Advice regarding WW2 era German/Swiss watches

o1s1n

Hey guys. I had a bit of a browse of this forum and I couldn't find anything about this specific topic. I'm very interested in buying a German 1940s/WW2 era DH marked watch. Any valuable info I should keep in mind?

I've been bidding on a couple of Glycine watches over the last week but stopped short around the €200 mark as I was unsure what they are actually valued at.

Would love to have it as original as possible. (I really seem to like the look of disintegrating tritium for some reason!)

I've been steering well clear of anything from the Ukraine as have been reading about frankenwatches and don't want to get stung. The US ones seem interesting as a lot of them are probably war trophies..ebay.ch and ebay.de seem to turn up a couple of interesting results too.

So, are there any experts here in this field? Any of you guys have any interesting pieces?

Wibbs

I have a 1940 Naval Kriegsmarine Alpina alright. Was actually looking for a Whermacht DH at the time. Nice watch, but remember they're a small watch(around 30 mm) compared to today's monsters, so if you've big wrists...

So far you're going about it the right way, IE avoiding the eastern european sellers. You do get the odd right one from that source however. They're less faked mostly because they're smaller and less sought out and the collectors tend to know their stuff.

Go for the less well known brands of DH. Grana Glycine etc. They're a lot cheaper than say a Zenith or a Longines. They can be double the price. As you've noted the dials tend to deteriorate. They were a high number, low price order so quality varies a lot. Ironically this also makes them harder to fake as a redial is soooo obvious. Clearly avoid any watch with unit markings on the dial. These are ALL fake. Ditto for avoiding any without their original hands. Try and get one with clear enough glass as replacements are hard to come by as I found to my cost(broke my glass and have had no luck since ). Expect to pay anywhere from 200 to 350 for a half decent one.

If you find any links of ones you're interested in, you could post them here. I'll try and sort the good uns from the dross for you if that helps?

o1s1n

Thanks Wibbs! Some great info in there.

Nice watch by the way. I originally had my heart set on a pure black dial, but some of the lighter ones are really starting to grow on me now. I have a feeling this may end up developing into multiple purchases!

One thing I was wondering is are the crystals on watches from this era glass? I saw a Glycine on ebay last week but there was a nasty stratch right across it.

Actually, here's the auction -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230721351943?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I quite like scratches on this era of watch, but this was a bit too much.

I then came across an easy enough fix for acrylic scratches with toothpaste. But obviously if it's glass then that wouldn't be much use.

Here's a couple of other ones I'd been bidding on but stopped short as I didn't want to go any further until I knew the auctual value. They look legit to me, and the sources seemed good.

If you could even have a look just to see if they are legit and I'm on the right track that'd be fantastic!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320816791193?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290650056534?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Couple of other non Glycine watches -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140668646553?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


http://www.ebay.com/itm/110761026588?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Even though I'm not into restoration, and it's a bit out of my price league at the moment, this Phenix has been calling to me! :pac:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RESTORED-WWII-PHENIX-GERMAN-WEHRMACHT-D-H-GERMAN-1130-WEHRMACHTSWERK-CROC-STRAP-/160679389850?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item25693cea9a

Wibbs

Well the first one with the crazed glass I'd run away from. That looks like a crack. The material on the ones I've handled were acrylic alright or similar from the era. Very brittle if original as I found out. I'd be careful enough with the toothpaste or other scratch removal.

The next two look much better.

The next one... Hmm. When I see "new old stock" I get suspicious. The dial seems way too clean. Even if it had been in a drawer for the last 60 years the dial would age. Usually in stored watches the area of the dial directly under the hands gets quite obviously burned so a "drawer watch may actually age more). They used radium, not tritium and it's a lot more radioactive and will burn a dial. Radium lume decay doesn't tend to go tan brown either and it also breaks down the phosphors that actually glowed. As such radium doesn't do the glowing it powers the phosphors added to the mix. While Tritium has a half life of 12 years IIRC, radiums half life is measured in the 1000's of years. So the radium is still active today. Something to warn a watchmaker about when servicing. Plus that one appears to have a stainless steel case rather than a brass plated one and IIRC that maker used brass. So it may well be a civilian one dressed up? Hard to say.

The next one looks legit alright.

The last restored one for me is a bit too restored. The white lume is all wrong too. IMHO they've lessened the watch. That's just my take mind you.

As an aside restoration can be very much a cultural thing. The German collectors tend to be into restoration a little more than elsewhere. Even considered over restoration to the rest of the vintage watch world(though the French would be close behind). They'd not grumble at a (good) redial compared to say an American collector, but the details of that redial would have to be spot on, not like that last one..

o1s1n

Cheers for checking those auctions! Seems like I'm kind of on the right track

I didn't know these dials have radium and had assumed they were tritium! I've had some old 70's military equipment which were used with airsoft and the optics always had tritium. Thanks for pointing that out, really don't know how it slipped me by when I was reading up on it.

It's worth noting when servicing alright. I would imagine a lot of watchmakers wouldn't go near one!

Actually on the subject of watchmakers, I assume something this old would be in dire need of service? (which brings the whole radium issue back into the light). Or would a lot of them still be running correctly?
Odd as it may sound, I'd be looking to use this as my standard daily watch. So it would need to keep accurate time to a degree!

As for restoration, I think half the appeal of a war watch is that dragged through the mud, bullet ricocheted look. There is history to the scratches and marks. It does lose a lot when you put it to a grinder.

But where do you stop with restoration versus authentic? I see a lot of those eastern european franken ones seem to have new/different movements added. Which doesn't seem nearly as bad as making a wristwatch out of a pocketwatch, but still isn't exactly 100% authentic.

Wibbs

o1s1n wrote: »

I didn't know these dials have radium and had assumed they were tritium! I've had some old 70's military equipment which were used with airsoft and the optics always had tritium. Thanks for pointing that out, really don't know how it slipped me by when I was reading up on it.

Yea tritium is more from the 60's on, before that assume radium. Some old watch dials can give off a fair dose of radiation. It passes through the glass too, unlike tritium which is less energetic. Even so it's pretty safe unless you take it apart and it gets airborne.

It's worth noting when servicing alright. I would imagine a lot of watchmakers wouldn't go near one!

I don't think that would be that much a problem as I'd imagine their training would include precautions for working with these materials. Better to let them know mind you, especially if all they're used to working with is very modern stuff.

Actually on the subject of watchmakers, I assume something this old would be in dire need of service? (which brings the whole radium issue back into the light). Or would a lot of them still be running correctly?
Odd as it may sound, I'd be looking to use this as my standard daily watch. So it would need to keep accurate time to a degree!

I'd work on the principle that it requires a service. Some ebay "services" involve a quick squirt of WD40. I kid thee not. It will start an old gummed up watch and work for a few months, until the cheque clears anyway . It's finding a watchmaker that's local to you can be the problem. I've had great difficulty over the years TBH. I used to send mine to a guy in the UK or a guy in Spain. Both sadly retired. Both very reasonable too.

As for accurate time and as a daily watch? Well my Alpina KM is accurate to ten odd seconds a day. That's without a service. It also has anti shock and anti magnetic built in. Being small it doesn't tend to bump into things and is very comfortable. The only reason the glass broke was me being clumsy putting it on. It fell a couple of inches onto my desk. Before this happened I was wearing it at least a few times a week no bother. It won't be water resistant though so you have to be careful there.

As for restoration, I think half the appeal of a war watch is that dragged through the mud, bullet ricocheted look. There is history to the scratches and marks. It does lose a lot when you put it to a grinder.

+1

But where do you stop with restoration versus authentic? I see a lot of those eastern european franken ones seem to have new/different movements added. Which doesn't seem nearly as bad as making a wristwatch out of a pocketwatch, but still isn't exactly 100% authentic.

Personally I go for originality all the way. The frankenwatches would be alright so long as you know what it is and you buy it as a novelty and at novelty prices. Otherwise no. Even big dealers have been caught out. A cache of large(pre TAG) Heuer chrono wristwatches showed up a few years back and a few US dealers snapped them up and sold them at big money to rich and famous clients. Sadly Heuer never made such watches at the time. It was made easy for the fakers as Heuer used many different third party movements and casings and had a very slapdash serial numbering system. Though a perusal through their catalogs of the time would have told you all you needed to know. Basically they were very well recased third party quality movements badged as Heuer. All from Poland. Some omega seamasters I'd not touch with a bargepole because so many were faked. Ditto for a lot of military watches. Luckily the DH's are far less faked as there so many of them, they're not big money(a real mil spec Rolex could go for 50,000, so someone might jump at a "bargain" for 10,000) so it's not worth it.