Bit of help if you can

CiaranK

I'm not to sure what the best way to get over this problem is. I have a 6 month old Springer and in the past week or so if he gets something that he shouldn't (From the bin, clothes etc) and we try and get it off him he growls and shows his teeth, then when we get it he snaps at us, It is quiet scary because so far it is not like him to do that. I'm not sure the best way to deal with it. I was told that hitting him on the nose, a firm no and putting him out could help. I was also told about spraying water at him. I was also told about the coins in a can, That's the one I've tried and it doesn't work with him. He just wants to play with it.

Hope you can help me a bit,

Cheers.

tk123

Will he give you the stuff back for a treat? If so you could use that approach while you teach him leave/take/drop it - loads of videos on youtube etc or you could maybe try a local obedience class. My guy is very good with his leave/take/drop it command but will often rob stuff (usually socks) for the fun of blackmailing us for a treat lol!:rolleyes::pac:

Vince32

you could also try a little distraction, use a favourite toy - play with it like its the coolest toy on earth - show a real interest in in having a lot of fun with it. This is known as "charging" or "Loading" the toy. Once your dog shows he wants it move away a few feet and put it on the ground but keep playing with it. Your dog should move to collect it, as soon as it does, push the toy a few more feet away and let the dog have it.

You can now go collect the "bad" item, clothes or rubbish without the dog guarding it take it away and put it in an out of reach location.

If a dog is snarling or showing its teeth, hitting or tapping its nose could end up making the dog even more defensive / aggressive, and teach it that hurting an opponent is the correct way to gain its own way. Never a good idea, try to never physically punish your dog, because it won't understand what's happening or why its getting punished.

Note: disruptive dogs, or dogs that guard possessions are usually bored dogs, a poster on these forums (irishchick) recommends walking your dog for 5 mins / per month of age. eg. 6 months = 30 mins. once or twice a day to relieve boredom and spend its energy in a productive way, but don't run the dog, walk it calmly on leash and let it sniff about trees and bushes that you may pass.
Also, play games for 20 mins shortly after the walk is over, after the dog has had a chance to drink and rest a short while. Play games that will stimulate the dogs mind, and make it think and use it's nose and brain.
This will make the dog more tired than any amount of exercise.

A Game I like to play is 'Hide and Seek' find something with a potent smell, like one of its treats or a favourite toy.
Put the dog into a sit/stay state, and place the hiding object about 10 feet straight infront of the dog, and release the dog. It's reward is finding the item.
Next time, put the item further away and behind something, then release again, make the hiding place progressively more difficult, so the dog will have to use it's nose and brain to find the item.

Just remember to charge the toy before each turn to seek it, and not to make the toy impossible to find or reach, infact it should be very easy the first 20-40 times you play.and you should praise the dog heavily each time it wins a round.

This will create a healthy bond with owner and animal, and make for a better pet all around, it will also make the dog more compliant over time, don't expect miracles everything with animals takes days or weeks to accomplish but will pay huge dividends the more you practice good mental health for your dog.

CiaranK

Thanks folks!

I'll try the toy and treat approach.

I normally bring him for 2 half hour walks or one long 60 minute walk. Normally he is very good. He gets lots of love and play from all in the house. He just keeps going for the bins and clothes. He's left alone for about 2 hours, 4 and sometimes only 3 days a week. Normally he sleeps during the mornings anyway so he's just snoozing when he's alone. Then he gets play and walkies when we're back. I'm sure we can get him out of the habbit of it.

Thanks

CiaranK

Right, things aren't getting any better, and it's getting to breaking point in the house. He isn't learning at all. When we try and take something off him he won't give. He won't do the toy thing that was suggested in an earlier post. What we have been now doing is getting the thing off him and throwing him out the back. Then when he comes back in he keeps going for things. He's often snapped at us when we are bringing him outside and when we try and get it off him. We really don't know what to be doing.

crazygeryy

CiaranK wrote: »

Right, things aren't getting any better, and it's getting to breaking point in the house. He isn't learning at all. When we try and take something off him he won't give. He won't do the toy thing that was suggested in an earlier post. What we have been now doing is getting the thing off him and throwing him out the back. Then when he comes back in he keeps going for things. He's often snapped at us when we are bringing him outside and when we try and get it off him. We really don't know what to be doing.

Sorry for going slightly off topic but coins in a can? I've never heard of that what is it ?

And have u thought of bringing the the dog to a dog trainer? might be worth the few quid.

CiaranK

crazygeryy wrote: »

Sorry for going slightly off topic but coins in a can? I've never heard of that what is it ?

And have u thought of bringing the the dog to a dog trainer? might be worth the few quid.

Coins in the can is when you put Coins in an empty drinks can and tape the top closed, when you shake it is meant to scare the dog.

I was hoping I wouldn't need the dog trainer. I thought this would be and easy problem to overcome. Other than this he is very good.

**Vai**

He may be very good in every other situation Ciaran but if you let him have his own way like that he will start to take advantage in other situations.

I wouldnt bother with the coins or water or whatever else. I also wouldnt slap him or put him outside. If your ok about it you should just hold the other side of whatever he takes, dont pull it, just hold it. When he gets bored of it he will let it go and you will have proven your point. If you are scared of him I wouldnt do this because he will know. You cant back off, even if he does snap at you but as long as you remain calm he shouldnt take it that far. Otherwise, maybe a trainer would be able to help you out.

barbiegirl

Get the trainer in, it doesn't have to cost a fortune and can save your relationship with your dog. We had to get one on for our jack russell and it's the best thing we ever did, well other than adopting him and his big sister

JustAThought

It's far from perfect but try not to freak out. The dogs English isn't great & you re just starting to address this new problem.
He's a springer so fetching, retrieving, carrying & holding is in his genes. The give on command is something you have to be patient with & teach him. Possibly he's bored. Possibly he's being a brat. Possibly he has a strong prey drive & has yet to be taught to give it up/hand the goods over!!!

Here's a few thoughts that might be worth Turing.

Clear the place so he can't grab anything. If you have to live a Spartan existence from the knees/waist down for a while so be it. No" toys" no disobedience!!!

Bribery & coercion !! Try Two toys of equal value to the dog ( 2xballs, socks; whatever!) throw one , let him chase & enjoy it for a bit, throw the other hope he'll leave the first one & chase that & enjoy it for a bit, repeat a lot!!!

Supertreat! Sometimes my dog (HPR type also) won't give & so I ignore her, after 10 minutes she will get bored & come looking to play again. If it's a first iffense I will throw the toy again & try her with it again. Sometimes I will pick the toy up & reward her with a big treat (saying good give & treat even if she didn't give just so she gets the link!)
Sometimes it will work next time; sometimes not; I try & praise the good!!!

Sometimes I'm a superbitch & when there is a Mexican standoff I will ignore her & go to the fridge & take a big smell piece of cheese out ( her favourite) & slowly unwrap it & eat it in front if her as she watches & drools. It's really mean but she gets the point ; but nit even a sniff. The next time I offer her a supertreat for the toy it usually works. But my dog is extremely food motivated.

It takes finding whatever makes your dig tick & using it to your (& their ) advantage. Fir some digs it's a squeaky type toy . Fir others it's something moving/being thrown. Maybe the dog is just overbuzzed up & not tired out? have you tried leading the dog when she has the thing in her mouth & taking her out for a run!? It's abounds but find that can work too ... She forgets to be obsessed & finds something else to think about... Bit like giving a guy two types of blue movie...eventually he will change channels!!!

Vince32

You can't give in to him, if a toy doesn't work, use something that will, and really "charge" the item up.

I know "Charging" is a vague term, but you have to make him think what he has is rubbish, and what you have is totally awesome, put it on the ground and slap it back and forth between your hands, and try to enjoy it alot.

What justathought does is a perfect example of a food oriented dog, teasing him into submission, and it's not a bit cruel, laying down the lye of the land is something every dog owner has to endure at some point.

But until he starts yielding, take everything away from his space, tap down the bin lid if you have too, and "from the waist down" leave him nothing but his toys, and get him used to exchanging toys for treats.

I can't really type what I want to say here... so I found an entire page that sums it up, practical and informative with a Q&A at the bottom.

and don't beat yourself up, dogs sometimes are just dogs lol they get weird about stuff sometimes, but over a couple of days and 5-9 training sessions you will start to see results.

http://www.thatmutt.com/2010/03/26/how-to-break-a-dogs-possessiveness/

and if that doesn't work, start thinking about bringing someone in to help you along.

Good Luck

DBB

Vince, that link contains some pretty dangerous advice, and whilst "Ace" might allow his owner to "correct" him, or even worse for a possessive dog, take his dinner off him, in many cases (including, I suspect, the OP's), an owner will end up being bitten if they try doing this sort of stuff. Whether they show "weak energy" or not... Whatever "weak energy" is.
This blogger also speaks of dominance and "being pack leader". Sigh. When, oh when, will people who give out advice on dog behavioural issues, who have done no formal training whatsoever in the science of animal behaviour, ever realise that if they were keeping themselves up to date, and every professional should be keeping their training refreshed, that they'd have to stop using the disproven, deeply flawed "pack leader" approach?

How often does it need to be said? It has been disproven. Four simple words.

I don't believe that anyone would bring their sick child, or indeed themselves, to a doctor who was 20 years behind in his training and knowledge base, or who insisted on using treatments that are potentially dangerous and harmful when more enlightened methods are readily available.
Yet it clings on in dog circles... There's something about dogs where the "i've had dogs all my life" entrenched attitude appears to suffice as a qualification to give out half-cocked advice which, in this case, will get an owner bitten. The blogger in this case is a dog walker! How does that qualify her to give out behavioural advice? And worse, for it to be linked to as an appropriate source of advice?
For crying out loud, even Cesar Milan has copped himself on... This is a man who clearly demonstrated, in person, to a group of associates if mine, that he had no understanding of basic learning processes. But he went away in recent months and has clearly done some work on this, because his approach and advice now, in the clips i've seen anyway, are diametrically opposed to the utter quackery he used to come out with. It's good to see: he could yet turn out to be a powerful example to those who refuse to let go of their entrenched, mistaken beliefs.

OP, I'm happy to send you some literature to help you deal with your dog's resource guarding, if you'd like it. The advice is based on best behavioural principles, is sound, will not get you bitten, and will not distress your dog. Just let me know and I'll send it on.

marley123

What does he love?

Anything he is obsessed with? balls? Squeeky toys? as a reward for dropping he could get his favourite thing.

It is important to nip this in the bud sooner rather than later - I know of a very good trainer who travels - if you want his details just drop me a pm

Vince32

DBB, just did a word search in that article, and I'm not surprised to report she didn't mention "pack leader" once, but some of the posters did.

The word "dominance" was mentioned 1 time, in a description of a dogs interaction with children,

"You should definitely supervise the children and the dog whenever they are together. You can buy baby gates to block the dog in certain areas of the house so she doesn’t have to be in her crate when you are not watching her.

Besides biting the kids, does she show dominance over them in other ways? Does she jump all over them? Push them out of her way? Take their toys and run off? Usually there are other signs that the dog thinks she is in charge before actual biting/growling occurs. Your dog needs to know that all the people are in charge of her, including the kids."

I can't call this bad advice.


Could you please read the article again, steps 1-5 and tell me exactly where the problem is?

From starting to claim items the dog doesn't guard at first, being careful not to frustrate you dog.
using a leash for more control, and practising giving and taking away, and teaching the dog to wait.
Showing the dog that although it's in his mouth, the item (unguarded item) can be taken away at any time.
When the dog becomes aggressive or possessive trading for something of greater value, and not being timid or "weak energy" and showing confidence.

When your confident the dog will exchange anything with you, or surrender it without a fight, then the training is complete.

This and the rest of the article is good advice, I'm pretty sure you just skimmed the article, picked out some "buzz words" you feel offended by and made your little diatribe about newer and better training methods, and to add insult to injury, you compared the advice given on a par with Caesar Millan...

Just remember the author never spoke of taking food away, pack leader, and used the word dominance to describe behaviour toward children in a question to a poster.

Sorry for the rant, but if what this lady has posted in her blog is wrong, I would like to know why.

TooManyDogs

In point 2 of her blog she recommends taking away the dogs dinner

"It’s also a good idea to take your dog’s food away while he is eating. Have him sit or lie down, and then give the food back. If necessary, step over the bowl and move into your dog’s space the way a dominant dog would do."

To my mind that's horrendous advice. I firmly believe we should be able to take away our dogs food if it's absolutely necessary, in an emergancy situation but as a regular thing to do it's really not a good idea. In any group of dogs once a dog has possession of their food the others will not try to take it off them, no matter what 'rank' the dogs are. So to regularily take an already resourse-guarding dog's food would be one of the quickest ways of getting bitten to my mind.

Other parts of her advise are excellent, teaching 'leave it' commands, introducing items of higher value etc.

Vince32

Right, that's for training purposes, and yes it shouldn't be done regularly, but you should be able to do it, after much training without incident. Don't go putting your head into the lions mouth just yet.

http://youtu.be/iMaqwgWiBfU This is a good example of trading items, she says in her notes, NOT to trigger the guarding, but she did it herself to prove this was a real reactive dog. So find something of higher value and trade it with what you want back.

kylith

OP. I think it would be a good idea to clear the dog's area of anything it can get possessive over. Then start the 'Leave' or 'Drop' training with less high value items i.e. something the dog is a bit Meh about. It's been my experience that if they're having a great time doing what they're doing then all the bonios in the world won't distract them.

Present it to the dog, but maintain your hold on it too, so that you're each holding an end. Then produce a delicious treat; something like a bit of warm sausage. At the instant the dog lets go of the toy to take the treat say 'leave' or 'drop' and give the treat. After some practice the dog should link the word with the treat and you can say 'leave' before producing the treat. When you've got it 100% that way you can move onto things that are slightly more valuable to him, and work up from there.

CiaranK

Wow, thanks for the many responses.

I'll start with kylith's idea and work my way through them if unsuccessful.

Really appreciate it. I'll let you all know how I get on

DBB

Vince32 wrote: »

Right, that's for training purposes, and yes it shouldn't be done regularly, but you should be able to do it, after much training without incident. Don't go putting your head into the lions mouth just yet.

http://youtu.be/iMaqwgWiBfU This is a good example of trading items, she says in her notes, NOT to trigger the guarding, but she did it herself to prove this was a real reactive dog. So find something of higher value and trade it with what you want back.

Yes Vince, yet you posted her blog as advice to the owner of an already resouce-guarding dog. There is no indication in her advice about not putting your head into the lion's mouth: au contraire, as I point out below, she actively advocates putting your head into the lion's mouth, by advocating procedures one shouldn't do until the dog has already undergone a lot of training. But she doesn't address any of the underlying training one needs to do with an active resource-guarder.
And now I see you putting a link to a video where a woman has a dog she knows is resource guarding, and she actually takes the dog's head in her hands to move it from the food bowl, then stand there petting the dog while he eats?:eek:
The dog gave her a lot of warning signals before he even growled at her. Any qualified practitioner will never deliberately provoke aggression in a dog, and if the OP sees this video, and follows it, he's going to get bitten. That Rottie is either well along the road to being trained, or else is not a serious resource-guarder, because believe me, if you did what she did with a serious guarder, you'd be bitten. Again I say, to get to where the lady in this video is, a lot of homework should have been done: to post this advice without giving that critical background work is dangerous.

All of the steps as outlined by your blogger are okay with regard to preventing guarding in a dog who is not already guarding. However, for a dog who is actively resource guarding, her advice is dangerous:

"If you dog is possessive around rawhide, you're going to have to present rawhides to him every day and correct him every time he becomes possessive".

That is not how you stop a dog being possessive about rawhides. To get him giving up a rawhide he's possessing over, you do not start with rawhides at all. To get to the stage where you can take a rawhide off him, an owner has to go through a long process before they should attempt to try such prized objects as rawhides. Any attempt to by-pass the homework will result in failure.

Does she indicate anywhere what she means by "correcting" the dog? she uses it a lot, but doesn't say in that article what she means? In any case, her advice to correct the dog "the second he becomes possessive", and again to correct the dog "the second he goes for it" is not best advice on how to treat a resource-guarder. You might get away with it with a non-guarder, but great care is required when the dog is already possessing, and I don't see this lady advising safely in this regard.

Even the advising to give dogs nice treats when they give up a prized object, it's not wrong as such, but it's not right either. Not for a resource-guarding dog. Again, fine for preventing the problem, but not enough when it comes to dealing with the problem when it's already there.

She goes on to say:
"Once he has it in his mouth, take it away again but give it back as a reward".
Is she serious :eek:
If she had ever dealt with a resource-guarder, and not just talking about "Ace" who seems to form the basis of her advice for all dogs, she would know that trying to take an object off the resource-guarder in the first place is exactly the time the dog bites. Again, her advice seems good on the face of it, but there's a lot missing. In light of the fact that she has completely missed out on the early, foundation-building homework, is giving readers the wrong impression and potentially putting them in danger.

Similarly
"To get the desired object away from your dog once he is showing aggression, I recommend using the "trade" method"

Again, the trade method, whilst effective, cannot work without a lot of foundation-building work preceding it. Again, she is skipping from A to Z without addressing the alphabet in between, yet it is critical for a resource-guarder to go through these interim steps before attempting to trade for a prized object.

You say:
"When your (sic) confident the dog will exchange anything with you, or surrender it without a fight, then the training is complete."

Sounds reasonable. But how do you get to the stage when you can be confident? Where in the article does she go through the mechanisms, with an actively resource-guarding dog, to get to the stage where you can exchange anything with the dog? She doesn't. That's what makes her advice, and your linking to her advice, just risky.

So, in short, my problem with this lady is not that her advice is wrong. My problem is that her advice is not right either. It is mistimed and misdirected, and that's the difference between someone who's tinkering around the edges, and someone who has been trained to get to the crux of the problem and treat it appropriately from start to finish. If I wanted advice on how to bring dogs for walks, I'd ask this blogger. But I don't know you would link through to an advice blog written by someone who is not qualified to give out the advice she's giving out... there are websites out there written by people who are qualified, and the standard of advice is streets ahead. However, as resource guarding is a complex issue involving serious safety issues, advice websites by qualified people tend not to advise on aggression. resource guarding via the medium of the internet, because some problems need to have one-to-one intervention and it's simply not appropriate to take on to advise via a website. But that's the difference between the qualified behaviourist and the tinkerer-around the edges: the qualified person knows what's appropriate for each situation.

You can't see why this is bad advice:

Besides biting the kids, does she show dominance over them in other ways? Does she jump all over them? Push them out of her way? Take their toys and run off? Usually there are other signs that the dog thinks she is in charge before actual biting/growling occurs. Your dog needs to know that all the people are in charge of her, including the kids."

The reason it's bad is because dogs don't jump on kids because they're trying to dominate the kids.They do it because it's hilarious fun, and then it becomes normalised, so the dog knows no other way of greeting the kids. It's bad manners, but that's not the same thing as being dominant.
It is clearly evidenced that it is not dominance that is motivating the dog, because it can be quickly fixed by teaching the dog some new greeting skills. I'm inclined to think that is a dog was knocking people over because she's dominant, it's going to take more than a piece of chicken to convince her to behave a different way.
What's more, have you ever seen the look on an owner's face when you (wrongly) tell them their dog is trying to dominate them? It can seriously change the way an owner feels about their dog: it can break the bond, it can distance the owner from the dog, and worst of all, it can actually make some owners abuse their dog. So unlike you, that's why I see this as bad advice.
I was reading through the blog (not just "skimming it" as suggested), thinking it wasn't bad in places, but as soon as I see any advice-giver mentioning dominance in the context she did, I immediately know they're not trained in behaviour, and that they're largely winging it when it comes to giving advice.

You somewhat missed my point about Cesar. Cesar has gone off and educated himself, and if you watch the latest clips of his shows, you will see him using treats, explaining learnin priinciples, and generally doing a better job than he used to. I won't ever much like the man, but I have to hand it to him for taking some responsibility and getting himself educated in the material he's advising people to do.

Just as an aside, I don't know why you felt you had to use belittling language like saying I had "picked out some buzz words" (which is wrong. I read the article, believe me), or that I made my "little diatribe about newer and better training methods" (they're not new. There is nothing new about using positive and knowledgeable approaches to training)... just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you have to attempt to belittle. Indeed, I have pulled you up on other links you've put up before to advice that was really short of the mark, again by unqualified people. On behalf of other posters, I'd appreciate if you'd choose your articles, blogs, and advice-givers with a bit more care before posting it as advice. Indeed, when it comes to real behavioural issues like resource guarding, it is far more appropriate that posters are directed towards a qualified practitioner who can give them the right advice, rather than what has happened here.

portgirl123

all i can add is i got advise from dbb re my daughters dog who had bad guarding, got so bad no one could get near anything the dog was guarding, growling snapping etc . only for dbb i dont know if my daughter would of kept her dog. after only a few months of sound advise i can honestly say its a new dog, who though not 100% cured you could say he is 99%.

CiaranK

He's gotten alot worse, He was starting to get better and now he has just turned worse than he was. Snapping like crazy when we go near him. It's getting to be unbearable. As I said he was slowly getting there. He won't let you take him by the collar anymore. My arms are in bits from him biting. Thanks for the tips anyways folks

barbiegirl

Please get a proper trainer/behaviourist in. The 80 quid we spent for our jack Russell was the best money we ever spent on him. Please get professional help before you give up on him completely.

CiaranK

It's looking like thats the only option, This morning he bit my mother and went for her face, luckily he didn't break the skin. We are all becoming afraid to go near him now. Having a dog shouldn't be like this. Cause As i said before when he's good he's really good.

barbiegirl

A proper behaviourist will really help and at least you feel that you've given him every chance. Also don't forget if he wanted to break the skin he would have he still has some restraint. Where are you based?

CiaranK

Thank I'm in Dublin 3. I think Clontarf Vets do them maybe? And there is one in Artane too I think?

CiaranK

Just a bit of an update regarding the little fella (Well not so little now)

He has gotten a lot better, thankfully, still has the occasional outburst where might snap/bite. But it is now very manageable. I was in touch with a trainer, ans we told him what we have been doing. And he said sometimes all it takes is shouting at him and a slap on the bottom. So at first I was really against this. I wouldn't want to ever hurt an animal. But we thought we may aswell try it as he would need to be put down otherwise. So after a few times he seemed to get the message. Things still aren't great with him and he has a long way to go before he is perfect, but it is a lot more pleasant to have him now than before

tk123

CiaranK wrote: »

J I was in touch with a trainer, ans we told him what we have been doing. And he said sometimes all it takes is shouting at him and a slap on the bottom.

Your "trainer" is the one who needs a slap tbh. I wouldn't lay a hand on a dog especially one that's been snapping as you're going to end up with major problems. Go and see a proper behaviourist.

CiaranK

tk123 wrote: »

Your "trainer" is the one who needs a slap tbh. I wouldn't lay a hand on a dog especially one that's been snapping as you're going to end up with major problems. Go and see a proper behaviourist.

He did say a ''lot of people won't agree with me at all, but sometimes dogs need to be shown there place.''

I only done it because it was the last straw, and it's something I had to really think hard about. I would never want to hurt him, I'm an animal lover totally, I hate any kind of abuse. And it's not excessive. Only needed to do it a few times and it really killed me to do it aswell, like it really upset me.

boomerang

It makes me very sad that that guy gets paid for giving out that kind of advice.

Ciaran it really wasn't the last straw, because a good, qualified behaviourist would have shown you how to change your dog's behaviour in a humane and effective way that everybody in the family could follow. Just bear that in mind for next time, ok?

CiaranK

boomerang wrote: »

Ciaran it really wasn't the last straw, because a good, qualified behaviourist would have shown you how to change your dog's behaviour in a humane and effective way that everybody in the family could follow. Just bear that in mind for next time, ok?

Sorry, but in my opinion it was the last straw, I tried everything I was advised to do and then it didn't work so I went to see someone about it. That is what they said to do. I tried what they said, as much as I didn't want too but they are the professionals, and it actually worked.

tk123

CiaranK wrote: »

as much as I didn't want too but they are the professionals.

What qualifications does your trainer have out of interest?