WARNING TO ALL GUN OWNERS

Gonzor

Sparks wrote: »

• It won't work. If you think boards.ie is the only place people could find information on you, you either never ever go to any other website and you have a very, very specialised setup indeed; or you're wrong. I'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your pockets that it's the latter.

Boards... youtube... and then googling... had an account on snipershide one time. Out of all those boards is unique. Take every comment/bit of information I ever put into youtube and you'll pin me to Ireland. You'll know I have an interest in firearms and shooting, but thats about it.

Sparks wrote: »

• Even if we restricted ourselves, other sites won't; and if we did restrict ourselves, we wouldn't be an open group that new shooters can come to to learn; we'd be a closed club of ould fellas chewing the cud. No thanks. We're the largest shooting forum in the country by a very large margin, and frankly we're the best for a very wide range of topics - none of us want to see that change, and we certainly don't want to deliberately destroy that.

It would still be an open group. It just means having to send a pm to a mod to get in. Its a bit of a hoop, but sure so is having to register an account on boards.... and so is filling in an FCA1 form. If you can manage those two things then a simple pm shouldnt sink the boat.

Going by all the thanks on bitemybangers post I say we have a vote on it.

We'll draw up a proper idea and then post a new thread outlining the idea and put a poll on it... we all vote and then see what the results are and then we go from there.

landkeeper

now where is the face palm picture when it's needed :eek:

Sparks

Gonzor wrote: »

Boards... youtube... and then googling... had an account on snipershide one time. Out of all those boards is unique. Take every comment/bit of information I ever put into youtube and you'll pin me to Ireland. You'll know I have an interest in firearms and shooting, but thats about it.

Now add in facebook (not just you, but anyone who knows you or ever took a photo of you), tumblr, photobucket, the local press in some cases, any shooting magazine where you put in an ad to sell anything, any public database that has your details, and if you have a smartphone then you've heard of CarrierIQ, right?
You live in a panopticon, whether you know it or not.

It would still be an open group. It just means having to send a pm to a mod to get in.

That's not an open group. That's a closed group with a small application form and no appeals process.

And it will effectively slam the door shut on anyone who's just curious to see what our sports are like and who'd like to find out more by asking on here. And none of the mods want to do that.

Going by all the thanks on bitemybangers post I say we have a vote on it.

Tried that recently. Not happening. No offence.

Gonzor

Not that I think its a good comparison... but facebook? (Im not a facebook user so if Im wrong feel free to correct me). Facebook gives you the option to shut off your account from strangers. We cant do that here. Facebook doesnt have a thriving community of firearm enthusiasts. We have that here.

Public database that has my details? You mean like my library or my local DVD store...? That doesnt say much about what guns I have in the house to be very honest with you now.

Shooting magazine adds..? None for me. And none for most shooters I know. And even if you did put an add in a magazine its not the same.

For example:

"12 guage holland & holland for sale, call gonzor 0861234567"

versus my boards account which would tell you every gun I have, where abouts I live, what hours Im not at home etc....


Smartphone carrier IQ...? Im not going to lie Im not very technologically inclined. But is that were your phone is tracking you?

Well if it is, how does the average joe soap like me pick someone like you and then hack into your phone and find out what guns you have, where you live etc..?

Then I say, actually no, Sparks doesnt have a pistol and thats what Im after, lets see I'll hack Kildare17hmrs phone now and see what he has. Like how does that work?

---

Ok lets not get into an argument about technical terms.

We could use the argument of gun licences are killing off our sport... How much do you want to bet that if Joe soap could buy a gun over the counter in his local aldi by just producing photo ID and signing a form and he walks off with his new gun there and then, then we'd have a lot more shooters.

Or what about having to register an account on boards? Would it not be easier if people could post without needing an account? How does needing an account affect this community? If people could post anonymously would we see the size of this community double?

Seriously, I dont think having to a pm a mod is going to kill off the community.

---

Really, there was a vote on this recently? I must have missed it. Ok well that being the case then I'll leave it at that. No point in bringing up a past issue.

Sparks

Gonzor wrote: »

Not that I think its a good comparison... but facebook? (Im not a facebook user so if Im wrong feel free to correct me). Facebook gives you the option to shut off your account from strangers. We cant do that here.

So, (a) Facebook can change that policy at any time and you can't do diddly about it (and they've done this several times); (b) the photos put up of you on Facebook by others are controlled (in terms of the privacy settings) by others; and (c) we can do that here and Ezri showed how to in a post on this thread...

Facebook doesnt have a thriving community of firearm enthusiasts. We have that here.

Er, yes they do. Pretty much the entire international ISSF community seems to be on there, and all the Irish community (ISSF and otherwise) as well.
So if anyone ever took a photo of you at a shoot, there's a reasonable chance that you're on there (and they let you tag a photo to identify people in it, and they have facial recognition software that "aids" users in doing that as well...)

Public database that has my details? You mean like my library or my local DVD store...? That doesnt say much about what guns I have in the house to be very honest with you now.

Nope, only one official database has that information in one spot (PULSE).
However, you're talking about integrating information from multiple sources to build up a picture of an individual. So company records, website records if you have one, anything that's requestable under FOI or other similar Acts, phone books, all of those have to be considered.

Shooting magazine adds..? None for me. And none for most shooters I know.

So how do you sell your firearms then?

And even if you did put an add in a magazine its not the same.
For example:
"12 guage holland & holland for sale, call gonzor 0861234567"
versus my boards account which would tell you every gun I have, where abouts I live, what hours Im not at home etc....

So now you have a name and a phone number and a gun type.
If you think that means you're still anonymous, I think you might have a rude surprise in your future...

Smartphone carrier IQ...? Im not going to lie Im not very technologically inclined. But is that were your phone is tracking you?

It's a small piece of software recently found on almost every smartphone out there (Android, iPhone, Nokia, etc) that logged every single keystroke you entered and uploaded it to a company that was using it to generate analytics about you for advertising.

But if you ever looked at your email with your smartphone, entered a password, looked at your bank accounts, sent a text to someone... all of that was being uploaded too. How secure that data was, nobody knows. So some random kid in Wisconsin hacks into their server, grabs all that data and puts it up on a bittorrent website and now everyone knows your bank account details...

We could use the argument of gun licences are killing off our sport.

They are. It's not really an argument!

Or what about having to register an account on boards? Would it not be easier if people could post without needing an account?

In some forums they can, but those forums need far closer moderation and their charters are far more strict.

Seriously, I dont think having to a pm a mod is going to kill off the community.

Filling out an anonymous form and clicking a button probably loses us two thirds of the people who'd post here otherwise.
It also saves us from a monumental deluge of spam (and you've probably seen some of that pop up in here in the last few weeks, but we've avoided the worst of that until now; those now getting in are using mechanical turks -- ie. people paid to register and post spam -- to get round the registration form.
But that form is a decent balancing point between making it hard enough to reduce spam to a managable level and making it easy for new posters to post that first time.

Really, there was a vote on this recently?

There was a poll on what to do with the photos thread in Hunting.

Gonzor

Lets not get tangled up in comparing boards with facebook because its comparing apples and oranges.

(But just for the record, a photograph of me holding a rifle doesnt say very much in comparison to the information that could be gotten from my boards account.)

---

PULSE...?? You got to be joking me. THe main people who have access to that are the guards. I can assure you, Im more worried about some scumbag chancing his arm then a dodgy garda trying to break in on his night off.


So every detail I ever put in my phone is saved to a server somewhere? Well thats a seperate issue really isnt it?

I cant go to that company and say "hey thats a security risk, lets work on this".... but I can here on boards. Isnt that what we all know and love about boards afterall?

Some kid in wisconsin hacks into a server, gets my bank details and puts it online. THats a seperate issue and doesnt have anything to do with this. Or am I missing something?

---

I sell through my RFD... I kinda assumed everybody else did.

---

I think you may have missed my point slightly. Im not actually calling for us to hand out guns over the counter, or allow anonymous posting on this website.

Im just pointing out that if people can get past an FCA1 form and go through all the hassle of setting up a boards account- then one little pm isnt going to break the bank.

---

Thats the poll you were referring to. I must have picked you up wrong. Sorry

How about we just have a poll and let the community as a whole speak. No offence intended, but I dont see why you can speak for everybody here just because your the head moderator. And again, me and you could bicker back and forward all night but it wont represent what the majority of the people think.

Lets have a poll and we'll let the votes do the speaking. Its the fairest way.

landkeeper

gooooooooawaaaaaayyyy we are all big boys we understand the choices /risks /possibilities when we use this website, that is our choice if you don't like it don't register don't use the site some of us have been here for a longtime not just 5 minutes your going to throw the baby out with the dishwater

Sparks

Gonzor wrote: »

Lets not get tangled up in comparing boards with facebook because its comparing apples and oranges.

Sorry, that's not possible with this topic. It's all about the technical details.
You might as well say "lets discuss brain surgery, but not get tangled up in all that medical nonsense".

(But just for the record, a photograph of me holding a rifle doesnt say very much in comparison to the information that could be gotten from my boards account.)

Yes, because a single photo is a single data point, whereas you've posted 123 times in boards, so that's more data.
But if you were a facebook user, then that wouldn't be the case - it'd probably be easier to find out about you on facebook.

PULSE...?? You got to be joking me.

Nope. It's the one official database.
Clubs and such might maintain local records, but that's the only official national database I know of that has your name and your firearms in the one spot.

THe main people who have access to that are the guards.

(a) Yes, I said "official" not "public". There's a difference.
(b) When was the last time you heard of non-Gardai getting access to PULSE data illicitly, or Gardai misusing their access rights? (For me, I heard of instances of both in the last year in the media).

I can assure you, Im more worried about some scumbag chancing his arm then a dodgy garda trying to break in on his night off.

Ah, risk assessment. Finally we get to the meat of this.
From the Gardai (and I've had to deal with them in three burglaries so far), their best advice is:

• Have good locks on the doors and windows of your house;
• Use them.
• And maybe get a house alarm.

That accounts for well over 90% of all burglaries according to all of the Gardai I've talked to about this; because the vast majority of burglaries are opportunistic. Lout sees an open window when the family's out of the house, lout breaks in and steals small, valuable items they can sell fast, or money.
The remainder are usually not deterred by alarms or anything else and that's what your house insurance is for.

So either it's avoidable bad luck, or you've been targetted. The latter is very uncommon and rare, but it's scarier so everyone immediately thinks of it -- same way people worry about dying in an airliner crash, but in reality your stairs at home are a few thousand times more dangerous according to the statistics (aka. What actually happens ).

So every detail I ever put in my phone is saved to a server somewhere? Well thats a seperate issue really isnt it?

Nope.
The point is that you're living in a panopticon; worrying about it isn't daft or silly, but it isn't going to change it readily.
And killing off boards.ie certainly wouldn't fix the problem, it'd be like cutting off a finger because you've seen the first chicken pox spot show up on it - you lose a finger and don't cure the chicken pox...

I cant go to that company and say "hey thats a security risk, lets work on this".... but I can here on boards. Isnt that what we all know and love about boards afterall?

Again, Ezri posted instructions above on how to decide what information you share on your boards.ie account and with whom.

And in general, if you don't want it on the internet, don't put it there in the first place.

I sell through my RFD... I kinda assumed everybody else did.

What's rule #2 of the For Sale forum charter?

Im just pointing out that if people can get past an FCA1 form and go through all the hassle of setting up a boards account- then one little pm isnt going to break the bank.

Yes, it is.
That FCA1 form has led to tens of thousands of firearms being handed in - and that's by people who'd had licences, who were past the worst of the obstacles to getting a firearm for sport or hunting. So saying it's not an obstacle is demonstrably false. We can help people get over it if they ask, but we're Irish - asking isn't something we do really well.

The same argument applies in the case of the random passer-by who happens on our forum and wants to ask about starting in the sport. We won't be putting more obstacles in their way, because the average age in our sport is in the mid-40s and it's going up, not down. And that's a really, really bad thing that we don't want to exacerbate.

Lets have a poll and we'll let the votes do the speaking. Its the fairest way.

No, for two main reasons:

1. We've tried that experiment, and it failed. It was a trainwreck. We're not going there again without a better reason than your unsupported assertion that it's fair (which it wouldn't be, anymore than giving ICABS equal time with the NARGC in the media is).
2. This isn't the colour of the bike shed we're talking about, it's the guts of the nuclear reactor. (Parkinson's law of triviality, in case that doesn't sound familiar). Most people don't know much about computer security, every study shows that humans are just woefully bad at risk assessment, and very few know how online communities react to things like this - so asking them to decide what to do would be like asking a fry cook to do thoracic surgery because hey, it's all meat...

[

Gonzor

To be honest I could sit here all night arguing with you. But I really couldnt be bothered anymore to be quite honest with you.

But like I said, based on how many people thanked bitemybangers post I still think you should let the wider community decide but both yourself and landkeeper have spoken... so we'll leave it at that then.

Cass

Gonzor wrote: »

But like I said, based on how many people thanked bitemybangers post I still think you should let the wider community decide but both yourself and landkeeper have spoken... so we'll leave it at that then.

20. Out of thouands of members.

The last poll that was held was a disaster. It will not be happening again. So allow me to "finalise" the decision. There will be no poll, the forum will not be made private, there will be no admittance form/procedure.

Use the privacy settings i showed you in my previous posts if you are concerned. Turn off GPS locators on your phone cameras, etc.

Manic Moran

But like I said, based on how many people thanked bitemybangers post

No offence to those lads but.... They're wrong. Or at best, short-sighted.

A niche sport needs all the positive publicity it can get in order to become anything other than a niche sport. (And face it, shooting is hardly mainstream in Ireland). Reducing negative publicity does not get you anything. That means making it as easy as possible for people to get good information. Any barrier, even if it's a simple 'May I get into your forum please" PM is going to be a significant barrier to entry. The figures on such things are shocking, in my current company as an online game manufacturer we track every click and step a customer makes. You won't believe how many people will register, get the confirmation email, and not bother just clicking the 'confirm' hyperlink. Every single click required on the web page or other such action results in a percentage drop-off of the audience. And that's before you get to the whole issue of 'Why do they feel the need to hide themselves?!' perception problem.

In the meantime, we're talking about people who will go through the effort of...

But yet here on boards those same people can cross over to the shooting section and backtrack through all my posts (which actually happened not long ago, someone took a dislike to me and decided to see could he dig up dirt)... The guy found out what exact guns I have. How many people live in the house with me... what I work at... what hours I work... etc

And we're expected to think that someone who goes through all that effort is going to thwarted by having to send a pro-forma PM!? Or just having an arbitrary amount of posts on Boards?

It's like talking about American airport security. "Let's do something which is terribly self-defeating and inconvenient, but it's a placebo to make us all feel better without doing anything about the core problem"

NTM

Gonzor

Ezridax wrote: »

20. Out of thouands of members.

I didnt realise that the shooting section of boards.ie had thousands of regular members :eek:

fodda

Can i ask why Boards lock the posts you have made after a couple of days so when someone wants to edit what they have posted, they are then unable to do this because it has been disabled and the info they may not want there anymore they can do nothing about.

willcork

Hi all,
Its really quite simple, if someone offers you large ammounts of money to commit a crime then you are obliged to contact the gardai and make them aware of it.
As to restricting access to this forum i feel it would be a disaster. I post very rarely here, as does my brother, but i can assure you that we would just go elsewhere to post if we had to apply for access or any of that nonsense. It would not serve our community in any way

Local-womanizer

As willcork said, I don't post here much either but when I have had to ask for advice I got an answer pretty quick.

And lets be honest, If I had to go through the hassle of registering for this forum ,then wait for me to be accepted, in that time I could have got my answer somewhere else.

It's grand the way it is, as others have said just be vigilant in your dealings, as you should be with anything on the internet.

Cass

Gonzor wrote: »

I didnt realise that the shooting section of boards.ie had thousands of regular members :eek:

Now you do.

fodda wrote: »

Can i ask why Boards lock the posts you have made after a couple of days so when someone wants to edit what they have posted, they are then unable to do this because it has been disabled and the info they may not want there anymore they can do nothing about.

For context.

If people were able to constantly edit posts the context of a thread could change and if someone made a remark, stated something then edited a day, week, month year later it leaves all other posts out of context, and ends up wrecking threads.

Its also a system thing. There is not any one person doing it. You have, i think, 48 hours to edit a post then it remains as is. Also this will not be changed, and is beyond the powers of the Mods, and CatMods to do even if it were so desired.

fodda

Ezridax wrote: »

Now you do.

For context.

If people were able to constantly edit posts the context of a thread could change and if someone made a remark, stated something then edited a day, week, month year later it leaves all other posts out of context, and ends up wrecking threads.

Its also a system thing. There is not any one person doing it. You have, i think, 48 hours to edit a post then it remains as is. Also this will not be changed, and is beyond the powers of the Mods, and CatMods to do even if it were so desired.

So is this a forum (talking place) or a collector of information, or both?

Who do the posts made by members belong too?

Hunter21

I know firearm security is a big issue but as with everything in Ireland it's complicated enough to get things as it is.
An employer can make sure an employee has a safe pass done and inform him that he or she wears the protective equipment, it's common sense that the employee wears the equipment.
Same as firearm security! Most of it is common sense, keep stuff in safe secure places and keep your info to yourself.

Making boards more "secure" is not the answer, members need to be responsible do their own actions too it's not always up to admin/moderators to make it 100% secure.

It's easy for some to say "sure block off all outsiders" cause your inside looking out, remember once you were an outsider too trying to find info. Don't make it harder for newbies lads.

Cass

fodda wrote: »

So is this a forum (talking place) or a collector of information, or both?

Who do the posts made by members belong too?

its a discussion forum, and also a place tfor newbies/members/non members to gather info on topics related to shooting.

As for the posts. I'm not getting into this with you. If you have an issue with how long a post can be edited for contact an admin, and complain to them. I have no say, power, control over it.

I've given you the reason as i see it.

Sparks

fodda wrote: »

Who do the posts made by members belong too?

You ought to know already, since you agreed to the Boards.ie terms and conditions when you signed up and they specifically deal with this issue (you'd never sign a legally binding agreement without reading it, right?):

You own all of the Material you post on Boards.ie and we do not claim ownership of that Material. However, we need your permission to be able to display that Material and in some cases to modify it for best display – for different browsers, for our mobile site, and so on.

Consequently, by posting any Material on or through Boards.ie, you grant us a limited licence to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Material.

The licence you grant to us is non-exclusive, royalty-free and fully paid, sub-licensable, and worldwide. This licence applies only to use of the Material for the purpose of providing the Boards.ie service.

In order to ensure that threads and conversations are not disrupted, we do not generally remove Material which is uploaded to us. Consequently, you agree that your Material displayed on Boards.ie may continue to appear on Boards.ie, even after you have terminated your user privileges or have had your user privileges terminated by Boards.ie.

However, we understand that you may wish to remove certain types of original creative Material (such as your photographs, drawings, videos, short stories, architectural plans, poetry and the like) from time to time.

Consequently if for any reason you decide that you no longer wish to have your original creative Material displayed on Boards.ie then we will delete it provided that this does not have a significant negative impact on the structure of the thread it features in. For example, we will not delete a work put up for constructive criticism as to do so would make the posts which respond meaningless.

To have original creative Material deleted, please contact the relevant forum moderator with a direct link to the relevant item and your request. We will delete it within 10 working days of your request, as far as reasonably possible.

Please note that deletion of original creative Material applies only to Material you have uploaded to us. If you have posted a link on Boards.ie to Material hosted elsewhere (such as Flickr or YouTube) then as we are not the hosts you will have to contact that other site to have that Material deleted.

(the Terms of Use are linked to at the bottom of every page on boards.ie)

Bananaman

If someone asks you to sell them your firearm in a pub
What would you do ??

A) You would call the Guards
you would wonder how they knew you had a firearm
C) You would wonder why they asked you and
D) You would realise you had made an eejit out of yourselves waffling about your guns to people you shouldn't have been.

Boards is no different

----

People need to apply a smidgen of cop on when posting on fora such as this.

I have often (and sometimes been scolded for such - supposed back seat modding) highlighted to people that they should not post details such as locations or numbers of firearms, ammo, etc. or when and where they will be meeting up with a gang of people with a load of guns - on public fora.

People have tendency to want to show off their stuff - let rip - on the range - where you know whose mickey you are measuring!!

They are very naive if they think they are "showing it to their mates" - their mates will most likely see it on the range
When they post pictures of their firearms on the internet (with its serial number, their car reg, their house in the background) - they are informing the wider great unwashed as to what they have, who they are and where they took the picture.

Same when lads say - on a public fora - "I was in the ACME gunshop and he had hundreds of rifles/shotguns/pistols/spudguns in there and millions of such and such" - not only are they probably wrong - but they are creating a permanent record of that "fact" in the public domain - when there is no need for such - anyone who shoots will have heard the facts/rumours/lies on the range and the ACME gunshop will not appreciate too many details being posted on what they have on their premises without it being their own advertising.

Now - everyone is entitled to publish pictures of themselves in the buff with their rifle sticking out of their arse and holding a copy of their passport and ESB (Sorry - Electric Ireland) bill to allow them to be indentified - but it would be a bit daft and will no doubt attract the wrong kind of attention.

Restricting the forum would not change that - it just means that anyone who wants to have a look will pass the conditions to do so and have a nosey when it suits them - plenty on boards do that on other fora all the time.

When you were a kid - if you were not allowed out running around the fields - would it have prevented you from ripping the knees out of your trousers and getting a split lip by falling off stuff ??

No it wouldn't - liberal application of cop on is all that is needed here.

B'Man

daveob007

I was one who thought that restrictions on this site might be a good thing,I take it back,restricting the forum would be no help to new people or anyone interested in taking up the sport.
I have seen many cases where people who use facebook have pics of themselves holding their guns and giving loads of info about themselves,easy for anyone to find them if the wanted.
The whole point really of this thread was to alert us about the possibility of criminals trying to suss out where they might get guns easily and fishing for info.
Security and safety has been covered here so many times that members know how to look after themselves and their property but there are still the odd cases where members have put out an alert for their stolen guns.
Not saying that this forum has lead thieves to where guns can be found but we need be on alert all times.
As one poster here has already said,when advertising for sale be careful that you don't identify anything in the pics that could compromise your security,hide serial nos. etc and no landmarks in pics.
Just be wary of any offers or questions from buyers about your location etc.
Have a happy and safe new year.