The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2012

Ildere

The county board had an easy job to get 3 men to take on the most promising team in the game in 2010.
In fact it was so easy that they gave it out without any great worries about experience or suitability for the job.
We have learned a lot about it in the last 2 years, going from one disaster to another and finally, yesterday, the biggest embarrassment in Tipperary hurling history.

I wish the county board luck in finding the next 3 men as our history with managers leads me to believe that the calibre of those who will want the job, will not deliver any progress and the men who could do it will keep well away.

Until we hit rock bottom, then a suitable candidate will emerge if the quality of players are there of course at that stage.

We could have a very long wait for all the ducks to line up.

greyhound365

Ildere wrote: »

The county board had an easy job to get 3 men to take on the most promising team in the game in 2010.
In fact it was so easy that they gave it out without any great worries about experience or suitability for the job.
We have learned a lot about it in the last 2 years, going from one disaster to another and finally, yesterday, the biggest embarrassment in Tipperary hurling history.

I wish the county board luck in finding the next 3 men as our history with managers leads me to believe that the calibre of those who will want the job, will not deliver any progress and the men who could do it will keep well away.

Until we hit rock bottom, then a suitable candidate will emerge if the quality of players are there of course at that stage.

We could have a very long wait for all the ducks to line up.

Not trying to defend the performance yesterday but in fairness to the board, Declan and Tommy were fairly obvious picks considering their success with the minors..

Ildere

Managing under 18s is a very poor preparation for taking on that job.

I think Declan Ryan is a fantastic man and as a player he was one of our best.

Tommy Dunne was a great player also.

I dont know anything at all about the third man.

My only point is this, the manager of our county team is probably the most important job of the lot and to be given that job, we should expect a track record of achievement in a similar role.
Many have taken on the job, and been given the job, with a wish that it would work out, and for the most part it hasn't.

If we just give the job to whichever high profile player of the past who expresses an interest, then our hard earned cash spent supporting the team will be wasted on an experiment, year in and year out.

The time for taking a chance is gone.

But who will take it on now, thats the question.

Tipperary animal lover

Was just gonna sit down now and watch the match but my heart is just not in it so I deleted it...... I'm still in shock, county board gonna find it hard to bring a good quality manager if there's one out there that suits! Who really wants to take on a poison chalice that will be offered..... What most the likes of Kelly calinane be thinking after training all year and to see the likes of o'neill coming off the bench. It's going to take a long time to get over this hammering we got.
The likes of Clare cork limerick will really be hoping to get us in first round next year ....

Ildere

Ildere wrote: »

Managing under 18s is a very poor preparation for taking on that job.

I think Declan Ryan is a fantastic man and as a player he was one of our best.

Tommy Dunne was a great player also.

I dont know anything at all about the third man.

My only point is this, the manager of our county team is probably the most important job of the lot and to be given that job, we should expect a track record of achievement in a similar role.
Many have taken on the job, and been given the job, with a wish that it would work out, and for the most part it hasn't.

If we just give the job to whichever high profile player of the past who expresses an interest, then our hard earned cash spent supporting the team will be wasted on an experiment, year in and year out.

The time for taking a chance is gone.

But who will take it on now, thats the question.

On that note i believe the minors he finished up with in 2008 werent very happy with him. When they were up the creek he had no answer on the sideline.
Rumour also has it that Nicky English was willing to take the job but they wouldnt leave him pick his own selection team which is ludicrous. Granted the boys took a job that there wasnt huge candidacy for but thats just not good enough really. Donal Grady was available in 2011 even if he was to keep momentum going for one year, but the county board have this bizarre idea that we are allergic to outsiders. Bulls*it.

Im sure Lar Corbett, Eoin Kelly etc would much prefer to work under management with a plan and tactics from outside the county then 3 lads from inside the county who haven't a bulls notion what they are doing.

I wonder do half that county board even have any interest in the games? Money was ploughed into Johnny Evans the last 4 years and he was exposed big time. We have this farce of 32 clubs at senior hurling with some clubs almost refusing to take a drop down. We had the Carrick Swan Saga followed by the relegation saga and we have most of the same gobdawns that have overseen the bad times in charge the last 30 odd years.

William Maher and David Power are 2 young and raw coaches yet but these guys are the future. Ken Hogan isnt a bad manager in the great scheme of things and fostered great team spirit but he is unwilling, perhaps understandably to make the step up.

Since 2008 Tipperary have proved that a team can rapidly improve as well as decline. Jim McGuinness and Anthony Cunningham seem to have had a positive effect on their respective counties. They brought fresh ideas and belief and continue to mould their team. I seen nothing but devolution since 2011 with Tipperary

premierstone

Ildere wrote: »

Managing under 18s is a very poor preparation for taking on that job.

Hindsight is a great thing, who would you have given the job to two years ago, infact who else actually wanted it, it was a no win situation and they were on a hiding to nothing.

Not in any way defending the job they did by the way, just think it is extremely harsh to blame the County board after the fact, when the appointment was widely hearlded at the time.

What was Cody's track record as a manger before he was appointed to the KK job??

premierstone

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

What most the likes of Kelly calinane be thinking after training all year and to see the likes of o'neill coming off the bench.

Kelly was injured and not even togged and John O'Neil was responsible for 2 of the 6 scores our forwards scored from play yesterday dont think anyone can question that substitution.

Tipperary animal lover

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Was just gonna sit down now and watch the match but my heart is just not in it so I deleted it...... I'm still in shock, county board gonna find it hard to bring a good quality manager if there's one out there that suits! Who really wants to take on a poison chalice that will be offered..... What most the likes of Kelly calinane be thinking after training all year and to see the likes of o'neill coming off the bench. It's going to take a long time to get over this hammering we got.
The likes of Clare cork limerick will really be hoping to get us in first round next year ....

To a young and hungry manager just as Sheedy was in 08 the job is probably that bit less pressurised now if there is such thing with the Tipp senior job. Surely to god there is a man with ideas and a plan out there.

Ildere

premierstone wrote: »

Hindsight is a great thing, who would you have given the job to two years ago, infact who else actually wanted it, it was a no win situation and they were on a hiding to nothing.

Not in any way defending the job they did by the way, just think it is extremely harsh to blame the County board after the fact, when the appointment was widely hearlded at the time.

What was Cody's track record as a manger before he was appointed to the KK job??

Well its so long ago and he has become so successful, it doesnt matter what his track record was.
But he stayed on year after year. I expect he was offered many jobs in the media but he stays with the team.

Former Tipp hurlers were Surprised when the appointments were made in 2010.
If there was no one else to consider then supporters like me are being taken for a ride.

Hindsight as you call it, teaches us lessons, and there is a big lesson to be learned from this latest humiliation, a very expensive lesson.

I have learned that I wont waste any more money following and supporting
until the county board fill the position of manager with a qualified candidate,
and in my opinion, that doesnt include some success with the minors.

premierstone

premierstone wrote: »

Hindsight is a great thing, who would you have given the job to two years ago, infact who else actually wanted it, it was a no win situation and they were on a hiding to nothing.

Not in any way defending the job they did by the way, just think it is extremely harsh to blame the County board after the fact, when the appointment was widely hearlded at the time.

What was Cody's track record as a manger before he was appointed to the KK job??

Thats true. I dont even think he managed at his club but many like Joe Hennessy, his former teammate, would tell you they seen his genius long before it was realised. I do think the county board should open up the policy of picking managers by considering a good manager from outside the county. The danger of that though we could end up with a Davy Fitz type as easily as we could end up with a Donal O'Grady type

Ildere

Colm Bonnar.

premierstone

Ildere wrote: »

Colm Bonnar.

So winning Minor AI's is not an adequate qualification, but winning Fitzgibbons and failure with Wexford is??

Royal Legend

Deleted User wrote: »

The time is nearly upon us for the 2012 season. Got my season ticket in the post the other day and im raring to go.

Lets bring back Liam for starters and hopefully a few more in either code after that

Án Premier Abú

"Lets bring Liam back for starters"

Prophetic words if ever were wrote
Only its Liam Sheedy you need to come back

premierstone

Ildere wrote: »

Well its so long ago and he has become so successful, it doesnt matter what his track record was.

So what are you saying do track records matter or not, Im confused, as I said earlier hindsight is a great thing. Brian Cody is the greatest manager either code has ever seen and had no experience what so ever, infact in comparison Declan Ryan was over qualified!

County Board are far from blameless and without fault but to castigate them for not been physic is a little harsh.

hinault

Shambolic doesn't do justice to the what we saw yesterday from Tipperary, especially so in the second half of the match.

Tipp's performance was truly dreadful.

I think several players need to take a long hard look at themselves and seriously consider their future as county players.
Curran, Stapleton, O'Mahoney were not just bad, they were appallingly bad.

The management team need to be replaced en masse.
There are no excuses or explanations that can be put forward for that performance.

I'm hearing a lot of conspiracy theories about what went on in the camp and in particular what happened yesterday at half time too.
No doubt others are hearing similar rumours.

Supporters paid good money for tickets to see that Tipperary team play in CP yesterday.
The expense of the tickets and the cost of travelling to and from the game are considerable.
They deserve an explanation as to what happened and who was responsible for what happened.

mags85

Ildere wrote: »

Managing under 18s is a very poor preparation for taking on that job.

I think Declan Ryan is a fantastic man and as a player he was one of our best.

Tommy Dunne was a great player also.

I dont know anything at all about the third man.

My only point is this, the manager of our county team is probably the most important job of the lot and to be given that job, we should expect a track record of achievement in a similar role.
Many have taken on the job, and been given the job, with a wish that it would work out, and for the most part it hasn't.

If we just give the job to whichever high profile player of the past who expresses an interest, then our hard earned cash spent supporting the team will be wasted on an experiment, year in and year out.

The time for taking a chance is gone.

But who will take it on now, thats the question.

Sheedy had managed minors before the seniors, so are you saying he wasn't qualified? Or what about Nicky English? Had he managed any team before the seniors?

Also the first time babs managed tipp he was successful so by your statement he was qualified but that didn't make him any good 2nd time round

Dont get me wrong I'm not defending Ryan, I think he was a bad choice along with Dunne, I just dont understand your statement of being qualified for the job.

Royal Legend

Royal Legend wrote: »

"Lets bring Liam back for starters"

Prophetic words if ever were wrote
Only its Liam Sheedy you need to come back

Id tried to at least generate positivity but tbh ill find it very hard to do the same in 2013. I doubt that the last management team will come back but its a shocking situation when a so called 'hurling mad county' have a worrying shortage of decent coaches.

I hate to run down Declan and Tommy for what they done for Tipperary hurling as players but as coaches they came up short. They came in with a winning mentality no doubt having won a minor but the difference in the minor game with regards to training regimes etc is probably worlds apart from the senior game. Track record is not as necessarily important i suppose but you'd have to have some ideas going forward. Declan never struck me as a man who was in touch with the modern senior game. Eoin Kelly once said in an interview that Declan was 'shocked' when he seen the amount of shoulder challenges that went in in training. I like to know did the management ever watch DVDs of the opposition or of our own games afterwards to see areas we could improve because there was a huge pattern in the errors we made all year.

I can remember Lar saying that Eamon O'Shea had it instilled in them the importance of decision making an ownership of decisions and having the responsibility and freedom to change their game when things went wrong but yesterday it would seem the players were told stick to the gameplan no matter what.

alan27

Its a hard defeat to take. Since we won the AI in 2010, we havent beaten KK and never looked like beating them in any meetings. Some people might say some of those matches were league meetings but KK didn't seem to look at it that way, they set out to right the wrongs of 2010 and they have done.

I still believe this Tipp team has more AI's in them and have age on their side with alot of the players. In my opinion whether its Ryan and co or another team next year, Tipp need to do a clean sweep League, Munster and All Ireland like 2001 to prove they are a real force or at least Munster and AI since thats also has not been done since 2001.

But I have to say the more defeats we take off KK, 2010 is starting to look like a one off performance, which kills me to say.

If any of you ever watched ''The Trilogy'' programme based on the three previous AI's, Cummins says we would have trained every night of the week with Eamon O'Shea if we could have. I just wonder was that same feeling there for any of this management team. Also I'm not saying bring Liam and co back, I'm just saying that it seems the players would have went and killed for that previous management as was the desire and motivation instilled in them, I don't think its the same case for the current management team however.

As to who to bring in its anybody's guess, but if there is to be a new management outside and inside the county must be considered because its all about success at the end of the day.

OAOB

If Liam won't come back I'd love to see Eamonn O'Shea given the job. He was such an important part of what Sheedy did and the players would definitely give 100% for him.
We've still a good panel there and plenty of young players coming through but we need someone who will lead them.
I don't think our players are 18 points worse than KK but yesterday our management and tactics were

OAOB

OAOB wrote: »

If Liam won't come back I'd love to see Eamonn O'Shea given the job. He was such an important part of what Sheedy did and the players would definitely give 100% for him.
We've still a good panel there and plenty of young players coming through but we need someone who will lead them.
I don't think our players are 18 points worse than KK but yesterday our management and tactics were

Even if Ryan had to have O'Shea with him he'd have been ok i feel. He was probably the real deal in terms of coaching with Sheedy being more of the motivator

Royal Legend

Ryan looked and sounded a broken man on Sunday. He knew, or at least you should hope he knew, that he had made a huge error tactically. Its also possible that the whole setup was wrong from the getgo, but only Ryan and his team will know that, once they are totally honest with themselves.
From the outside, I never got the impression that Declan Ryan was the right man to lead Tipp, but I do feel sorry for him as you can tell last Sunday hurt him in a big way, not embarrassment, but you could sense that he felt they had let the Tipperary people down.
Like I stated, Ryan has never given the impression of a inter county manager, personally I think, some of the best ones are usually cracked, or come across as obsessed, Fitzpatrick from Louth, Loughnane, people with one single purpose, a belief that they are going to win and leaving no stone unturned, Sheedy was that type, he threw everything into it, thats why he had to give it up, its all consuming.
I would not worry too much, you are not 18 points worse than Kilkenny, you have the players, you have talent coming through, its just a matter of finding the right person to lead them, Hogan imo has that attitude you need, and surely after Sunday, following Ryan into the managers job is a lot easier that following Sheedy, as there will be no major expectations now.

Royal Legend

Royal Legend wrote: »

Ryan looked and sounded a broken man on Sunday. He knew, or at least you should hope he knew, that he had made a huge error tactically. Its also possible that the whole setup was wrong from the getgo, but only Ryan and his team will know that, once they are totally honest with themselves.
From the outside, I never got the impression that Declan Ryan was the right man to lead Tipp, but I do feel sorry for him as you can tell last Sunday hurt him in a big way, not embarrassment, but you could sense that he felt they had let the Tipperary people down.
Like I stated, Ryan has never given the impression of a inter county manager, personally I think, some of the best ones are usually cracked, or come across as obsessed, Fitzpatrick from Louth, Loughnane, people with one single purpose, a belief that they are going to win and leaving no stone unturned, Sheedy was that type, he threw everything into it, thats why he had to give it up, its all consuming.
I would not worry too much, you are not 18 points worse than Kilkenny, you have the players, you have talent coming through, its just a matter of finding the right person to lead them, Hogan imo has that attitude you need, and surely after Sunday, following Ryan into the managers job is a lot easier that following Sheedy, as there will be no major expectations now.

Your fairly right in what you say but i dunno about Hogan taking the job in fairness. He's also a very nice man is Ken but the other night he made a few blunders on the line aswell in the u21s. Sean Curran was having a mare and he left him on nearly the entire match. Denis Maher and Dan McCormack in the middle were also very poor. The last 10 minutes our defence was hanging on for dear life and he should have dropped back one or two to help out. Ken gets a fair bit right to be fair to him and is better then Decky but still a bit green in areas. I suppose so was Sheedy tho. Im not sure he would take the job anyhow. He along with Richie Stakelum turned it down in 2010.

Royal Legend

Deleted User wrote: »

Your fairly right in what you say but i dunno about Hogan taking the job in fairness. He's also a very nice man is Ken but the other night he made a few blunders on the line aswell in the u21s. Sean Curran was having a mare and he left him on nearly the entire match. Denis Maher and Dan McCormack in the middle were also very poor. The last 10 minutes our defence was hanging on for dear life and he should have dropped back one or two to help out. Ken gets a fair bit right to be fair to him and is better then Decky but still a bit green in areas. I suppose so was Sheedy tho. Im not sure he would take the job anyhow. He along with Richie Stakelum turned it down in 2010.

There is a huge difference in taking the job after Sheedy and taking the job after last Sunday. Whoever takes the job now, performances will be compared to last Sunday, not 2010, so the pressure is less IMO.

I am from Meath, and no one in their right mind wanted the Meath job after Boylan, Colm Coyle was very good, but took on the job too soon, O'Rourke kept away from it as well, we are at a lowish ebb as well, so with Banty gone, some of the bigger names may go for it, although our county board have made a mess of it previously.

alan27

Ken Hogan got his shot at Tipp Senior Management all be it with a weaker team than the current panel. I just think it would be a step back to appoint him again. Someone new, young, enthusiastic and with fresh ideas whether that be inside or outside the county in my opinion.

Donadea Leo

There are a few differences with 2010, I think we have a huge problem down the right side of our defence - the loss of Declan Fanning is huge - with all due respect to our players there at the moment, his aggression and physicality allowed him to cut out runners and attacks down that side.

Kilkenny's goals almost all came from that, it's also were they targeted us last year.

The difference between kilkenny and us is this we have a weakness they can exploit and its easy to spot - they don't, there isn't an obvious line or area to target.

We've also lost Eoin Kelly who has been our best hurler for years and years - he owes us nothing and even though in 2010 he was nearing an end of his career his guile and experience was huge in us overturning Kilkenny - Lar is a great hurler in his own way but he is not the reliable consistent score getter Eoin Kelly was. All the best teams have someone like this, Shefflin, previously D.J. Carey and now Joe Canning for Galway.

I do think Liam Sheedy was a great manager and brought another level but we also have to face facts and address some obvious weaknesses in the team.

robbiezero

Deleted User wrote: »

I had heard that Seamie had somewhat of a 'dispute' with a relative of one of the management and hasnt seen a minute since. He can be very windy too but we probably should have made a few subs after goal number 2 went in. We made a spectacular balls up today. As the saying goes the definition of insanity is to repeat the same things and expect different results. We made the same sloppy errors as last September. Great big gaps you could land a plane in. I wonder did Ryan even look at a DVD of Kilkenny since he took the job. Cody had us analysed like a scientist.

We learned absolutely nothing from last year. Scored 1-16 last year, 1-15 this year. Forward unit particularly half forward line absolutely annihilated in both years as well as being well beaten in midfield.
The difference last year was that our defence was a very good unit especially our full back line. We conceded 2-17 to Kilkenny last year which was actually not bad considering how dominant they were further out the field.

All this year our defence has been in trouble, lacking pace and players out of form and got absolutely destroyed in the second half v Kilkenny. Even in the first half the signs were ominous when Kilkenny ran at them.

alan27

@Donadea Leo

In relation to the right side,

I think Brendan Maher would be perfect for the number 5 jersey, I thought he would start there in last years decider instead of O'Keeffe.

robbiezero

Donadea Leo wrote: »

There are a few differences with 2010, I think we have a huge problem down the right side of our defence - the loss of Declan Fanning is huge - with all due respect to our players there at the moment, his aggression and physicality allowed him to cut out runners and attacks down that side.

Kilkenny's goals almost all came from that, it's also were they targeted us last year.

The difference between kilkenny and us is this we have a weakness they can exploit and its easy to spot - they don't, there isn't an obvious line or area to target.

We've also lost Eoin Kelly who has been our best hurler for years and years - he owes us nothing and even though in 2010 he was nearing an end of his career his guile and experience was huge in us overturning Kilkenny - Lar is a great hurler in his own way but he is not the reliable consistent score getter Eoin Kelly was. All the best teams have someone like this, Shefflin, previously D.J. Carey and now Joe Canning for Galway.

I do think Liam Sheedy was a great manager and brought another level but we also have to face facts and address some obvious weaknesses in the team.

O'Mahonys lack of pace is now a huge problem. Padraig Maher needed to be moved centre back early on in that game.

Donadea Leo

I'm not sure if he'd have the discipline for it but I'd like to see Shane McGrath at no. 5, bring Woodlocke into midfield leaving Brendan Maher to try and get forward a bit.

Padraig Maher I think looks more like a full back than centre back, I'm not sure if Paul Curran is mobile enough for Centre Back with another option to try Conor O' Mahoney on the wing - though again lack of pace may be an issue.

Its hard to know what's going wrong up front the talent is definately there - Noel McGrath could take on the Eoin Kelly mantle but seems to fade in and out of games. We do need to try and get back to Kilkenny and hopefully after Sept 9th Galway too.

hinault

My two cents worth.

I don't think Tipp have become a bad team.
There isn't an 18 point difference in ability, hardwork between KK and Tipp.

But there is possibly an 18 point difference in attitude between both teams.

The difference in attitude between players on both sides for one.

KK looked far more hungry and far more willing to run themselves in to the ground (not that they had to).
One sensed that if they were asked to run for the entire 70 minutes of the game that each and every KK would try to do so.
The same attitude was missing entirely from the majority of Tipp players last Sunday.
With the exception of Brendan Cummins (as usual), I didn't see each and every Tipp player give 100% effort out there.
Many didn't even bother to try at all and I've named three earlier in this thread.

The other attitude I referred to was the difference in attitude between the KK management and Tipp management.
An example would be in the dying minutes of the match with the game effectively over.
KK were 17 points ahead of Tipp.
TJ Reid arguably KK's best player missed a point.
Brian Cody went absolutely ballistic and started to berate Reid (who I thought was unlucky not to be MOTM).
Contrast this with Tipp management.
As the Tipp team's performance began to implode in the second half of the game, what did the Tipp management do?