A question for ethical vegans/vegetarians?

Stompbox

I've only recently embraced vegetarianism with the ultimate goal of eventually becoming vegan, but I adore the taste of eggs and cheese so I imagine it would be extremely difficult. I've been wondering, though. If I was to rear the animals responsible for producing these foods and ensured that they were treated with the best care and dignity that I could afford, would that be unethical of me? I mean, I already care for a wonderful Border Collie and I can't draw a distinction between the keeping of a dog and the keeping of a chicken or goat. The idea of readopting my former carnivorous ways (if the animal were to die of natural causes in my care) wouldn't sit right with me but I don't see anything unethical in using an egg from a hen or milk from a cow that I accord the same love and care that I demonstrate to my dog. The reason I've become disillusioned with the consumption of animal products is the ill-treatment they are subjected to by mainstream animal industry practices but I feel that by caring for the animals myself, I could effectively eliminate that injustice.

I'm just curious to see what other people think about this.

Raminahobbin

I wouldn't see a problem with it. I'm a pretty strict vegetarian and eat very very little by way of eggs/dairy, but my plan is to have chickens in the future and I certainly will be using their eggs. I see no ethical dilemma there, as long as the chickens live like Queens

I'm not sure how viable the whole milk and cheese end of things would be, It might turn into a bigger operation than you had initially planned- you'd have to seriously get into the craft side of things!! Of course, if the amount of work doesn't bother you, then same as above- I couldn't see a problem with it.

It all depends on your reasons for becoming vegetarian/vegan, but honestly, your plan doesn't sound like it's going to perpetuate any suffering so I think you're fine.

RussellTuring

You are ultimately the only person who can decide what you consider ethical behaviour but the reason I don't eat eggs is not just for the treatment of hens kept for laying but because of all of the surplus male chicks killed as soon as they hatch for being born with the wrong gender. If you can somehow acquire hens without this happening then I suppose it's not much of any issue but even so it's entirely unsustainable for fairly obvious biological reasons and thus I wouldn't do it. Whatever way you slice it, I don't think you'll be able to come up with a reliable, long-term source for eggs without killing some chickens unless you plan on keeping both the males and the females who stop producing.

Stompbox

RussellTuring wrote: »

You are ultimately the only person who can decide what you consider ethical behaviour but the reason I don't eat eggs is not just for the treatment of hens kept for laying but because of all of the surplus male chicks killed as soon as they hatch for being born with the wrong gender. If you can somehow acquire hens without this happening then I suppose it's not much of any issue but even so it's entirely unsustainable for fairly obvious biological reasons and thus I wouldn't do it. Whatever way you slice it, I don't think you'll be able to come up with a reliable, long-term source for eggs without killing some chickens unless you plan on keeping both the males and the females who stop producing.

Ah, I see, I failed to even consider that.

PurpleFistMixer

Some people disagree entirely with the idea of keeping animals at all, seeing it as slavery, and would argue that the quality of life is irrelevant as long as they are captives (slaves are still slaves if their quarters are fancy). Not me, but it is an argument against keeping chickens.

Stompbox

Presumably, that extends to the keeping of domesticated animals? tbh, I'm not hugely concerned with that argument, my family and I shower our dog with love and care and I can't recall the last time we coerced him into menial labour.

Raminahobbin

RussellTuring wrote: »

You are ultimately the only person who can decide what you consider ethical behaviour but the reason I don't eat eggs is not just for the treatment of hens kept for laying but because of all of the surplus male chicks killed as soon as they hatch for being born with the wrong gender. If you can somehow acquire hens without this happening then I suppose it's not much of any issue but even so it's entirely unsustainable for fairly obvious biological reasons and thus I wouldn't do it. Whatever way you slice it, I don't think you'll be able to come up with a reliable, long-term source for eggs without killing some chickens unless you plan on keeping both the males and the females who stop producing.

Would you not think that if the OP was to rescue ex-battery hens or take some hens off a rescue, and avoid getting a rooster, that the above would not be relevant? I know you are still choosing not to have a male, but the hens would still lay unfertilised eggs without a rooster and you would not be faced with the option of killing anything. As long as the OP is not relying on the eggs totally and just using them as they come, I couldn't see a problem. Once the current hens stop laying, get a couple of more and allow the others to retire.

Or maybe I'm being totally unethical... I don't really subscribe to the keeping animals as 'slaves' idea.

Stompbox

This, I also failed to consider! Good point.

RussellTuring

Raminahobbin wrote: »

Would you not think that if the OP was to rescue ex-battery hens or take some hens off a rescue, and avoid getting a rooster, that the above would not be relevant? I know you are still choosing not to have a male, but the hens would still lay unfertilised eggs without a rooster and you would not be faced with the option of killing anything. As long as the OP is not relying on the eggs totally and just using them as they come, I couldn't see a problem. Once the current hens stop laying, get a couple of more and allow the others to retire.

Or maybe I'm being totally unethical... I don't really subscribe to the keeping animals as 'slaves' idea.

For every hen that the OP buys, there was a male also born and most likely killed soon after birth. That for me is enough of an argument against keeping animals to produce a single type of food I can quite happily live without.

Rescued battery hens are certainly a good way to acquire hens if you really want to but each hen that is bought, no matter where from, increases the general demand for them and thus the number of males killed. It may be better than buying cheap supermarket eggs of dubious origin but I wouldn't see it as optimal; rather as a lesser evil.

I know that not everyone agrees animal captivity is necessarily cruel; that's why I don't use it as an argument.

Stompbox

So, maybe I should just steal a hen from an existing farm? I think that would be doing the animal quite a service! :pac:

RussellTuring

Sweet wrote: »

So, maybe I should just steal a hen from an existing farm? I think that would be doing the animal quite a service! :pac:

If you didn't eat eggs you could lessen the demand for the eggs in the first place.

happyturtle

I was thinking about it as well, but just to add something about cows. They will give you milk only when they were bred, so you will have to either take care of the calf or buy already 'milking' cow without the calf. If the calf happens to be a bull it can end up as a veal...

sweet-rasmus

Indeed, that is why many people chose to go vegan.

Cardinal Richelieu

Apart from animal treatment shouldn't being an ethical vegetarian/Vegan be also concerned with the treatment of the farmers/workers that grow the produce/mateials that they use?