the league is.

profitius

Tox56 wrote: »

That sort of game would be an exception to the rule. Munster and Leinster are by far the most supported teams in the competition, so put them together and it looks good.

The marquee games provide good value, but it is the other games that is the problem. Half-empty Welsh stadiums with a poor italian team against a 2nd string Welsh region, there are too many of these low quality and un-inspiring matches.

Leinster v Munster really is the biggest and highest quality match the league can provide, but many of the other games are just unbelievably poor.

Leinster play some of the best rugby than any team in Europe. You have poor matches in every league too. Some French matches are terrible to watch for example.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The pro12 is held back by an across-the-board poor standard of refereeing and by too much meddling by the governing unions.

The unions have international sides to think about too. The refereeing standards are aweful alright. The worst in Europe especially for Irist teams.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't Leinster supporters were indifferent as we knew the effect of what the HEC final a week previous would have had on the team, both physically and mentally. We also knew how hard it is to go Thomond and win (remember we'd been beaten there 6 weeks previously after Munster looked dead and buried at half time), plus Munster would have been waiting in the long grass for want of a better term for us. I would have loved to have won but realistically I think it was a bridge too far.

While getting knocked out of the HEC in the pool stages for the first time in how many years is pretty bad news but Munster were not playing very well. Their performances here would contribute to the whole poor season in general vibe. They did look pretty happy when they won the Magners, as did their fans.

Also after watching Bath play London Irish earlier I'd rethink how crap the Rabo is supposedly meant to be! I quite enjoy the league I have to say and while it's not as glamorous as the HEC there are some pretty good teams in it.
Take the HEC quater finalists over the last few years:
10/11: Leinster and Ulster
09/10: Leinster, Ospreys, and Munster
08/09: Cardiff, Munster, Opsreys, and Leinster
07/08: Cardiff, Munster, and Ospreys
06/07: Lanelli, Munster, and Leinster

So we have averaged about 3 Quarter finalists per season from an average of 8 teams (Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Cardiff, Lanelli, Ospreys, Edinburgh, and Glasgow). These may be back of the bar matt averages but they show how effective the league is.

I agree the quality of the sides is good, the matches often aren't. Teams don't always field the same teams they would in the HEC, and often Rabo is a chance to rest a few players.

Thing is though, the Rabo has a lot of representatives in the HEC:

This year, there are 11 teams from the Rabo playing in the HEC, compared to 7 from England, and 6 from the Top 14 in France.

We have so many representatives, we have more chance to get through. Although I agree the calibre of teams is actually high, as I said before, the matches generally aren't.

CatFromHue

The Italian teams only joined the Magners last season and Connacht are only in the HEC as Leinster won it last season. The Magners had 8 teams that qualified directly, the Rabo has 10 now due to the Italians. For most of the seasons, which is why I said on average, I listed earlier we had 8 teams in the comp.

I have to say I enjoyed a lot of games last season so it is subjective. I'm a Leinster fan and all the games against Munster, Ulster, Connacht, Cardiff spring to mind.

Piliger

I don't agree with much of what has been said. The theory of English sides 'tiring' of the HC doesn't hold water. The prestige of the HC is too much to ignore. It's clear and evident status as the Championship of Europe. It's more likely that the English will eventually reform their structures to try to win it than tire of it.
The Pro12 is doing really well. Who is saying it isn't ? I don't agree with the sniping about it's quality or the referees. This is just carping from the sidelines from people who clearly don't understand the game and it's complexities.
We in Ireland are particularly fortunate in having probably the best referees in Europe. The standard of refs even in the club league is excellent.
In Ireland also we are lucky to have taken visionary decisions many years ago that resulted in a wonderfully provincial structure, enabling us to leverage our strengths. Wales and Scotland have made a complete dogs dinner of their structures and the fans there are being very badly served.

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

Leinster play some of the best rugby than any team in Europe. You have poor matches in every league too. Some French matches are terrible to watch for example.

Absolutely. Montpellier were particularly guilty of getting involved in some pretty dire games last season. Toulon as well.

Amazotheamazing

Does anyone know why the professional russian clubs don't play in the HEC, does their season allow for it?

Skid

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Munster and Leinster's dominance of the Cup will become tiresome to the English and French teams as they must also concentrate on their domestic leagues

What y'all think?

Wait until the IRFU NIQ rule changes come in. Leinster, Munster and Ulster will be hit badly.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Does anyone know why the professional russian clubs don't play in the HEC, does their season allow for it?

semi professional at best and not really of a high enough standard to play in the HEC. There is rumours that the Russian champions will be invited to the Amlin either next season or the season after

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster are two drop goals away from being bottom of their group, the year after they didn't make it past this stage. Hardly dominant.

Over the past three tournaments we've seen 2 English, 2 Irish and 2 French finalists.

TBF Munster and Leinster have won 4 of the last 6 Cups

I think that shows Irish dominance in recent years and imo that was the OP's point

I do think that other countries, particularly France don't put as much emphasis on the HC. It is only natural, where a National League exists, for it to be a big deal.

The fact we are in a multi-nation league detracts from that somewhat. While teams want to win, I dont think the same pride is there in winning the Rabo as a National Title in France or UK. There is less and less interest in Rabo games other than the Leinster-Munster Games, which are currently overhyped

Munster won it last year and even set records for the amount of games won, to little fanfare, other than the final, as it was against leinster

Digifriendly

Riskymove wrote: »

TBF Munster and Leinster have won 4 of the last 6 Cups

I think that shows Irish dominance in recent years and imo that was the OP's point

I do think that other countries, particularly France don't put as much emphasis on the HC. It is only natural, where a National League exists, for it to be a big deal.

The fact we are in a multi-nation league detracts from that somewhat. While teams want to win, I dont think the same pride is there in winning the Rabo as a National Title in France or UK. There is less and less interest in Rabo games other than the Leinster-Munster Games, which are currently overhyped

Munster won it last year and even set records for the amount of games won, to little fanfare, other than the final, as it was against leinster

Agree with most of what you say but are crowds down generally in Pro 12? Interpros over festive period were either sell outs or near full capacity - Connacht vs Leinster was AFAIK a record home crowd for Pro12.

Riskymove

Digifriendly wrote: »

Agree with most of what you say but are crowds down generally in Pro 12? Interpros over festive period were either sell outs or near full capacity - Connacht vs Leinster was AFAIK a record home crowd for Pro12.

ok then, so apart from matches between the provinces generally

Munster vs Connacht on Stephen's day had a decent crowd but not a sell-out

Digifriendly

Riskymove wrote: »

ok then, so apart from matches between the provinces generally

Munster vs Connacht on Stephen's day had a decent crowd but not a sell-out

Interesting to check crowds on Rabo Direct 12 website cf with last Christmas. Welsh crowds generally down (Ospreys vs Blues had x2 the no. last year) and increase in Scottish crowds for local derbies.

padser

Riskymove wrote: »

I do think that other countries, particularly France don't put as much emphasis on the HC. It is only natural, where a National League exists, for it to be a big deal.

I think part of the reason for this is the structure of the HEC.

Although the structure is really exciting, it's quite possible to be out of contention after the first two weeks of matches (potentially even almost out after just the first match). This means that you get teams with strong domestic leagues completely re focusing their efforts and throwing out second string sides. I wonder if it might be slightly better served if they added another round - so that all group runner ups get to play off for the final two QF spots. Most teams would be in contention for a runner up spot until round 4 or 5 at least.

Amazotheamazing

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

semi professional at best and not really of a high enough standard to play in the HEC. There is rumours that the Russian champions will be invited to the Amlin either next season or the season after

Fully pro league afaik. A modern Russian team would hardly be that far off the standard set by the Italians in the early days? Obviously wouldn't expect them to win it, or even win many games (same as the Italians) but it'd give massive exposure to their teams and players.

Artemyev went from playing in that league to playing for Saints, would be interesting to see what the standard is.

Riskymove

Digifriendly wrote: »

Interesting to check crowds on Rabo Direct 12 website cf with last Christmas. Welsh crowds generally down (Ospreys vs Blues had x2 the no. last year) and increase in Scottish crowds for local derbies.

considering the difference in weather, the declines are even worse

phog

Comparison between League and H/Cup attendances by season.

Season C/L H/C
01/02 258213 656382
02/03 308374 704782
03/04 501875 817833
04/05 470446 918039
05/06 571331 964853
06/07 661163 914048
07/08 609015 942373
08/09 731328 1175057
09/10 818181 1081989
10/11 1019634 1137427
11/12 546253 581855

desertcircus

phog wrote: »

Comparison between League and H/Cup attendances by season.

Season C/L H/C
01/02 258213 656382
02/03 308374 704782
03/04 501875 817833
04/05 470446 918039
05/06 571331 964853
06/07 661163 914048
07/08 609015 942373
08/09 731328 1175057
09/10 818181 1081989
10/11 1019634 1137427
11/12 546253 581855

That's quite encouraging, but I'd love to know if the figures for the Heineken Cup are for Pro12 teams' home games only or for all games. If the former, the Pro12 attendance is decent, but if it's the latter then it's excellent.

phog

desertcircus wrote: »

That's quite encouraging, but I'd love to know if the figures for the Heineken Cup are for Pro12 teams' home games only or for all games. If the former, the Pro12 attendance is decent, but if it's the latter then it's excellent.

Am I reading your post correctly? All games will have a home team, even the finals have a team listed as being the home team.

These are the attendances at the games (including knockout stages and finals).

durkadurka

Hey Phog, I presume these attendances are for all games in the respective compeitition - not just where irish teams were involved?

Worth including the number of games in each comp too - 79 by my reckoning in the HEC vs 132 in the Rabo (90 before last season)

Also I would suspect that for last season approx 50% - 60% of the attendance was for Irish home games in the Rabo.

Riskymove

durkadurka wrote: »

Worth including the number of games in each comp too - 79 by my reckoning in the HEC vs 132 in the Rabo (90 before last season)

Also I would suspect that for last season approx 50% - 60% of the attendance was for Irish home games in the Rabo.

very relevant

as is the fact that PRO 12 was extended 2 seasons ago giving every team two extra home games

phog

durkadurka wrote: »

Hey Phog, I presume these attendances are for all games in the respective compeitition - not just where irish teams were involved?

Worth including the number of games in each comp too - 79 by my reckoning in the HEC vs 132 in the Rabo (90 before last season)

Also I would suspect that for last season approx 50% - 60% of the attendance was for Irish home games in the Rabo.

Yes, All games for each competition.

Season C/L Attendance C/L Games H/C Attendance H/C Games
01/02 258213 52 656382 79
02/03 308374 60 704782 79
03/04 501875 132 817833 79
04/05 470446 110 918039 79
05/06 571331 110 964853 78
06/07 661163 110 914048 79
07/08 609015 90 942373 79
08/09 731328 90 1175057 79
09/10 818181 93 1081989 79
10/11 1019634 135 1137427 79
11/12 546253 71 581855 46

Riskymove

phog wrote: »

Yes, All games for each competition.

Season C/L Attendance C/L Games H/C Attendance H/C Games
01/02 258213 52 656382 79
02/03 308374 60 704782 79
03/04 501875 132 817833 79
04/05 470446 110 918039 79
05/06 571331 110 964853 78
06/07 661163 110 914048 79
07/08 609015 90 942373 79
08/09 731328 90 1175057 79
09/10 818181 93 1081989 79
10/11 1019634 135 1137427 79
11/12 546253 71 581855 46

so the HC average attendance is around double that of the League

Is it just the Rabo? or are English and French leagues included?

EDIT actually it must just be Rabo given numbers

so its still not like for like

phog

Riskymove wrote: »

so the HC average attendance is around double that of the League

Is it just the Rabo? or are English and French leagues included?

EDIT actually it must just be Rabo given numbers

so its still not like for like

Comparison between Rabo and H/C only - it excludes the Amlin as well

Riskymove

phog wrote: »

Comparison between Rabo and H/C only - it excludes the Amlin as well

so the HC figures include ENG and French team games

so the actual difference for Rabo 12 teams is less than first appears; on the overall figures average attendance is doubled in the HC; but its probably a bit less than that

desertcircus

phog wrote: »

Am I reading your post correctly? All games will have a home team, even the finals have a team listed as being the home team.

These are the attendances at the games (including knockout stages and finals).

Apologies, should have been clearer. Wasn't sure whether the figures for the Heineken Cup only included games hosted by a Pro12 team, or whether all games were included in the total. The question has since been answered, so mystery solved.

phog

desertcircus wrote: »

Apologies, should have been clearer. Wasn't sure whether the figures for the Heineken Cup only included games hosted by a Pro12 team, or whether all games were included in the total. The question has since been answered, so mystery solved.

Sorry, in reading back over the posts I realised I misread your post but as you say, all been answered now.:D

Sindri

I would of thought that it's worth quite a bit of money even for just participating.

Slideshowbob

http://www.independent.ie/sport/heineken-cup-looks-doomed-as-english-and-french-clubs-to-press-ahead-with-replacement-29568488.html

So, was I right in my assertions?

Foxtrol

No

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Slideshowbob wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/heineken-cup-looks-doomed-as-english-and-french-clubs-to-press-ahead-with-replacement-29568488.html

So, was I right in my assertions?

No,

It's not a case of the French and English being upset about Irish dominance. It's all about cash

Dick Turnip

And from RTE website
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2013/0910/473413-english-and-french-clubs-break-from-heineken-cup/

English and French clubs are poised to set up a new European competition and bring an end to the Heineken Cup in its current form from the beginning of the 2014/15 season.

The shock development was revealed in a statement released by Premiership Rugby on the Premiershiprugby.com website shortly after 5pm.

The statement said that English clubs had asked Premiership Rugby to put a new competition in place for 2014/15. It said that the new competition will also be open to teams from other countries.

The ‘Paris Accord’, the current agreement between participants in the Heineken Cup which has been in place since 2007, is due to expire after the final of this year’s competition in May.

Negotiations intended to address issues raised by the English and French clubs had been taking place. The last meeting took place in May.

However, there is a scheduled meeting on the issue invovling all stakeholders due to take place at European Rugby Cup (ERC) in Dublin tomorrow.
This evening, French clubs released a near-simultaneous statement confirming their support for the English move.

The dispute centres on qualification criteria and broadcast rights.
French and English clubs want to change the qualification criteria for the Heineken Cup and reduce the number of teams taking part from 20.
Currently, the competition consists of 24 teams with six each from England and France, three each from Ireland and Wales, and two each from Scotland and Italy taking part. The Heineken Cup winner and the Amlin Challenge Cup winner also receive places in the following year’s tournament.

As it stands, each country independently decides how to award its places. Ireland and Wales award theirs on the basis of RaboDirect Pro12 finishing position. Scotland and Italy only have two professional teams and award their places to those teams places automatically.This year, Leinster’s Challenge Cup victory meant Connacht were awarded a place.

Irish provinces have won five of the last eight Heineken Cups. The last English winner was London Wasps, who beat Leicester Tigers in an all-English final in 2006/7.

Broadcast rights agreements are a potential sticking point in negotiations with BT Vision and Sky both involved in the battle to show the competition.
ERC and Sky negotiated a contract extension beyond 2014, but the English clubs say that ERC was not entitled to sign off on that deal.
The English clubs have negotiated a separate deal involving both the domestic English league and European matches with BT Vision.