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The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2012
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Matt Santos wrote: »running but O'Brien is on borrowed time IMO...
If that is Johnno you are referring to then im sorry you are talking through your hole. the guy has been absolutely flying it so far this year and ive seen all of the 6 or 7 games theyve played so far.
Each one he played in he was immense and after Bonnar Maher he was our best forward in last years disaster of a final. If Johnno is on borrowed time after that then by your logic, Callanan, Eoin, Noel McGrath or Lar should never pick up a hurley again0 -
If that is Johnno you are referring to then im sorry you are talking through your hole. the guy has been absolutely flying it so far this year and ive seen all of the 6 or 7 games theyve played so far.
Each one he played in he was immense and after Bonnar Maher he was our best forward in last years disaster of a final. If Johnno is on borrowed time after that then by your logic, Callanan, Eoin, Noel McGrath or Lar should never pick up a hurley again
Ok. The six or seven matches that they have played already were Waterford Crystal and challenge games. How much has O'Brien contributed?
You have to remember that he is being marked by lesser talent than what he will potentially face later this year. I just dont think that he is All Ireland winning talent and I think he wont see the start of the Championship. That is all!
As for the second best on show at last years All Ireland I beg to differ. If that is his best then you have indirectly proved my point..
M0 -
Matt Santos wrote: »If that is Johnno you are referring to then im sorry you are talking through your hole. the guy has been absolutely flying it so far this year and ive seen all of the 6 or 7 games theyve played so far.
Each one he played in he was immense and after Bonnar Maher he was our best forward in last years disaster of a final. If Johnno is on borrowed time after that then by your logic, Callanan, Eoin, Noel McGrath or Lar should never pick up a hurley again
Ok. The six or seven matches that they have played already were Waterford Crystal and challenge games. How much has O'Brien contributed?
You have to remember that he is being marked by lesser talent than what he will potentially face later this year. I just dont think that he is All Ireland winning talent and I think he wont see the start of the Championship. That is all!
As for the second best on show at last years All Ireland I beg to differ. If that is his best then you have indirectly proved my point..
M
Have you actually gone to any games this year?
I thought the guy was excellent in the 2011 final. Made some great catches and was the only one of the forwards other then Bonnar who stood up to Kilkenny physicality wise while certain others didnt want to know of the rough stuff. His tallies may not be to the same level as Eoin or Lar but his overall contribution was decent under the circumstances. Johnno is getting any younger but still has plenty to offer and i expect a huge year from him
EDIT:
To start with he has scored
0-3 against Cork
0-4 agaisnt UL (one of which was worth the admission alone)
scored 0-3 or 0-4 against Munster
didnt play agaisnt LIT, Coolderry or UCC0 -
Work has conspired against going to all the games but I go as much as I possibly can.
Tipp gunner, I have read a lot of your posts and you are a super analyst of the game and of the county scene. I have noticed that you do have plenty of previous praise for O'Brien and fair play to you and your opinion.
I just thought that at full forward O'Brien was ineffective. Scored when he had the chance but he was starved all day. Gas to say that Bonnar Maher was our best performer (and I agree here that he was!) but for the slap that Tommy inflicted on the referee and he marking Bonnar all day he should have been Man of the match!
O'Brien may be able for the physicality of full belt Senior stuff but he has had plenty chance to bloom.
At the 65th minute when the All Ireland was in the balance did you scream with disbelief when Jonno was subbed?
Also was subbed at the same period in the Dublin game if memory serves me well!0 -
Matt Santos wrote: »Work has conspired against going to all the games but I go as much as I possibly can.
Tipp gunner, I have read a lot of your posts and you are a super analyst of the game and of the county scene. I have noticed that you do have plenty of previous praise for O'Brien and fair play to you and your opinion.
I just thought that at full forward O'Brien was ineffective. Scored when he had the chance but he was starved all day. Gas to say that Bonnar Maher was our best performer (and I agree here that he was!) but for the slap that Tommy inflicted on the referee and he marking Bonnar all day he should have been Man of the match!
O'Brien may be able for the physicality of full belt Senior stuff but he has had plenty chance to bloom.
At the 65th minute when the All Ireland was in the balance did you scream with disbelief when Jonno was subbed?
OK thats fair enough i acknowledge your work commitments and your absolutely entitled to your own opinion. thanks for your comments i do my best, but i have to say i actually did scream in disbelief because he was having a good game i felt and was penetrating them a bit and then John O'Neill came on instead who i dont rate whatsoever.
Skilful no doubt but too small, off the pace, and looks like he is carrying an extra lbs too many. Timmy Hammersly the very same only if anything he is too narrow a build.
I rate Mikey Heffernan or Shane Bourke over both of them and if management were going to bring Festy on to the bench then at least bring him on as he caught loads of ball off the KK half back line in 09. Even beat Tommy to a few.0 -
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I hope you are right and are seeing something that I obviously am not!
We will leave that debate alone then..
So, I will ask you this....
In your opinion, do you think that the wing forward line will manage any way to live with the virtually perfect structure of the KK wing back line?
It is at this line that I see the big issue with this current Tipp set up..
M0 -
Matt Santos wrote: »I hope you are right and are seeing something that I obviously am not!
We will leave that debate alone then..
So, I will ask you this....
In your opinion, do you think that the wing forward line will manage any way to live with the virtually perfect structure of the KK wing back line?
It is at this line that I see the big issue with this current Tipp set up..
M
Tipp were bunched up during the final last year instead of keeping some width and that was one problem and i think the trajectory of the ball going into to our half forwards needs to be lower to have any chance.
Inexperience could be a key factor especially tomorrow. Gar Ryan mightnt catch alot of ball but what he needs to do is stop his marker (probably JJ) from getting clean clearance and i think Gar is very good at this. Would be better then Callanan anyhow.
Adrian Ryan is a very good prospect and is very accurate but there is no doubt about it he faces a baptism of fire tomorrow. i wouldnt be surprised if he drops back somewhat which might be effective so long as they use the head and dont aim the ball down straight on tommy walsh who will catch them all day long. Noelie needs to test Brian Hogan tomorrow. He is a young lad with speed and bags of skill but he should move around a bit and leave Hogan do the chasing.
Ultimately your right, inexperience is up against Kilkennys main strength but i think if we had an Eamon O'Shea that would actually use his loaf to guide us we'd find the holes but sadly we dont. Tommy Walsh's main asset is being able to land balls straight back down to his wing forward so if we stop the supply this time we have a chance.
Id give us a chance tomorrow. They shouldnt underestimate Buggy or Adrian Ryan either because ive seen this ryan for under 21 and recently for the seniors and if he can find his range he is hard to stop.0 -
I decided id cool down before i post here but im still very very pissed off at our insistence on going backwards under Declan Ryan. That was very very disappointing today. very very disappointing. the usual brainless route one balls down straight to the kilkenny half back line. Muscled off every ball we got to first, Second by a country mile to every other ball. Some of our top players looked jaded and not at the races which is pity because today was the day that Tipperary needed to say that they are staying at the top table for the immediate future.
The only sources of encouragement were from Shane Bourke and Donagh Maher and i have to say it was encouraging to see Noel drop back a bit to collect ball.
People can say its only the league and that im overreacting, but this problem we have is far greater then just our league form. The ambititon, the drive, the hunger is no longer there. Instead we are left with a shell of a team that mirrors the laid back approach of our manager. Our trainer is also out of his depth and because he is so difficult to work with, both Cian O'Neill and Lar Corbett have walked.
We have now lost 3 games on the spin to Kilkenny and that losing mentality that Sheedy, O'Shea, and Michael Ryan fought so hard to shake off is building back up and meanwhile the rest are closing the gap on us.
If the county board dont act quick then who knows what are unwelcome statistic could read soon. 5 in 46 years could become 5 in 56 years before we know it.
We lost the whole of the last decade because we went through a list of ponderous clueless managers after Nicky English despite winning the all ireland in 2001 with a panel average age of 24.
They should have a go at getting Sheedy and co back suppose its only via Skype because even at that they are the best option.
Sheedy and co proved that there is a great human element to managing a team that is attempting to dethrone probably the greatest team of all time as well as a tactical element and all their efforts have been scoffed at by their successors to go back to the primitive predictable style of management that will see us rust again.
Rant over.0 -
1 of the starting 6 forwards scoring from play and the full forward line with nothing at all.Surely Shane Bourke will get a couple of games now.Only February but things not looking too good i fear.0
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It breaks my heart to be a Tipperary fan at times it really does.The league cant be used as an excuse any longer. We were given a trimming today despite back at training since early January. fitness is not an issue but tactics and motivation (or lack of both i should say) are the first things that come to mind0
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Deleted User wrote: »I decided id cool down before i post here but im still very very pissed off at our insistence on going backwards under Declan Ryan. That was very very disappointing today. very very disappointing. the usual brainless route one balls down straight to the kilkenny half back line. Muscled off every ball we got to first, Second by a country mile to every other ball. Some of our top players looked jaded and not at the races which is pity because today was the day that Tipperary needed to say that they are staying at the top table for the immediate future.
The only sources of encouragement were from Shane Bourke and Donagh Maher and i have to say it was encouraging to see Noel drop back a bit to collect ball.
People can say its only the league and that im overreacting, but this problem we have is far greater then just our league form. The ambititon, the drive, the hunger is no longer there. Instead we are left with a shell of a team that mirrors the laid back approach of our manager. Our trainer is also out of his depth and because he is so difficult to work with, both Cian O'Neill and Lar Corbett have walked.
We have now lost 3 games on the spin to Kilkenny and that losing mentality that Sheedy, O'Shea, and Michael Ryan fought so hard to shake off is building back up and meanwhile the rest are closing the gap on us.
If the county board dont act quick then who knows what are unwelcome statistic could read soon. 5 in 46 years could become 5 in 56 years before we know it.
We lost the whole of the last decade because we went through a list of ponderous clueless managers after Nicky English despite winning the all ireland in 2001 with a panel average age of 24.
They should have a go at getting Sheedy and co back suppose its only via Skype because even at that they are the best option.
Sheedy and co proved that there is a great human element to managing a team that is attempting to dethrone probably the greatest team of all time as well as a tactical element and all their efforts have been scoffed at by their successors to go back to the primitive predictable style of management that will see us rust again.
Rant over.
i couldn't agree more gunner, worrying times indeed.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »the usual brainless route one balls down straight to the kilkenny half back line.
Absolutely. Could not agree more. I hate this tactic. Break it down for God sake. Cork and Kilkenny scored absolutely sublime balls by collecting short-to-mid range pucks, passing through the midfielders then finding huge space to move about. Within the first 20 minutes I knew this was a repeat of the AI final, KK backline must have been laughing. Keep it short. That's my ethos. Limerick's offensive last season was modelled on short balls and move on. It worked perfectly.Muscled off every ball we got to first, Second by a country mile to every other ball. Some of our top players looked jaded and not at the races which is pity because today was the day that Tipperary needed to say that they are staying at the top table for the immediate future.
Agreed.The only sources of encouragement were from Shane Bourke and Donagh Maher and i have to say it was encouraging to see Noel drop back a bit to collect ball.
Correct. I was pleased with Shane Bourke. Battled hard and looks a physically capable player. Hopefully he can get some games, but at the expense of whom?
Cody put out a huge team and although we missed Bonner, Kelly, McGrath and co., KK were bloody clean and efficient today. That Richie Power, massively underrated. I'm a huge fan.0 -
ReacherCreature wrote: »Cody put out a huge team and although we missed Bonner, Kelly, McGrath and co., KK were bloody clean and efficient today. That Richie Power, massively underrated. I'm a huge fan.
Have to say while KK are the rival down here they have to be applauded and admired for every single aspect of their hurling. From their genius of a manager to the way they run their club championship. Kudos to them to keep this show going for so long and have to be gracious to them for their performance today. Power is a savage forward no doubt. Plays with a tenacity that every forward needs to have. TJ Reid was also very good for them.
Intially i thought Kelly wont be a starter this year but he is even more mobile then Buggy and has the experience. Even with the lads missing, even if Lar came back this problem wont go away. Lar cant do naff all if ball doesnt go into him.
Im sure Eamon O'Shea finds Tipp hard to watch of late given that every tactic he instilled in them has been totally ingnored by his successors.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Have to say while KK are the rival down here they have to be applauded and admired for every single aspect of their hurling. From their genius of a manager to the way they run their club championship. Kudos to them to keep this show going for so long and have to be gracious to them for their performance today. Power is a savage forward no doubt. Plays with a tenacity that every forward needs to have. TJ Reid was also very good for them.
I know it might be heretical to follow other players that are not Tipperary players but if you appreciate other hurlers then you enjoy the game more. Power was cool as a breeze today. Frees weren't a problem and some of his passes were spot on.
I watched all of the game at home but I was talking away with others so my attention wasn't all there but what were thoughts on Adrian Ryan, David Young and Buggy?0 -
ReacherCreature wrote: »I know it might be heretical to follow other players that are not Tipperary players but if you appreciate other hurlers then you enjoy the game more. Power was cool as a breeze today. Frees weren't a problem and some of his passes were spot on.
I watched all of the game at home but I was talking away with others so my attention wasn't all there but what were thoughts on Adrian Ryan, David Young and Buggy?
Buggy lacks mobility and i dont think he will make it. I like Ado myself. he worked hard but the stupid long ball tactics supplied to him are just not going to work against vast experience. give the boy a chance at least. Young is poor reader of the game but i felt Mick Fennelly didnt have the same presence or impact on game so maybe some of that is down to Young but he is in no way the answer.
the one thing that struck me today is when tipp man caught a ball there was no options on or no one calling for it. communication lads, communication.0 -
KK's dominance through the air was complete. They were plucking Cummins' balls at will and we couldn't breathe. When one player would get a ball, two or three black and amber converged.
Fair play to O' Mahoney and Cahill, did a lot of clearing and did not give up.
Also, why was Cummins wearing 16?0 -
ReacherCreature wrote: »KK's dominance through the air was complete. They were plucking Cummins' balls at will and we couldn't breathe. When one player would get a ball, two or three black and amber converged.
Fair play to O' Mahoney and Cahill, did a lot of clearing and did not give up.
Also, why was Cummins wearing 16?
Gleeson was meant to be in goal but because the relegation final was cancelled yesterday, Cummins was put in last minute. To be honest i think Gleeson should be getting more games in the league its ridiculous. Cummins wont be around forever and we are learning nothing playing him great man tho he may be.
EDIT: i think Gleeson had family matters to attend to so couldnt play. he will probably start the next day.
EDIT: His wife had a baby....that would rule him out alright...congrats Mr and Mrs G0 -
Very frustrating day. One dimensional,slow, laborious build up play. I was inclined to give the management the benefit of the doubt after last september, but there wasn't any variation in style. Few positives in the performances of the new mahers and shane bourke. The one goal chance we got, we scuffed and Lar would have buried that chance.0
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Watching Ryans interview on league Sunday he described today as 'a steep lesson'. One would think we were a new hurling county like a carlow or westmeath, that played our first game ever in division 1 and not the all ireland champions he took over. Go now you buffoon and take Tommy Dunne with you!0
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Its very early in the year but i do fear for us, after losing the all ireland we need to see progress and see it quickly. Going by todays game it looked like we were on a hangover from winning in september and they were the fresh hungry team.0
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Its very early in the year but i do fear for us, after losing the all ireland we need to see progress and see it quickly. Going by todays game it looked like we were on a hangover from winning in september and they were the fresh hungry team.
Thats just it and that to me is quite unacceptable. All the training we have done the last 7-8 weeks was for nothing. The players now have an inferiority complex built up with Kilkenny which we thought we had shook off in September 2010.
Even JBM said yesterday he wants to close the gap on us. Well doable id say this year. I honestly think if we had our strongest 15 out today it would have been the same result because the tactics were awful. Same tactics that has failed Michael Doyle, Ken Hogan, Babs, hell even Nicky English in 2002 but this management insist on it as if we are legally bound by them. theyve had the chance and they have gambled our immediate future away. With the insistence of those brainless tactics i can honestly say TIPPERARY WILL WIN NOTHING THIS YEAR. Time to go.0 -
After finally digesting what i witnessed in nolan park today i feel its time someone stands up and takes action against this management team if you could even call them that......the county is only after getting over the shock of Lars retirement and then we pay €13 to witness this tomfoolery its an absolute joke and now is the time to take action i think its obvious we are carrying passenger on and off the team, when is this farce going to end its a joke...What are the solutions to the problems in this camp???0
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Struck me today that theres just no cuteness when we have the sliotar. Just lump it up the field is all we do. When Kilkenny get it, there are automatically 2 or 3 lads free to take a pass. We dont seem to have hurling brains. And thats disappointing. I think if Ryan had anything about him, he would see hes doing more damge than good.
I also think the players should take their fair share of the blame. They nearly apologise when they shoulder someone. Its ridiculous.!0 -
After finally digesting what i witnessed in nolan park today i feel its time someone stands up and takes action against this management team if you could even call them that......the county is only after getting over the shock of Lars retirement and then we pay €13 to witness this tomfoolery its an absolute joke and now is the time to take action i think its obvious we are carrying passenger on and off the team, when is this farce going to end its a joke...What are the solutions to the problems in this camp???
Simple carey. Management has to go. They are out of their depth. If at all possible the county board should bring back Sheedy, O'Shea and Michael Ryan and hopefully Cian O'Neill and Caroline Currid could also come back. It wont guarantee success but it will guarantee a professional set up going forward. And if they cant get back the dream team then i suggest get men who are charismatic, enthusiastic, forward thinking, able to motivate players and tactically astute. Unfortunately they dont grow on trees in this county of ours.0 -
There's way too much pining from the Tipp fans for the previous management team. Remember it took them three years win an All-Ireland and to come up with a game plan to beat Kilkenny, and still that management never went a season without a defeat. The point is it sometimes takes a management a season or two to settle in before they realise their potential. Pining for Sheedy and co. is pointless.
Its also worth noting that in the 09 league group stage Kilkenny slaughtered Tipp, but when the crunch games came along later Tipp were far better. Its still only February, there's plenty of hurling left and realistically Tipp are the only ones near our level.
The one thing I would worry about more than the management if I was a Tipp fan is the for the third time in a row, Kilkenny have out-fought, out-muscled and out-played Tipp. The Tipp players themselves are good enough to win an AI once, why can't they play to the same level again? Fair enough the tactics might be different, but the personnel isn't, the players will have to ship their share of the blame here, yesterday wasn't the performance in terms of effort or attitude of potential AI champions, and that can't all be down to the management, the players have to be in that mid-frame themselves independent of the management. The management mightn't be the best but its the management you've got, you're still playing for your county, go out and show it. A lot of the Tipp players weren't prepared to do the real hard work needed that Kilkenny do.
The big positive for Tipp from yesterday was that half-back line was incredible to watch, the covering off the ball was as good as any of Kilkenny's backs and without it, it could have been a cricket score. But as impressive as it was it does raise the question as to why had they do so much covering? Because the Tipp midfield was cleaned out again. Tipp have a lot of work to do, Lar is the least of your problems, he wouldn't do much with no ball anyway (á la last September).
As for us? Great start to the year, we've been impressive in the Walsh cup and yesterday showed the hunger is greater still. Definitely the greatest side to have ever played the game0 -
There's way too much pining from the Tipp fans for the previous management team. Remember it took them three years win an All-Ireland and to come up with a game plan to beat Kilkenny, and still that management never went a season without a defeat. The point is it sometimes takes a management a season or two to settle in before they realise their potential. Pining for Sheedy and co. is pointless.
Its also worth noting that in the 09 league group stage Kilkenny slaughtered Tipp, but when the crunch games came along later Tipp were far better. Its still only February, there's plenty of hurling left and realistically Tipp are the only ones near our level.
The one thing I would worry about more than the management if I was a Tipp fan is the for the third time in a row, Kilkenny have out-fought, out-muscled and out-played Tipp. The Tipp players themselves are good enough to win an AI once, why can't they play to the same level again? Fair enough the tactics might be different, but the personnel isn't, the players will have to ship their share of the blame here, yesterday wasn't the performance in terms of effort or attitude of potential AI champions, and that can't all be down to the management, the players have to be in that mid-frame themselves independent of the management. The management mightn't be the best but its the management you've got, you're still playing for your county, go out and show it. A lot of the Tipp players weren't prepared to do the real hard work needed that Kilkenny do.
The big positive for Tipp from yesterday was that half-back line was incredible to watch, the covering off the ball was as good as any of Kilkenny's backs and without it, it could have been a cricket score. But as impressive as it was it does raise the question as to why had they do so much covering? Because the Tipp midfield was cleaned out again. Tipp have a lot of work to do, Lar is the least of your problems, he wouldn't do much with no ball anyway (á la last September).
As for us? Great start to the year, we've been impressive in the Walsh cup and yesterday showed the hunger is greater still. Definitely the greatest side to have ever played the game
Spot on randd, one thing we do better in Tipp than anyone else is over react and down our own. Declan and co took on a job that no one else wanted because it was a poisoned chalice and need to be given time, how was anyone suprised with yesterday, they are training 6 nights a week of course they are going to be heavy legged, the training they are doing is designed to have them peak in August/September, not February. Donagh Maher and Shane Bourke were two huge pluses aswell, but that seems to have been lost in all the doom and gloom.0 -
Following are rumours that I heard:
Curran is out for a few weeks with the injury he picked up.
That Corbett will be back in two weeks.
There's a lot of discontent in the team over decision making and the management's approach to the game. Apparently Ryan is too quiet.
Take from that what you will.0 -
If they have heavy legs for a big match against your biggest rivals after training 6 nights a week that just isnt right, training should be cut down if thats the case.
The whole idea of training is preparing and being 100% physicially and mentally ready for the match, not being tired from training when its time for the match. They should have heavy legs after the match or hours later, not midway through the match.
Im sure kilkenny are training just as intensly and by god they looked as fresh in the 70th minute as the 1st.
At the end of the day its important to put in alot of training but just because one team may training more than another it doesnt guarntee more sucess. Its not the amount of days or hours put into training, its about training smart...quality training over the quantity of training.0 -
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Again, this is Feb and there is nothing won at this time but the problems are evident for all to see.
The six backs had a good enough day. Donagh was superb and is one that will kick on in my opinion. Cahill was solid along with Curran so the full back line is virtually cast in stone! O'Mahony was huge at center and more than held his own with both wings showing the rest that you have to be willing to go that extra yard at this level.
Ryans approach to the backs is pretty standard. They know their job and just go out and do it! They are great ball winners and are up against the most formidable six forwards to play in unison! The concession of scores and its rate are not the problem. Only KK are regularly putting twenty plus pts against them.
Midfield is where it starts to unravel. I actually think that Ryan and Co are happy with the pairing and expect them to challenge the KK duo eventually but I think that they never will. Indeed, as Tipp gunner has said Young did an adequate job on Fennelly as he was not overly effective but I see that as a reflection of Fennellys game than Youngs influence.
After Tipp Gunners comment about height and trajectory I am now a convert. Everybody seen the KK wing backs catch balls all day over the forwards. Funny that when we were hurling the mantra from the line was simple to that extraordinary talent! If the ball is there you are entitled to pull on it and collateral damage to the back is acceptable!!
Taking a look at the first 15 mins of last years AI it struck me that the ball seemed to break very favourably to KK. But, this was not the case. All the KK players seem to be able to react to fast breaking ball QUICKER than anybody else. If its over a foot or over 15 yds they are on it like..... cats!! The Tipp players enjoy the usual reaction to strange breaks and collect in my view 50 % of that ball but the KK players seem to enjoy an 80% success of collecting that type of ball. I am not sure can this be physically trained into a panel but it happens with alarming regularity to our neighbours! To the casual observer it looks like "lucky breaking ball". Maybe its a hunger. A desire. A need. A will to possess the sliotar but whatever it is Tipp have less of it than KK at the moment.
Because of the standard plan that Tipp seem to operate on, that they will out hurl all opposition, they continually trip up against the KK defence. They are content to bunch it up down the middle and occasionally beat the one on one out the wing and corner. Tipp will find space and "out hurl" the Galways, Limericks and Corks at the moment but Cody has the key and solution to that approach. When we took them in 2010 it was a game that was much more spread out and the forwards got the chance to go one on one with a single back and invariably got the score.
Pa Bourke was our best forward yesterday and took all his frees with ease. McGrath was only ok and the rest were below that. Sorry but O'Brien had a clear cut chance that if the same had been given to any of the KK forwards it was buried. His substitution again no surprise. But it seems that we have little left to replace him..
M0
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