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The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2012
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My two cents worth.
I don't think Tipp have become a bad team.
There isn't an 18 point difference in ability, hardwork between KK and Tipp.
But there is possibly an 18 point difference in attitude between both teams.
The difference in attitude between players on both sides for one.
KK looked far more hungry and far more willing to run themselves in to the ground (not that they had to).
One sensed that if they were asked to run for the entire 70 minutes of the game that each and every KK would try to do so.
The same attitude was missing entirely from the majority of Tipp players last Sunday.
With the exception of Brendan Cummins (as usual), I didn't see each and every Tipp player give 100% effort out there.
Many didn't even bother to try at all and I've named three earlier in this thread.
The other attitude I referred to was the difference in attitude between the KK management and Tipp management.
An example would be in the dying minutes of the match with the game effectively over.
KK were 17 points ahead of Tipp.
TJ Reid arguably KK's best player missed a point.
Brian Cody went absolutely ballistic and started to berate Reid (who I thought was unlucky not to be MOTM).
Contrast this with Tipp management.
As the Tipp team's performance began to implode in the second half of the game, what did the Tipp management do?
Other then hunger and desire which is obvious, Id put my hand up and say there is a world of difference between Tipp and Kilkenny in more sectors then we think. For starters Kilkenny have an ideal 12 team senior club championship which is very competitive and none of this divisional and outdated bulls*it we have here in Tipp. We have 32 teams which is a bananas scenario. Half of them would struggle at junior in Kilkenny let alone intermediate. We need a more accurate grading system here. Half of our senior clubs and im sorry to be saying this but they are dirt. Hurling in the towns besides Thurles and to a lesser degree Templemore, Carrick and Nenagh is in an awful state.
Other then Donncha Fahy of St Marys and Theo English of Marlfield i cannot think of another Clonmel (or thereabouts) hurler that has played senior for Tipp. Seamus Kennedy may do it in the future but its a big ask.
Club hurling in Kilkenny from senior to junior is very competitive and you see the likes of John Lockes and St Patricks who hail from 2 reasonably sized towns in Callan and Ballyragget respectively battling to get out of junior. You see the likes of Derek Lyng, Taggy Fogarty, and Richie Doyle picked for Kilkenny panels despite hurling at junior level either at present or not so long ago yet i dont think we will see a young fellow from the likes of Ballylooby/Castlegrace or St Patricks of Drangan and Cloneen pulling on the blue and gold at senior level soon. Part of that is down to poor hurling there and partly down to the mentality of selection panels needing to change. Id hope that young Bill Maher dont fall by the wayside because of mere Geography.
Young Irelands of Gowran who have famous hurlers in the past such as DJ and Charlie Carter are now slugging it in the intermediate division despite competing for counties up to six years ago. Did they kick up a fuss like Cashel KC did here when they found themselves in a position to be relegated and start pulling every trick in the book? By f*ck they didnt.
Both their approaches are similar in terms of strength and conditioning, nutritionists, psychologists etc, but in Kilkenny, the threat of losing your place on the team on that Friday night looms large whereas we boast of having a great panel yet played a Centre Back with a broken toe on Sunday and our wing back had to have a pain killing injection administered before the match. So much for Strength in depth.
I could think of plenty of more feasible reasons why Tipp are lagging behind. Tactically i dont think Declan and Tommy are up to it but there is alot more factors involved then we realise0 -
Went to the game on Sunday. Utterly astounded and devastated.
First off. Kilkenny are fantastic and with little argument as the best team ever. They're fantastic and a real joy to watch - when Tipp are not their enemy. I'm a huge fan of some of their individual players: Herity, Power, Shefflin, Hogan and Walsh. They're serious hurlers. Like a cab driver said yesterday, they're born with sliotars in hand. TJ Reid completely obliterated us, Larkin, Power ran over us and the six defenders - the finest defensive unit I've seen in any sports - locked us out.
Some appalling scenes on Sunday that made me question the shift Ryan made us undergo. Pádraic Maher and Shane McGrath nearly took Richie Power's head off and then they pretty much battered him with their hurleys. Lar Corbett insisted on throwing more shoulders and charges than actually playing. Again, Maher's swing of the hurley was unnecessarily violent. Corbett and Bourke decided to have a little jaunt around the field with their markers. Maher, McGrath, Corbett are usually cool customers but they looked like savages yesterday. Corbett's actions were part of "tactics" called by Declan Ryan. It was embarrassing. I know for a fact that there was tourists around me and they probably wondered what the hell was going on. Thankfully they got more than their money's worth with a fine display from the black and amber. We looked a joke - some of it desperation and anger but most of it following orders. Which brings me to my next point.
Ryan was incapable yesterday. In the post match interview he stated we were "well prepared". Nonsense, utter nonsense. Tipperary discarded some fine play all through the year and opted to turn their play into an audition tape for World Wrestling Entertainment. It was fierce horrible to watch. I don't mind physicality in the game but when it turns into a wild free for all, it detracts from the game. Kilkenny kept their cool and won the physical battle.
Ryan's decision to go out and play the rough game wasn't us. We haven't played like that all year. We were smart, industrious and relied on scoring. Yesterday when Corbett played like he normally does, he was good, he assisted Shane McGrath and had a lovely pass that was nearly a goal but he was following orders - stupid, inept orders. I'm wondering how the players will react to this - long term and short term.
The shift of Patrick Bonner Maher into full forward had me sratching my head. I turned to a friend, "Bonner's a forward!", yet here he was, the closest to David Herity than he has been to Nicky Quaid or Anthony Nash all season. I firmly believe Maher is our best player. He has spurned us to victory in the past and his dynamism, work-rate and unselfishness is welcome. He's best suited as a half-forward. He'll play anywhere, he has stated so, but he's deeply and dangerously effective as a half forward. Give him the number 10, 11, or 12 jersey, not the 15 jersey that he pretty much had on on Sunday. It was bewildering - you'd never play your best player out of position. Maher's likely the smallest of our forwards, yet he was in the full forward position and getting beat by his markers.
Ryan didn't learn the lessons of last year's AI when they were there for learning. The long ball didn't work against Kilkenny yet we kept bombing it in in the last game. Brian Hogan and Tommy Walsh must have been laughing yesterday as they cleared back out balls. It's sad when our best score came from the 69th minute with some fabulous build up play that was kept short-to-medium range and I think O' Neill put it over.
Ryan's contract is up, his two years are done. I'm indifferent about him coming back to be honest. If he does or doesn't I'm grand. We just need to get rid of a lot of crap and learn the lessons and not make any stupid decisions. I mean how hard is that?
@Dondea Leo. I think the squad is fine. McGrath and Maher have a lovely partnership going. Maher likes midfield and he's an incredible worker for us there - but his versatility is remarkable, he can pretty much play anywhere. McGrath is only regaining form now and his work rate and scoring is welcome from there. I don't want to see Woodlock starting. Maher can start anywhere but I think he's excellent in the number 7 jersey.
Someone said Colm Bonner to manage Tipp. No way. I wouldn't want him. If we were to get someone I'd love to coax Donal O' Grady back into management. I think he did a fantastic job with Limerick. He took a broken squad and got it back on its feet. He implemented a lovely style of hurling using sensible passing to find the right man for the score, instead of walloping it down field. Although John Allen has progressed the Limerick team somewhat, I believe they're real contenders and need that extra measure of confidence to advance. Someone like O' Grady - a smart guy, would be nice to see. I don't know many managers, so if I'm wrong, I'm open to interpretation.
Apologies for the long post but I had to rant. Some of it is probably indecipherable but I'm still reeling after making the trip up, paying a ticket all the while carrying injuries all down my right leg. I may still be bitter! I wish Kilkenny luck for the final but I'll be shouting for Galway. To see that crop of lads, Coen, Burke and Canning win an All-Ireland would do wonders for their careers and confidence.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »
Other then Donncha Fahy of St Marys and Theo English of Marlfield i cannot think of another Clonmel (or thereabouts) hurler that has played senior for Tipp. Seamus Kennedy may do it in the future but its a big ask.
You'd have to head out to Ardfinnan to find a Clonmel area hurler, Cummins. It's a shame there's no hurlers here. A lot of football clubs.
Speaking of Cummins, I think he's got a few more years in him. Everyone's calling for him to retire. I think that's rushing to judgement. He had a slow start to the year but he did a lot of positive things on Sunday. The Fogarty goal was soft but his defense was skewered.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »
Other then Donncha Fahy of St Marys and Theo English of Marlfield i cannot think of another Clonmel (or thereabouts) hurler that has played senior for Tipp. Seamus Kennedy may do it in the future but its a big ask.
Babs Keating of Ballybacon... Andy Moloney of Cahir. Clonmel I mainly a football town.0 -
daniels.ducks wrote: »Babs Keating of Ballybacon... Andy Moloney of Cahir. Clonmel I mainly a football town.
Ballybacon in fairness to them have curbed that trend in that area. Apart from Babs and Cummins you had Michael Phelan who was a tidy little corner back at u21 and Shane Sweeney (also u21). Tom Kirwan looks a promising prospect but is probably a better footballer. I get your point Clonmel is a strong football area and in fairness they have produced some top class footballers past and present but surely with a population between 15 and 20k they could churn out more hurlers. they seem to be getting their act together now and i was heartened to read Paul Curran saying that his primary school class wrote letters appealing for Larry to come back. Larry didnt set them the greatest example on Sunday. Also worth mentioning Mike O'Brien who has a few county medals with Thurles Sars. The high school won an all ireland B in 2011 and its great that they will take part in the harty cup for 2012.
As for Cahir, Andy wasnt a bad oul hurler in fairness to him and went on to do reasonably well for Waterford but Cahir is another town who should be doing alot better then they are. Loughmore/Castleiney for example wouldnt have half the pick and yet compete at Senior level strongly in both codes0 -
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Here's some conspiracy theories I've heard today
1: lar and Declan had to be pulled apart at half time!
2: lar didn't want to come out in the second half
Also o'mahony played second half with a broken toe and eoin Kelly told thursday that he wasn't in their plans anymore..... The plot thickens our it really doesn't matter now...0 -
Tipperary animal lover wrote: »Here's some conspiracy theories I've heard today
1: lar and Declan had to be pulled apart at half time!
2: lar didn't want to come out in the second half
Also o'mahony played second half with a broken toe and eoin Kelly told thursday that he wasn't in their plans anymore..... The plot thickens our it really doesn't matter now...
You always hear these rumours when we get beat and i suppose the way things happened such as Lar re-entering the field late, add fuel to them. Just by the way Declan Fanning was talking on Premierview i personally doubt there was any real row but perhaps a strong difference of opinion, maybe even a Mexican stand off over those tactics but it was pretty much a storm in a tea cup.
As Premierstone said on the match thread, O'Mahony was injured. He played contrary to medical advice and i think he ran over to the doctor Peter Murchin before the parade alright. Eoin was doubtful also i believe so i doubt he was told that otherwise he wouldnt have made the bench. Its strange John O'Neill got a game ahead of him no doubt but in fairness to O'Neill he took two nice scores when he came on.0 -
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I haven't been around for a couple of days but I looks as if the County has gone into meltdown since Sunday,and it's no wonder.It's been an embarrassing couple of days to be a Tipp man/woman and it will be like that for a while until we bury the ghost of this defeat and we'll be waiting for that for a while.when the thought of sending Lar out to do what he done came into Declan Ryans head he should have dismissed it straight away as a rubbish idea,but no he went ahead with it.Tactics me hole.I'm still disgusted with it all.0
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Lucky man, you weren't around...entire county is in shock...the only positive I can think may come of it, is those boys know the enormity of their defeat and will hopefully use that to drive on their campaign next year.I haven't been around for a couple of days but I looks as if the County has gone into meltdown since Sunday,and it's no wonder.It's been an embarrassing couple of days to be a Tipp man/woman and it will be like that for a while until we bury the ghost of this defeat and we'll be waiting for that for a while.when the thought of sending Lar out to do what he done came into Declan Ryans head he should have dismissed it straight away as a rubbish idea,but no he went ahead with it.Tactics me hole.I'm still disgusted with it all.0 -
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Donadea Leo wrote: »There are a few differences with 2010, I think we have a huge problem down the right side of our defence - the loss of Declan Fanning is huge - with all due respect to our players there at the moment, his aggression and physicality allowed him to cut out runners and attacks down that side.
Kilkenny's goals almost all came from that, it's also were they targeted us last year.
The difference between kilkenny and us is this we have a weakness they can exploit and its easy to spot - they don't, there isn't an obvious line or area to target.
We've also lost Eoin Kelly who has been our best hurler for years and years - he owes us nothing and even though in 2010 he was nearing an end of his career his guile and experience was huge in us overturning Kilkenny - Lar is a great hurler in his own way but he is not the reliable consistent score getter Eoin Kelly was. All the best teams have someone like this, Shefflin, previously D.J. Carey and now Joe Canning for Galway.
I do think Liam Sheedy was a great manager and brought another level but we also have to face facts and address some obvious weaknesses in the team.
couldn't possibly agree with you more on the declan fanning point...the man partook in some ferocious battles for our cause, and to me, he was always one lad you could see how much wearing that jersey meant to him...throughout the 2010 campaign he was savagely underrated with regards credit to our success and I cant help but feel that our half back line isn't the same without him0 -
Oh no way,he should have gone 3-4 years ago at least and several share this view. At fault for goals in the 2 lost finals and was lucky in 2010 when all at sea,the second one last Sunday started the collapse,what right has anyone to be there forever anyway.ReacherCreature wrote: »You'd have to head out to Ardfinnan to find a Clonmel area hurler, Cummins. It's a shame there's no hurlers here. A lot of football clubs.
Speaking of Cummins, I think he's got a few more years in him. Everyone's calling for him to retire. I think that's rushing to judgement. He had a slow start to the year but he did a lot of positive things on Sunday. The Fogarty goal was soft but his defense was skewered.0 -
Oh no way,he should have gone 3-4 years ago at least and several share this view. At fault for goals in the 2 lost finals and was lucky in 2010 when all at sea,the second one last Sunday started the collapse,what right has anyone to be there forever anyway.
He also pulled off a fantastic save in the first half on sunday so give the man credit.
And how was he at fault for either goal in 2009?
His point in the 2010 final was a huge moment for us.
If you think he should have stepped aside thats fair enough but don't try taint the legacy of the man. You talk as if he was some sort of liability to us for the last few years which is completely untrue0 -
You are entitled to your opinion and we all see things differently.Some think he is one of the best keepers ever,some others myself included always thought differently,from the 1996 Munster Final replay etc some people see things differently to others. Not much point going into every goal and save since then but in 2009 he said himself he deflected the penalty away from the hurley off the back beside him into the net,he was out of position for the second goal as he was for the second last year,woefully so in my opinion.Pointed a nice free in 2010 but then again someone else can show times that puckouts went astray which led to points also. Basically i don't think personally he should be there for some more "years" at this stage as suggested earlier and doubt if he will either. A great servant to the county no doubt however but hardly one for the future at this stage.He also pulled off a fantastic save in the first half on sunday so give the man credit.
And how was he at fault for either goal in 2009?
His point in the 2010 final was a huge moment for us.
If you think he should have stepped aside thats fair enough but don't try taint the legacy of the man. You talk as if he was some sort of liability to us for the last few years which is completely untrue0 -
Tipperary animal lover wrote: »Here's some conspiracy theories I've heard today
1: lar and Declan had to be pulled apart at half time!
2: lar didn't want to come out in the second half
Also o'mahony played second half with a broken toe and eoin Kelly told thursday that he wasn't in their plans anymore..... The plot thickens our it really doesn't matter now...
Firmly disbelieve this. Lar followed senseless orders despite himself. Corbett would have done anything for the team.
O' Mahony played with a broken toe yeah. He had to be driven up to Dublin. The man is a warrior for playing through it but maybe he shouldn't have started.Deleted User wrote: »Its strange John O'Neill got a game ahead of him no doubt but in fairness to O'Neill he took two nice scores when he came on.
The management team must hate Seamie Callanan. He rarely gets a go and I'd love to see the lad play. Not to detract from O' Neill, he gave a spirited performance when he came on.Oh no way,he should have gone 3-4 years ago at least and several share this view. At fault for goals in the 2 lost finals and was lucky in 2010 when all at sea,the second one last Sunday started the collapse,what right has anyone to be there forever anyway.
Disagree. He's been terrific for us. I don't think people appreciate how difficult it is being a keeper. Being a goalie in the fastest field game in the world and coming up against the best attackers in the game is no easy feat, especially when the ball is tiny in comparison to the net's size.
Plus, he has every right to be there. He's regularly considered the best in the game, past and present. He saw off something like six or seven pretenders by defeating them in training etc. The time is coming to look for a replacement indeed, Gleeson is in his 30s iirc so some new blood is welcome for the future.0 -
ReacherCreature wrote: »
The management team must hate Seamie Callanan. He rarely gets a go and I'd love to see the lad play. Not to detract from O' Neill, he gave a spirited performance when he came on.
Callinan was a class above in the challenge game v clare and also has excelled for his club this year, It's hard to see why he isn't being given a chance.0 -
Callinan was a class above in the challenge game v clare and also has excelled for his club this year, It's hard to see why he isn't being given a chance.
Forgot about the Clare game, more evidence for his inclusion.
I'd rather him in place of Buggy O' Meara, although has been good, I don't think he has the athleticism for the game.0 -
ReacherCreature wrote: »The management team must hate Seamie Callanan. He rarely gets a go and I'd love to see the lad play. Not to detract from O' Neill, he gave a spirited performance when he came on.
Declan Ryan has a big issue with him from what I heard, an incident after one of the early round matches. And in my opinion it shouldnt be used against Callanan, at the end of the day its all about the best for the team.0 -
Thoroughly agree. No point bearing grudges as a coach to be honest. It isn't for the best.0
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Did Seamus Callinan come on in the Munster Final. Sorry I just checked there he came on in the 66th minute0
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From what I heard Callnan got into a fight with D Ryans brother in Thurlas late at night after the limerick game....The brother apparently ended up with a broken jaw....would definately explain why he isnt being selected though.0
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You could compare Tipperary during the Sheedy tenure as a top class Swimmer who competed with, and then went on to beat Michael Phelps.
During the last two Ryan/Dunne years it was the very same as watching that same swimmer drown slowly and there isnt a thing you could do about it and the 'lifeguards' (being Declan Ryan and Tommy Dunne) hadn't even the cop on to throw in a safety ring0 -
Alot of people believe this will set us back years but i dont agree. With the right appointment we could be back in 12 months and Galway are living proof of that BUT it is absolutely vital that this appointment is spot on.
Dont forget even with this setup in place we managed to win Munster the last two years and we have a great squad of players. Yes retirements may take place which is my big concern as we badly need experience next year.
But the flow of talent is good within the county and i'm positive for the future. We are in a minor final and came within a 30 seconds of having all but a foot in the u21 final. The raw materials are there to work with. I honestly cant think of one candidate that could take Tipperary forward and i dont believe Sheedy could come back. Nonetheless ill remain optimistic even if it is blind optimism. However if the county board do take the bizarre step and reappoint this management team (and honestly i wouldn't put such a step beyond them) then as a hurling county going forward we'll be struggling in division 2 in no time0 -
I think if you could persuade Nicky English to come back he'd be a very good candidate. I know it'll be 11years since he managed intercounty but he seems like someone who would get the best out of players and build a good team spirit which is something that seemed to be lacking. Find a good trainer like Sheedy did with O'Shea and we'd be well set0
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Only posting now after sundays match tbh im still in shock over the whole thing coudnt even bring myself to watch the match again in fear id send my foot through the telly.... Major changes needed for Tipperary hurling in 2013 hopefully if the names being brought up for the managerial position are true we are already on the right road, in my opinion i cant see Sheedy returning but we definitely need someone like him to get the players motivation and hunger back because after sunday im guessing its going to be at a serious all time low.... Hoping to still travel up in September to watch the minors play if I can get a ticket!0
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Only posting now after sundays match tbh im still in shock over the whole thing coudnt even bring myself to watch the match again in fear id send my foot through the telly.... Major changes needed for Tipperary hurling in 2013 hopefully if the names being brought up for the managerial position are true we are already on the right road, in my opinion i cant see Sheedy returning but we definitely need someone like him to get the players motivation and hunger back because after sunday im guessing its going to be at a serious all time low.... Hoping to still travel up in September to watch the minors play if I can get a ticket!
Fair play to you Carey. i dont think i or anyone else hold it against you if you didnt because of the costs involved on the day but that's true support. Hats off to you.0 -
I think if you could persuade Nicky English to come back he'd be a very good candidate. I know it'll be 11years since he managed intercounty but he seems like someone who would get the best out of players and build a good team spirit which is something that seemed to be lacking. Find a good trainer like Sheedy did with O'Shea and we'd be well set
Thats true. Sure JBM has done ok with Cork this year and he has been out of the game as long.
Tipperary are against Kilkenny in the intermediate All Ireland final also for anyone interested on the 1st of September.
Venue tba but id imagine Thurles or Nowlan Park. Ill be there anyhow. Sundays game shouldn't have any bearing on it.0 -
I love the way Seamie Callinan has suddenly become a superstar now that we were beaten, there was no-one complaining about he's exclusion here last week or before any game this year, Liam Sheedy never trusted him either and infact the county minor management didnt select him when he was a minor.0
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Deleted User wrote: »I honestly cant think of one candidate that could take Tipperary forward.
Assuming that the first three choices, Sheedy, English or O'Shea will all turn it down for various reasons I would like to see someone like Richard Stakelum given a chance, say with a couple of young faces like Eamon Corcoran/Declan Fanning/Willie Maher or people like that, Richie has done trojan work in Dublin and is very highly thought of there, but if we dont act fast he may not be available either as if Daly steps down I imagine he will be their first port of call.0 -
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premierstone wrote: »I love the way Seamie Callinan has suddenly become a superstar now that we were beaten, there was no-one complaining about he's exclusion here last week or before any game this year, Liam Sheedy never trusted him either and infact the county minor management didnt select him when he was a minor.
Post #670, i asked about him and how he was going:D
In fairness there was a good few people talking about how well he was going at the start of the championship, as it progressed and he wasn't seen getting a run i presumed his form dipped0
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